Draft Semi Final: LiamO vs Bucketybuck

Frankie Lee

Poll will be added when both teams are up, but votes in the thread with a little reasoning will be the ones that count towards the winner.
Voting finishes 24 hours after the second player's team is announced.
Best of luck to both.

Liam O

I'm very happy with how my team turned out and the style that they will play is one that I feel is very suited to the Premier League.

At the back with Reina in goal there's a man there who probably has the best distribution that the league has seen. His ability on the ball means that the defence can pass it back to him at any time and not feel like it's a waste. Had a great penalty saving ability and made big saves when it mattered in general.

In central defence I have Bruce and Radebe. Both former captains of their clubs during their most successful premier league runs. 2 players who had great ball skills and control for their position with Radebe originally being a center mid and moving back and Bruce, while not lacking any on the ball ability will attack everything and has great heading ability and a goal threat from set pieces to boot.

My full backs have great Premier League pedigree. Winterburn won the league with Arsenal as part of a great defensive line and Petrescu capable at both ends of the field will link up nicely down that side with whoever is in front of him there.

Centre mid is where my biggest strength is and I think will be where I win my matches. Makelele and Alonso are 2 of the standout players in the league since its inception and will control the midfield battle against any opponent with Makelele being Makelele and Alonso the creative force of the team, able to pick out any of the attackers at a moments notice.

On the wings I have Overmars and Nani. Two players capable of playing the wide role or cutting in and creating something from inside. I think for the purpose of this game I'd want Nani creating from out wide and Overmars cutting in as he did to devastating effect in some huge games during his time at Arsenal.

Up front then I have Cantona and Sturridge. Cantona will play just off Sturridge, whose pace will open up space for Cantona to play in. Cantona is capable at both dropping deep and playing further forward which will suit my wingers and his long range threat is always a plus with him. As for Sturridge, he scores goals, no matter where he is, what level he is at, in the PL, he has scored from whatever position he is in. He became less selfish last season so with the pace flanking him always has the creative option too.


Good luck to bucketybuck, but here is how I'll beat him hopefully

Looking at his team I think other than Irwin, Stam and Ronaldo I have better players in every position. Given we are playing the same style this becomes very important.

In the last game I was criticised for the gap between my midfield and forwards, probably my own fault for laying out the formation as I did but I'm not sure where the criticism lies here. Nani, Sturridge, Overmars and Cantona can all dribble from deep, not that I'd want them to have to as Alonso with an out and out DM beside him is free to move around the centre circle and create at will. I think it's a fine system.

Depending on buckety's team I'll add more.

bucketybuck

Sorry for the delay, I was too busy laughing at the idea that Sturridge was better than Jurgen Klinsmann, and Pepe Reina was better than Uefa goalkeeper of the year Jens Lehmann. Anyway...

My team:

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The Tactical battle:

We both do have similar teams, with one major similarity being very solid bases in midfield. For all they are big names, I still think Liam's midfield is far too passive, Makelele and Alonso can sit there scratching all night as far as I'm concerned. Makelele will sit in the centre trying to protect against Frank Lampard or Stephen Gerard running through the middle, but considering they aren't playing he will be a bit useless really. He will want to intercept long passes but I won't be playing them, so, again, have a rest there Claude. Alonso is a great passer of the ball, but who is he passing to? Overmars and Nani will have to come deep to get the ball anyway, so Alonso's range of passing won't be fully utilised in this game. Its a nice midfield for sure, just not the right midfield for this game.

My lads may not be as popular but they are by far the more aggressive pairing. Makelele wants to intercept passes but De Jong is going to get in faces and force mistakes. David Batty will roam around the midfield area either looking for the ball or for trouble, either way is good. Alonso likes time and space, like a lot of other stylish players he might just find he doesn't have any in this game.

This all has a bearing on another area of the field, the area in which this game will be won or lost, the wings! I won't be trying to run through Makelele and Alonso, I will simply go around them, just as Overmars and Nani would like to do to me. But whereas Makelele and Alonso are too passive, Batty and De Jong will be very aggressive in bringing pressure to bear on each side. No matter which side, one will sit and the other will be right out there to double up with the full back. This is their game, they are better at this than their more storied opponents and it will have a major effect on the result.

The wings!

As was said, for both teams the biggest attacking threat is on the wings and sorry but thats a battle I win. Football writers player of the year Ginola has a good case for comparison with Overmars anyway, but Ronaldo and Ginola compared to Overmars and Nani is a plus in my favour, they simply are a better set. But how will that translate in the game? Well, Overmars is Liam's best, but he is also directly up against one of the best full backs in PL history. With Irwin ahead of him and pressure from midfield coming immediately Overmars is in for a tough night. On the other side we have mr inconsistancy himself, Luis Nani, the PL legend that could barely get a game for the last 3 years. I like Nani and will respect him, he could be a menace, but he is not up there with the other PL legends like Ronaldo or Ginola.

He will be marked by O'Shea. Somebody in an earlier round remarked that O'Shea was out of position on the left, seemingly unaware that O'Shea started out as a left back for United and did extremely well there. O'Shea is actually perfect for watching Nani, he is fast, mobile and intelligent. Nani will want to cut in often but O'Shea is very much two-footed and can go either way to keep tabs on him. He will do a good job there.


My best winger is Ronaldo, and while Winterburn is a solid defender he is not good enough for Ronaldo. Winterburn did well as part of the Arsenal defensive unit but by himself he was never top drawer, I think only two England caps would testify to that. I don't need to go on here, Ronaldo wins this battle.
On the other side Ginola takes Petrescu to the cleaners. Petrescu will want to get forward, and like Rafael found out its not a good idea to leave a silky Frenchman lurking without supervision.

Up front

Up front the great Jurgen Klinsmann is easily a match for Bruce and Radabe. Klinsmann and Bruce were of the same era, and in that era Klinsmann was player of the year, that speaks volumes.
Van der Vaart is once again the wildcard. I'm very much aware that people will say that he will be shut down by the midfield two sitting in front of him, but all I want from Van Der Vaart here is to link up play where he can and then pop up with the game winning piece of magic. We all know he is very capable of doing this.

TLDR In conclusion.

I have a better defence. Stam and Johnsen are better than Bruce and Radabe, both in talent and due to having played together so successfully. Irwin is better than Winterburn and O'Shea can match Petrescu. Lehmann is better than Reina by every metric and has the records to prove it.

The Midfields dont threaten each other, but I believe my aggressive pairing work better than his passive pairing in this match.

My wingers are better, for reasons already stated.

Klinsman is better than Sturridge. Cantona is better than Van Der Vaart, but if Van Der Vaart is a wildcard likely to be well marshalled then so is Cantona. Johnsen will be on him like glue and he has the two terriers in front of him.

I think I win!

#15

Both CM units are defensively minded, but Liam O's is of a higher quality. I think Batty and De Jong do enough to stop their team getting completely overrun though. Along with the back 4, they offer enough to keep buck's team competitive in the game and I think he can get at Bruce/Radebe with his attacking unit.
Bucketybuck's team to win the match, although they might be playing on the counter again in this one.

eagle eye

I can't find a big weakness in Liam O's team and I have to vote for him. Petrescu will support the attack and its going to be very hard to get by that defense. Alonso pulling the strings in midfield with Makelele reading any breaks and there to break up play all day long.

Ronaldo is going to cause problems for any team but I've a feeling that Buckeybuck's front four are going to be isolated a lot and not have much possession.

I vote for Liam O here.

Donnielighto

Buckety, just. better defence than liam and feel he'll convert chances more easily

Liam O

I actually feel buckety has played into my hands here, basically given Overmars and Nani free reign to run at his full backs. Ginola and Ronaldo are going to do no defending at all and while my wingers are not good at defending, they will get back at least to put some pressure on. O'Shea against Nani and Petrescu is just going to be incredibly profitable for me.

Sturridge has done more than Klinnsmann ever did in the PL already and Reina was better in pretty much every facet of the game than Lehmann. More clean sheets, better distribution and great penalty saving skills. He claims he's putting Johnsen on Cantona which is going to leave Sturridge so much space for his pace to exploit.

It's weird that he talks about Makelele being great against Gerrard and Lampard but ignores that he's playing Van der Vaart, a far inferior player who plays in that postion. The idea that Makelele is passive is one of the more ridiculous things I've read on here and Alonso was hardly a slouch defensively at covering.

In defence Bruce and Radebe are both better than Johnsen, there should be no constest there, Stam is better than both of them so it should be a wash but Sturridge matches up far better against Stam and Johnsen than Klinsmann does against mine imo. He's not going to get to many headers with them there and Radebe especially was great at interceptions.

Most importantly, Alonso is being written off as a creative threat! I find this ridiculous. In a tight game there's nobody I'd rather have playing his position. Where is buckety's creation from deep going to come from? How's he going to get it to the forwards with Makelele and 2 great defensive full backs there? Overmars and Nani cutting inside will cause him major problems.

bucketybuck

Liam O wrote: »

I actually feel buckety has played into my hands here, basically given Overmars and Nani free reign to run at his full backs. Ginola and Ronaldo are going to do no defending at all and while my wingers are not good at defending, they will get back at least to put some pressure on.

Ginola and Ronaldo will defend just as much as Overmars and Nani, there is no advantage for you there. And why do you say Overmars and Nani have free reign at the full backs when its explicitly stated that, absent any threat from you in the middle, Batty and De Jong will be doubling up on the wingers at every opportunity. A tactical misstep!

Sturridge has done more than Klinnsmann ever did in the PL already

There is no way Dean Sturridge is better than Jurgen Klinsmann, not in any lifetime. Apart from that, Sturridge likes to utilise his pace but he will find very few opportunities to run beyond Stam, we are set up to prevent that.

Reina was better in pretty much every facet of the game than Lehmann. More clean sheets, better distribution and great penalty saving skills.

Jens Lehmann saved penalties to win the FA cup final and get Arsenal to a Champions league final. Clean sheets? The guy holds the record for champions league clean sheets. Lehmann is better in pretty much every facet of the game.

It's weird that he talks about Makelele being great against Gerrard and Lampard but ignores that he's playing Van der Vaart, a far inferior player who plays in that postion.

Van der Vaart is not playing in midfield, thats another tactical misread.

In defence Bruce and Radebe are both better than Johnsen

I disagree, Ronnie Johnsen was vital to the treble side and showed his quality repeatedly. Steve Bruce was a United legend but also quite limited in many ways. Again, the facts speak for themselves.

Most importantly, Alonso is being written off as a creative threat! I find this ridiculous. In a tight game there's nobody I'd rather have playing his position.

Alonso is a creative threat, just not in this game. He has a great range of passing that he will not be able to use. He needs a variation in options but all he will have as an outlet is the two wingers, so he will end up doing the same low passes that Batty and De Jong will be doing to my guys. He certainly won't be pinging long balls into space or in behind, that space just isn't there. He can try and hit Cantona, but Cantona is boxed in by four defensive players, he is welcome to try that route.

If Alonso sits back hoping to spray long passes he has nobody to hit, if he moves forward past centre midfield David Batty will come out and kick his ankles. His influence will be limited here.

jem

Interesting battle:
Renia far better in every way to lehiman who was liable to be excellent or pure sh1t
winterburn=O shea
Irwin way better than dan petrescu ( who was decent)
Stam best of cb's with bruce and radabe next best with johnson a poor 4th.
Far prefer Liamo's center mid bucketybucks very limited and more than a fair chance that Batty will either get sent off or give away a penalty (or both)
overmars shade's Ginola,
ronaldo v nani- lol
cantona way ahead of van der vart
likewise while sturrage is a decent striker klinsman had it all as a striker, pace, skill, ability in the air. IMHO a top top player.

In summary while bucketybuck's front 4 is far superior and Back 4's levelish.
Bucketybuck's problem would be geting his front 4 the dam ball.
Also think that makelele would sit watching for ronaldo and would cut out a huge amount of the ball before it got to him.

close win for liamo

Skylinehead

jem wrote: »

Interesting battle:
Renia far better in every way to lehiman who was liable to be excellent or pure sh1t

I'll do my analysis later, but I'm picking up on this now - it's hilariously wrong. You're talking about the man who displaced Oliver Kahn, didn't concede a goal in the Champions League knockouts in 2006 (against some damn good teams too), has actually won something of note unlike Reina, UEFA goalkeeper of the year twice and was in the Fifa World Cup team of the tournament in 2006. And Reina is "far better"? How?

v3ttel

I've gone for LiamO. I much prefer the balance of his side. Makalele and Alonso complement each other nicely. Sturridge is a proven goalscorer as long as he is fit. Overmars and Cantona are two of the most talented players to ever play in the Premier League.

It's difficult to overlook any side with Ronaldo though, but he needs to be given the platform to perform. Alonso can really make a team tick. De Jong and Batty are no where near his level in that regard, and Makalele is better defensively than both. It seems like a pairing that would struggle to retain possession at the best of times. I think they are there to offset the zero defensive effort of Ginola & Ronaldo, but I prefer a more rounded approach and a better balance between attack and defense.

LuckyLloyd

Two great teams.

The difference for me would ultimately be Buckety's defence. I think that center back pairing is very strong and Batty and DeJong will be providing a big rampart infront. I think that would provide a slight edge in a thrilling encounter.

jem

Skylinehead wrote: »

I'll do my analysis later, but I'm picking up on this now - it's hilariously wrong. You're talking about the man who displaced Oliver Kahn, didn't concede a goal in the Champions League knockouts in 2006 (against some damn good teams too), has actually won something of note unlike Reina, UEFA goalkeeper of the year twice and was in the Fifa World Cup team of the tournament in 2006. And Reina is "far better"? How?

well for example Pepe won the Pl golden glove award 3 years in a row.
108 of the 219 appearances being clean sheets.
He was an excellent shot and penalty stopper with excellent distribution.
Jans was an excellent goalie who played behind a superb defense. However he was very very liable to have a brain fart and was a liability IMHO.
BYTW lehmann replaced Kann because Kann was retiring

bucketybuck

jem wrote: »

However he was very very liable to have a brain fart and was a liability IMHO.

This simply isn't true. I don't mind anybody believing Reina is better than Lehmann, but at least do so for valid reasons.

Skylinehead

jem wrote: »

well for example Pepe won the Pl golden glove award 3 years in a row.
108 of the 219 appearances being clean sheets.
He was an excellent shot and penalty stopper with excellent distribution.
Jans was an excellent goalie who played behind a superb defense. However he was very very liable to have a brain fart and was a liability IMHO.
BYTW lehmann replaced Kann because Kann was retiring

Don't use the "excellent defence" argument, or we might as well dismiss Buffon etc as well. You don't become the mainstay of the German national team by being a "liability" - you're calling him an excellent goalie and a liability in the same post, which is it? They're mutually exclusive. Lehmann was the reason why Arsenal got to their first CL final, he played a massive part in going unbeaten for an entire league season, and was an excellent defensive organiser. And don't forget, Reina forgot how to dive for his last two Liverpool seasons. Kahn didn't retire until 2006, Lehmann had got in by that point. I'm not going to derail the thread any more so this is the last I'll speak on the matter.

Ferris_Bueller

Having rated both teams players out of ten, I have Liam O winning 88 to 83. Two similar teams in that they are playing two holding midfielders and both teams will be relying on their wingers a lot, but both teams best wingers (Ronaldo & Overmars) are coming up against pretty good full backs, Ronaldo will still get a lot of joy against Winterburn though. Both teams have overall solid defences but I wouldn't class either as outstanding. Stam and Irwin are great defenders but O'Shea is a weak link and I'm unsure on Johnsen, didn't even make 100 appearances for United, was just a squad player there really. While Liamo O's defence are all quite good, but none at an elite level apart from maybe Winterburn. Would also rate Reina ahead of Lehmann, said during the draft picks that I didn't rate Lehmann as a great keeper.

Klinsmann and Sturridge are both players I'm not 100 percent sold on, with both only really having one or two good seasons in the league. Great players during that spell all the same but there are much better forwards in the draft than the both of them. Cantona will be a big boost to Liam Os team as I think he could be what seperates the sides. Ultimately I think Liams team just has that bit more quality about them and I'll opt for him to shade it 1-0, with a moment of magic from Cantona.

Liam O

Am I missing something here? German national team? Champions League? All being used to put a keeper ahead of another who in the PL kept a clean sheet almost every other game?

Might have been a misspelling also but I have Daniel Sturridge, not Dean, 39 PL goals in 55 games since his move to Bolton in 2011, helping his team to 2nd place and not looking out of place beside Suarez.

Klinsmann got 30 in his 55 PL games though, in a less competitive league too. Not sure why people have him ahead, unless they are forgetting it's Premier League.

Skylinehead

Liam O wrote: »

Am I missing something here? German national team? Champions League? All being used to put a keeper ahead of another who in the PL kept a clean sheet almost every other game?

All spanning the time Lehmann was in the Premier League, no? It's relevant to determining how good the player was.

bucketybuck

Liam O wrote: »

Am I missing something here? German national team? Champions League? All being used to put a keeper ahead of another who in the PL kept a clean sheet almost every other game?

Because they are concrete examples that show his quality, as opposed to vague statements like "better in pretty much every facet of the game". I could offer vague statements about Lehmann but he has the achievements to illustrate his success, of course they are going to be noted.

Klinsmann got 30 in his 55 PL games though, in a less competitive league too. Not sure why people have him ahead, unless they are forgetting it's Premier League.

Great, it was a less competitive league. That diminishes Bruce, Cantona, Winterburn, Petrescu and Radabe so!

Blatter

Buckety for me. Ronaldo and buckety's superior defence to make the difference.

Winston Payne

This would be a very stodgy game I think. The central creative figure is well looked after on both sides and both defences are deep, meaning little space in behind. In that case, you have to assess the strength of each defence and which side is more capable of creating a moment of magic out of nothing to break the other side down. And I think bucketybuck edges it in both. Nani and Overmars aren't going to get much joy in this game and I think Ginola and Ronaldo have more potential as wingers to break open Liam O's defence. bucketybuck's central defensive partnership are well suited to the strikers facing them, and I think with Ginola coming off the line and Irwin and Ronaldo in tandem on the left he'd squeeze a goal somewhere. Klinsmann's movement off Bruce is also a source of danger. bucketybuck wins this 1-0 for me.

redzerdrog

Liamo wins this for me I think Alonso will dictate the game from the middle and don't see where Buckety creativity will come from in midfield. Also is Van Der vaart isnt playing as an attacking midfielder I fail to see what the point of him being on the pitch as he was never a striker. It seems like carrying someone for the sake of it.

Frankie Lee

Is this 5-5 with Liam O winning the public vote?