Isis burn pilot alive..

ireland.man

Tugboats wrote: »

I'm Irish dude. Hundreds of thousands took to the streets of Ireland in 2003 i think it was. I'm not seeing that public anger now. I dont think you can compare a lecture or meeting to that level of "support"

I thought you lived in the States?

But anyway, there's been a resurgence in the anti-war movement in the past few years due to ISIS and Syria. There's many anti-war activists who became politicised in 2003 who are now been involved directly in supporting refugees all around the ME.

There were a handful of huge marches against the war in 2003 but in actuality the day to day running of the anti-war movement was always quite small and invisible. The difference then and now is the lack of media attention. So don't interpret the lack of marches on Fox News or RTE as evidence of disinterest.

jobbridge4life

ireland.man wrote: »

I thought you lived in the States?

But anyway, there's been a resurgence in the anti-war movement in the past few years due to ISIS and Syria. There's many anti-war activists who became politicised in 2003 who are now been involved directly in supporting refugees all around the ME.

There were a handful of huge marches against the war in 2003 but in actuality the day to day running of the anti-war movement was always quite small and invisible. The difference then and now is the lack of media attention. So don't interpret the lack of marches on Fox News or RTE as evidence of disinterest.

Is it all military action of any kind against ISIS that you oppose?

NotYourYear20

Trigger Happy wrote: »

I would normally be in the 'peace man' camp and against all wars.

But this shower of mudda fckers are evil and bad. They need to be wiped out and at times like this I miss George W....I never thought I would say that.

Yes they are sick, twisted evil bastárds. But let's not forget, the war-monger Bush created the conditions that created the ISIS scum.

jobbridge4life

NotYourYear20 wrote: »

Yes they are sick, twisted evil bastárds. But let's not forget, the war-monger Bush created the conditions that created the ISIS scum.

What conditions were they?

If only things could be like they were before GWB when instead of a lot of Iraq being under a blood thirsty murderous regime the entire country was. Much better.

liam24

jobbridge4life wrote: »

What conditions were they?

If only things could be like they were before GWB when instead of a lot of Iraq being under a blood thirsty murderous regime the entire country was. Much better.

I can't believe there are still idiots around justifying the Iraq war. It's like the flat-earth society.

PeteFalk78

NotYourYear20 wrote: »

But let's not forget, the war-monger Bush created the conditions that created the ISIS scum.

If that was true then why is it even relevant?

jobbridge4life

liam24 wrote: »

I can't believe there are still idiots around justifying the Iraq war. It's like the flat-earth society.

I am not really trying to justify anything, that is not my aim. I am trying to challenge and individual on a fairly substantial (and oft repeated) assertion that is too often accepted without any scrutiny.

Tugboats

NotYourYear20 wrote: »

Yes they are sick, twisted evil bastárds. But let's not forget, the war-monger Bush created the conditions that created the ISIS scum.

and back we go again. Blaming George Bush may sit well with you and give you a warm smug feeling at night but I don't think it will bring any comfort those being bombed today.

Do you realize that Syria was bombed this morning by Jordan and their leaders are making comments that wouldn't even pass the lips of Bush? Without referring to George Bush what should be done today and going forward?

liam24

jobbridge4life wrote: »

I am not really trying to justify anything, that is not my aim. I am trying to challenge and individual on a fairly substantial (and oft repeated) assertion that is too often accepted without any scrutiny.

If Western powers hadn't been interfering in the Middle East for the last century, encouraging resentment and crazed Islamic nationalism, these countries would be as well-adjusted as Indonesia today.

Maybe it's a good time to start on that road.

ireland.man

jobbridge4life wrote: »

I am not really trying to justify anything, that is not my aim. I am trying to challenge and individual on a fairly substantial (and oft repeated) assertion that is too often accepted without any scrutiny.

What claim exactly- can you define it? And what supports your opposition to the oft repeated assertion?

jobbridge4life

liam24 wrote: »

If Western powers hadn't been interfering in the Middle East for the last century, encouraging resentment and crazed Islamic nationalism, these countries would be as well-adjusted as Indonesia today.

Maybe it's a good time to start on that road.

Indonesia... which only became a democracy in 1999? Which is still only a fledgling democracy? Indonesia where Al Qaeda associated terrorists planned and excuted the Bali bombings? Not to mention bombing Jakarta itself as recently as 09?

liam24

jobbridge4life wrote: »

Indonesia... which only became a democracy in 1999? Which is still only a fledgling democracy? Indonesia where Al Qaeda associated terrorists planned and excuted the Bali bombings? Not to mention bombing Jakarta itself as recently as 09?

Would you rather live in Indonesia or Syria?

Timberrrrrrrr

liam24 wrote: »

If Western powers hadn't been interfering in the Middle East for the last century, encouraging resentment and crazed Islamic nationalism, these countries would be as well-adjusted as Indonesia today.

Maybe it's a good time to start on that road.

Indonesia, Great lads altogether

Prisoners (particularly those convicted of murder, terrorism or drug trafficking offences) spend a long time languishing in prison before their sentence is finally carried out. Usually their final appeal has been exhausted through the courts and President. Prisoners and their families are notified 72 hours in advance of their pending execution.[4] They are usually transferred to Nusa Kambangan island.[4] They are woken up in the middle of the night and taken to a remote (and undisclosed) location and executed by firing squad. The method has not changed since 1964.[5]

Capital punishment is carried out in Indonesia by a firing squad. The prisoner blindfolded is led to a grassy area where they have an option to kneel or stand.[5] The 12 armed executioners shoot the prisoner in the chest from a range of five to ten metres.[5] Only three live bullets and the rest fire blanks.[5] If the prisoner does not die, the Commander is required to issue a final bullet to the prisoner's head.[6]

PeteFalk78

liam24 wrote: »

I can't believe there are still idiots around justifying the Iraq war. It's like the flat-earth society.

And then there are idiots who who think that American and George Bush are to blame for all forms of terrorism.

BlaasForRafa

Egginacup wrote: »

Why are you bringing the Russians into this? I'm talking about hypocrisy and war reparations.
"So America is at fault for everything, eh?" ..this is the typical get-out clause in a debate when someone is faced with truths they don't like. They throw some shabby sweeping statement like that out there. I don't know if it's supposed to deflect or if it has any purpose other than to hide from the facts presented but it certainly is a valueless comment.

I mention the russians because you seem to think america is the only one who should have blame apportioned to it when the reality is that blame can be handed out to a number of parties. You seem to be fixated on being vehemently anti-western and just coincidentally NEVER seem to level any blame at all on the Russians when the facts say that they deserve quite a share..

Speaking of facts, how about you provide some evidence for that oil-pipeline story in afghanistan you were going on about.

liam24

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Indonesia, Great lads altogether

The USA and China have the death penalty too.

liam24

PeteFalk78 wrote: »

And then there are idiots who who think that American and George Bush are to blame for all forms of terrorism.

George Bush launched a useless geopolitically catastrophic war which destroyed the fragile equilibrium of the Middle East and has led to endless conflict ever since.

It also radicalized a generation of young men. If it hadn't been for that war, I'm convinced that whenever the Arab Spring came it would have been far more successful.

jobbridge4life

liam24 wrote: »

Would you rather live in Indonesia or Syria?

That is completely disingenuous and well you know it.

Meanwhile no one has been able to list the conditions that lead to the emergence of ISIS.

jobbridge4life

liam24 wrote: »

George Bush launched a useless geopolitically catastrophic war which destroyed the fragile equilibrium of the Middle East and has led to endless conflict ever since.

Opposed to the tranquility that existed before hand?

liam24

jobbridge4life wrote: »

Opposed to the tranquility that existed before hand?

So are you suggesting that he didn't make it worse?

ireland.man

jobbridge4life wrote: »

Opposed to the tranquility that existed before hand?

Do you believe the Iraq War was good for the region?

liam24

jobbridge4life wrote: »

That is completely disingenuous and well you know it.

Meanwhile no one has been able to list the conditions that lead to the emergence of ISIS.

Indonesia is paradise compared to most of the Middle East. And it's a Muslim country. How did that happen? Because it's been able to control its own affairs for the last few decades.

PeteFalk78

liam24 wrote: »

..... which destroyed the fragile equilibrium of the Middle East and has led to endless conflict ever since.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_modern_conflicts_in_the_Middle_East

liam24

PeteFalk78 wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_modern_conflicts_in_the_Middle_East

So look at that list again, and this time look at the casualties. That will tell you almost everything you need to know about conflict in the Middle East.

Tugboats

PeteFalk78 wrote: »

And then there are idiots who who think that American and George Bush are to blame for all forms of terrorism.

Deep down most people love him. He was the Jack Charlton, Italia90 and Usa94 for a generation of anti war protesters. None of them will forget the buzz and magical moments of the 2003-4 marches

conorhal

NotYourYear20 wrote: »

Yes they are sick, twisted evil bastárds. But let's not forget, the war-monger Bush created the conditions that created the ISIS scum.

That's no more or less a simplistic view of a complex geo-political situation then that of people shouting 'nuke 'em all! Derp!'

Equal players in this tragedy are the sectarian tensions between the Shia and Sunni adherents, the Saudi and Qatar governments that have funded extremism, the Muslim Brotherhood, Islam's old testement outlook and yes U.S. foreign policy among a myriad of other factors.

Karl Stein

liam24 wrote: »

encouraging ... crazed Islamic nationalism

Actually western forces despised Nationalism in the middle east and chose to work with Monarchies, dictators and whabbi-fascists to suppress it. Nationalism is anti-imperialist and anti-colonial which is the antithesis of what the west was doing in the Middle East then and since.

BlaasForRafa

liam24 wrote: »

If Western powers hadn't been interfering in the Middle East for the last century, encouraging resentment and crazed Islamic nationalism, these countries would be as well-adjusted as Indonesia today.

Really? The west didn't create the Sunni-Shia divide, those lads have been going at it since the 7th century. Saddam and Assad's regimes clamped down on it through the liberal use of terror but it was bound to boil over eventually. Btw don't even think I'm defending GWB or Blair here, both of them were muppets.

liam24

Karl Stein wrote: »

Actually western forces despised Nationalism in the middle east and chose to work with Monarchies, dictators and whabbi-fascists to suppress it. Nationalism is anti-imperialist and anti-colonial which is the antithesis of what the west was doing in the Middle East then and since.

Yes, that's my point. The crazy Islamic fundamentalism we see today is nothing but an extreme pan-Islamic nationalism which is a reaction to the perception of powerlessness arising out of the West's wicked and excessive interventions in the region. My thesis is that if they'd left those countries to go their own way, and hadn't supported the establishment of Israel, we would have a much better adjusted Middle East. Just look at how America's interference ****ed up Latin America for most of the 20th century.

liam24

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Really? The west didn't create the Sunni-Shia divide, those lads have been going at it since the 7th century. Saddam and Assad's regimes clamped down on it through the liberal use of terror but it was bound to boil over eventually. Btw don't even think I'm defending GWB or Blair here, both of them were muppets.

In a less radicalized Middle East, that might be about as relevant as the difference between Catholics and Protestants.