Isis burn pilot alive..

ireland.man

Tugboats wrote: »

yes
yes
yes.

But Timberrrrrrrrrrr should not questioning my bloodlust when he is calling for war

Well I'm guessing you're a teenager having a bit of a laugh on this thread. If you are, it's sad you'd spend so much time here just to rile others up instead of debating and engaging people.

But if you're being serious, why do you care so much about one side in this debate when you have no interest in the topic being debated? It's like fervently hating a sports team in a sport you have no interest in.

Tugboats

ireland.man wrote: »

Well I'm guessing you're a teenager having a bit of a laugh on this thread. If you are, it's sad you'd spend so much time here just to rile others up instead of debating and engaging people.

But if you're being serious, why do you care so much about one side in this debate when you have no interest in the topic being debated? It's like fervently hating a sports team in a sport you have no interest in.

I answered that before.

I think Timberrrrrrrrrrr is a vile creature who thinks hes better than people who have called for massive airstrikes in Syria. When questioned on his policy he ducks and dives when the truth is that he supports a war. Hes not morally better than anyone just because the war he supports would cause less civilian causalities.

Like so many others he wont say a word about Jordan because its not fashionable and deep down hes devastated that at the moment its not America in the spotlight and making the aggressive comments

ireland.man

Tugboats wrote: »

Like so many others he wont say a word about Jordan because its not fashionable and deep down hes devastated that at the moment its not America in the spotlight and making the aggressive comments

Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence.

If you can't see high profile anti-war opinions around this current situation or leftwing critical opinions against the regime in Jordan in the media you choose to watch and read, then maybe you need to expand your sources of information.

You've asked a lot of questions about the anti-war movement and the opinions of those activists and the other opponents of the previous Western military interventions in the Middle East. The thing is, you're not asking particularly tricky questions or finding inconsistencies in the ideology of those people you're deriding! When you ask 'where is the anti-war protesters now?' it's not a brilliant insight into the hypocrazy of those people but a lack of knowledge on your part. You seem to believe that if you don't see anti-war sentiment being displayed on mainstream television, then therefore it doesn't exist.

Tugboats

ireland.man wrote: »

Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence.

If you can't see high profile anti-war opinions around this current situation or leftwing critical opinions against the regime in Jordan in the media you choose to watch and read, then maybe you need to expand your sources of information.

You've asked a lot of questions about the anti-war movement and the opinions of those activists and the other opponents of the previous Western military interventions in the Middle East. The thing is, you're not asking particularly tricky questions or finding inconsistencies in the ideology of those people you're deriding! When you ask 'where is the anti-war protesters now?' it's not a brilliant insight into the hypocrazy of those people but a lack of knowledge on your part. You seem to believe that if you don't see anti-war sentiment being displayed on mainstream television, then therefore it doesn't exist.

and why the absence? people on this thread are moaning about bombs that were dropped in 2003 yet nobody seems to raise any concerns about bombs that are dropping right now. Why is this?

Do you agree if Obama made aggressive comments similar to what King Abdullah said this place would explode? At the moment its silence.

I sent 11 emails yesterday asking various groups and politicians about if theres plans, demos, talks or even concerns about Jordans military campaign and the comments coming from their leadership. I will post up the replies here

Tugboats

ireland.man wrote: »

Sorry, let me ask properly.

Are you talking about the lack of an anti-war movement in your country, or in Ireland? I can see an active anti-war movement in Ireland which is involved in this issue around ISIS, particularly in relation to giving support to the Kurds, having Kurdish political figures give talks here, etc.

Do you see any similar movement in your country compared to how intense it was during the protests in 2003?

There's a gulf between the cultures of liberals in America and the ones here in Europe.

Id be hopeful that my 11 emails have covered some of these but is there any Irish anti-war movement webistes/ contact details/ groups that you could share with me? Maybe I have missed some...

ireland.man

Tugboats wrote: »

and why the absence? people on this thread are moaning about bombs that were dropped in 2003 yet nobody seems to raise any concerns about bombs that are dropping right now. Why is this?

Complaining about bombs dropped because those bombs were a significant factor in paving the way for Al Qaeda in Iraq to develop and morph into ISIS, the reason for this thread.

Tugboats wrote: »

Do you agree if Obama made aggressive comments similar to what King Abdullah said this place would explode? At the moment its silence.

Obama didn't simply say more aggressive things, he's bombed more places than the Jordanians. Again, you're confused by how the media present the situation.

Tugboats wrote: »

I sent 11 emails yesterday asking various groups and politicians about if theres plans, demos, talks or even concerns about Jordans military campaign and the comments coming from their leadership. I will post up the replies here

You're seriously confused by a lack of visible anger in the West specifically against one single, smaller actor in a massive geo-political upheaval? Evil giants like Saudi Arabia are allied with the West against ISIS but you want people to single out Jordan alone for attention rather than a general anti-war approach?

I'd think very carefully about the nuances of the situation before embarrassing yourself by sending ill-informed letters to very serious-minded individuals.

jobbridge4life

I find it fantastic that some of the same people who are bemoaning the concept of action to address the threat posed by ISIS simultaneously bemoan the lack of action to confront Saudi Arabia... Its like the same people who complain about America interfering in xyz place and then cry out about the failure of the international community to deal with situations like Rwanda or Sri Lanka.

Tugboats

ireland.man wrote: »

Complaining about bombs dropped because those bombs were a significant factor in paving the way for Al Qaeda in Iraq to develop and morph into ISIS, the reason for this thread.



Obama didn't simply say more aggressive things, he's bombed more places than the Jordanians. Again, you're confused by how the media present the situation.



You're seriously confused by a lack of visible anger in the West specifically against one single, smaller actor in a massive geo-political upheaval? Evil giants like Saudi Arabia are allied with the West against ISIS but you want people to single out Jordan alone for attention rather than a general anti-war approach?

I'd think very carefully about the nuances of the situation before embarrassing yourself by sending ill-informed letters to very serious-minded individuals.

I would have thought a bomb being dropped is a bomb and those who are anti war and worried about civilian causalities would be concerned about this even if its dropped by a small player

ireland.man

jobbridge4life wrote: »

I find it fantastic that some of the same people who are bemoaning the concept of action to address the threat posed by ISIS simultaneously bemoan the lack of action to confront Saudi Arabia... Its like the same people who complain about America interfering in xyz place and then cry out about the failure of the international community to deal with situations like Rwanda or Sri Lanka.

Yeah, weird, isn't it? It's as if they think different political situations require different political solutions!

ireland.man

Tugboats wrote: »

I would have thought a bomb being dropped is a bomb and those who are anti war and worried about civilian causalities would be concerned about this even if its dropped by a small player

Huh? Who said anything about equivalency or lack thereof between big and small players?

Tugboats

ireland.man wrote: »

Complaining about bombs dropped because those bombs were a significant factor in paving the way for Al Qaeda in Iraq to develop and morph into ISIS, the reason for this thread.



Obama didn't simply say more aggressive things, he's bombed more places than the Jordanians. Again, you're confused by how the media present the situation.



You're seriously confused by a lack of visible anger in the West specifically against one single, smaller actor in a massive geo-political upheaval? Evil giants like Saudi Arabia are allied with the West against ISIS but you want people to single out Jordan alone for attention rather than a general anti-war approach?

I'd think very carefully about the nuances of the situation before embarrassing yourself by sending ill-informed letters to very serious-minded individuals.

I will take the chance of making a fool of myself. Any chance you could point me in the right direction of the very serious minded and very active Irish anti movement groups/individuals?. If you dont want to do it for me it may be of benefit to some people on this thread who would like to join the movement but dont know where to start so you be helping them

ireland.man

Tugboats wrote: »

I would have thought a bomb being dropped is a bomb and those who are anti war and worried about civilian causalities would be concerned about this even if its dropped by a small player

How would you define, 'the anti-war movement'? Who are they exactly? Do you see one monolithic group or a vague collection of groups across the world based around common concerns? We should've defined it at the start...

Secondly, why do you believe anti-war individuals would not be concerned about deaths of civilians in Iraq and Syria? Is it because you haven't seen protests on the media? Do you believe the protest act itself is the only gauge for action by anti-war individuals and groups?

Tugboats

ireland.man wrote: »

How would you define, 'the anti-war movement'? Who are they exactly? Do you see one monolithic group or a vague collection of groups across the world based around common concerns? We should've defined it at the start...

Secondly, why do you believe anti-war individuals would not be concerned about deaths of civilians in Iraq and Syria? Is it because you haven't seen protests on the media? Do you believe the protest act itself is the only gauge for action by anti-war individuals and groups?

You used the term active anti-war movement yesterday. Thats why Im asking you is it a public group or some secretive serious minded individuals or just individuals doing different things?

If i was passionate about anti-war and I wanted to join up with like minded individuals google would tell that my best bet in Ireland would be http://irishantiwar.org/. Are these an active serious minded group? Im only asking because i dont know.

Protest could be useful because it puts you in the public eye and that can be good for highlighting your issue and raising money. Many people go about their day oblivious to whats going on but would want to help if the issue was thrown in their faces.

jobbridge4life

ireland.man wrote: »

Yeah, weird, isn't it? It's as if they think different political situations require different political solutions!

Where in my post did I suggest a one size fits all approach?

I'll ask again Ireland.man is it all military action to oppose ISIS that you object to?

ireland.man

jobbridge4life wrote: »

Where in my post did I suggest a one size fits all approach?

I'll ask again Ireland.man is it all military action to oppose ISIS that you object to?

You scoffed at people who might support military intervention in say Rwanda but oppose it in pre-2003 Iraq.

I don't oppose the use of force to combat ISIS. I would hope we would employ more intelligent tactics than what have failed us in the past 15 years in Afghanistan and Iraq.

ireland.man

Tugboats wrote: »

You used the term active anti-war movement yesterday. Thats why Im asking you is it a public group or some secretive serious minded individuals or just individuals doing different things?

If i was passionate about anti-war and I wanted to join up with like minded individuals google would tell that my best bet in Ireland would be http://irishantiwar.org/. Are these an active serious minded group? Im only asking because i dont know.

Protest could be useful because it puts you in the public eye and that can be good for highlighting your issue and raising money. Many people go about their day oblivious to whats going on but would want to help if the issue was thrown in their faces.

Ok, so now you don't even know what you mean by anti-war protesters. What exactly is your thesis?

jobbridge4life

ireland.man wrote: »

I don't oppose the use of force to combat ISIS.

Even to recapture the territory they have seized? Even to prevent further massacres?

ireland.man wrote: »

I would hope we would employ more intelligent tactics than what have failed us in the past 15 years in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Such as? (also I am genuinely interested in the discussion and am not trying to have a go or anything. I definitely consider myself anti-war but do think force has a place some of the time)

ireland.man

jobbridge4life wrote: »

Even to recapture the territory they have seized? Even to prevent further massacres?



Such as? (also I am genuinely interested in the discussion and am not trying to have a go or anything. I definitely consider myself anti-war but do think force has a place some of the time)

I know you're not having a go so don't worry! But simply put, I'd say I'm more than happy to see the Peshmerga supported by Western airstrikes and for them to eventually set up a functioning state for the Kurds.

I'd like to see a massive endeavour by all concerned to deal with the refugee problems in Turkey and Lebanon and for force to be used if necessary to protect the routes taken by displaced persons and to close the borders to foreign jihadists entering the battlefields.

I hope to see ISIS implode eventually due to its inability to govern the areas it controls. I think this would be the ideal scenario and would be dependent on the Sunni tribes rising up against them but this would be very unlikely is the West is involved in large scale bombing runs. The Taliban receive huge propaganda boosts by NATO airstrikes and any accidental support for the cause of ISIS would be a disaster if we hoping they are overthrown.

If I thought bombing Raqqa would save more lives than it took, then I'd be for that so I'm definitely not a pacifist.

So how do you feel about posters like tugboats stating they doesn't care about civilian causalities as long as ISIS is eliminated?

Tugboats

ireland.man wrote: »

Ok, so now you don't even know what you mean by anti-war protesters. What exactly is your thesis?

I do know but unsure of this active movement that you speak of. I asked you is http://irishantiwar.org/ an example of an active movement of serious minded people and you wont seem to answer or maybe you don't know who that particular are?

When I originally had a go at the anti war protesters it was the hundreds of thousands on the streets that i was talking about that now seemed to have gone silent. Later in the thread you corrected me by saying not to judge it by those marches and that there is an active movement currently in Ireland doing great work. I'm not being insulting or trying to make a point I'm just asking you.

ireland.man

Tugboats wrote: »

I do know but unsure of this active movement that you speak of. I asked you is http://irishantiwar.org/ an example of an active movement of serious minded people and you wont seem to answer or maybe you don't know who that particular are?

When I originally had a go at the anti war protesters it was the hundreds of thousands on the streets that i was talking about that now seemed to have gone silent. Later in the thread you corrected me by saying not to judge it by those marches and that there is an active movement currently in Ireland doing great work. I'm not being insulting or trying to make a point I'm just asking you.

If you can't define what the hell you've been talking about for days, then I'm worried what it is you put into those emails to different individuals and groups!

Tugboats

ireland.man wrote: »

If you can't define what the hell you've been talking about for days, then I'm worried what it is you put into those emails to different individuals and groups!

again no answer

ireland.man

Tugboats wrote: »

again no answer

I'll answer any question you have but come on, you've forgotten what your point was! Properly explain your point?

jobbridge4life

UN reporting ISIS have beheaded, crucified and buried alive children.

http://www.vocativ.com/world/isis-2/isis-war-children/

Tugboats

ireland.man wrote: »

I'll answer any question you have but come on, you've forgotten what your point was! Properly explain your point?

I was having a go at anti war protesters who work George Bush Masks, waved flags in their thousands in 2003 and was wondering why they have seemed to fall silent now.

You corrected me by telling me not to judge it by those public marches and now there is a very active anti war movement in Ireland who do great work. I think you mentioned they had anti isis speakers, Kurdish speakers and there was fundraising(i think. Will have to double check the post). Is there plans to have speakers in the future?

today you told me there is some very serious minded individuals in the movement and I'm interested to hear their views. Without insulting you, trying to make a smart arsed comment or a dig I'm simply asking is http://irishantiwar.org/ part of the active movement or is there a better example?

ireland.man

Tugboats wrote: »

I was having a go at anti war protesters who work George Bush Masks, waved flags in their thousands in 2003 and was wondering why they have seemed to fall silent now.

You corrected me by telling me not to judge it by those public marches and now there is a very active anti war movement in Ireland who do great work. I think you mentioned they had anti isis speakers, Kurdish speakers and there was fundraising(i think. Will have to double check the post). Is there plans to have speakers in the future?

today you told me there is some very serious minded individuals in the movement and I'm interested to hear their views. Without insulting you, trying to make a smart arsed comment or a dig I'm simply asking is http://irishantiwar.org/ part of the active movement or is there a better example?

You're asking me to provide you with evidence for YOUR argument. Debates don't work that way.

Your problem is that you have a fuzzy understanding of what the anti-war movements are, you describe them as people who had Bush masks and flags and marched once in 2003. Can you tell me what they should be doing right now and against whom in order to satisfy your standard for 'consistency'?

ireland.man

Tugboats wrote: »

I do know but unsure of this active movement that you speak of. I asked you is http://irishantiwar.org/ an example of an active movement of serious minded people and you wont seem to answer or maybe you don't know who that particular are?

When I originally had a go at the anti war protesters it was the hundreds of thousands on the streets that i was talking about that now seemed to have gone silent. Later in the thread you corrected me by saying not to judge it by those marches and that there is an active movement currently in Ireland doing great work. I'm not being insulting or trying to make a point I'm just asking you.

Seriously, post up the text of the emails you sent groups yesterday. I'd love to see what you asked people so I have a clearer idea of what troubles you.

Tugboats

ireland.man wrote: »

You're asking me to provide you with evidence for YOUR argument. Debates don't work that way.

Your problem is that you have a fuzzy understanding of what the anti-war movements are, you describe them as people who had Bush masks and flags and marched once in 2003. Can you tell me what they should be doing right now and against whom in order to satisfy your standard for 'consistency'?

I don't want evidence for an argument with you. I told you in my last post that you already CORRECTED me. I just want to know who the group or individual is that has organised and done great work with having public speakers, showing support for the Kurds and i presume many other things that I don't know about

DarkyHughes

The Ballyseedy massacre of tying 8 people to a bomb & blow them was a more barbaric act imo & carried out by "our" own armed forces.

And the people who want a coalition force to go in "hard" against these scumbags should remember the last time that happened it helped create the conditions for ISIS to flourish. God knows what type sickos they'd help spawn if they went in a 3rd time.

RobYourBuilder

The ISIS are claiming that the 26 year old American women that they were holding hostage has been killed by the Jordanian airstrikes.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/07/world/middleeast/isis-claims-american-hostage-killed-by-jordanian-retaliation-bombings.html?_r=1

Not that you can believe anything the ISIS say. It's likely that they murdered her long ago.

Nodin

Tugboats wrote: »

I was having a go at anti war protesters who work George Bush Masks, waved flags in their thousands in 2003 and was wondering why they have seemed to fall silent now.

You corrected me by telling me not to judge it by those public marches and now there is a very active anti war movement in Ireland who do great work. I think you mentioned they had anti isis speakers, Kurdish speakers and there was fundraising(i think. Will have to double check the post). Is there plans to have speakers in the future?

today you told me there is some very serious minded individuals in the movement and I'm interested to hear their views. Without insulting you, trying to make a smart arsed comment or a dig I'm simply asking is http://irishantiwar.org/ part of the active movement or is there a better example?

What are you on about, might I ask?