Isis burn pilot alive..

Karl Stein

"Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger."


Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials

DarkyHughes

Tugboats wrote: »

Does anyone here want the Jordanian regime charged with war crimes?

I'd like to see any country who committed war crimes charged with crimes. But you'd have to charge the US, UK, Ireland & Israel with war crimes as well. You just can't pick & choose.

DarkyHughes

Karl Stein wrote: »

"Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger."


Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials

Sounds like Fox News have been following Herman's teachings.

Tugboats

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

The ISIS are claiming that the 26 year old American women that they were holding hostage has been killed by the Jordanian airstrikes.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/07/world/middleeast/isis-claims-american-hostage-killed-by-jordanian-retaliation-bombings.html?_r=1

Not that you can believe anything the ISIS say. It's likely that they murdered her long ago.

If she was killed by an airstrike shes lucky I would choose that option rather than getting my head chopped off on youtube

Wurzelbert

ireland.man wrote: »

This sort of statement is down to an irresponsible media preying on the minds of naive, uncritical individuals.

naive are all those who believe in a peaceful or a conventional military solution short of unconditional western surrender and handing over the world to is...though i am aware nuking rakka would not just end it all, it would be a powerful statement nevertheless....and overwhelming force is the only language radical islamists might understand, if any...conventional military action alone does not cut it, that much should be clear to all by now...also i don't think there are that many truly innocent people left in rakka...the women of is are as guilty as the rest and the kids are in a tragic way just tomorrow's jihadists, caught up in a mess that could and probably will drag on for generations to come...
but as i said, i am fully aware nuking anyone is out of the question for different reasons, so the west will continue to waste billions and send our guys to bleed out their lives in the sands of the middle east, just beacuse we dare not use the overwhelming power we have...

Nodin

Tugboats wrote: »

If she was killed by an airstrike shes lucky I would choose that option rather than getting my head chopped off on youtube

Am I going to be enlightened?
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=94177720&postcount=691

ireland.man

Wurzelbert wrote: »

naive are all those who believe in a peaceful or a conventional military solution short of unconditional western surrender and handing over the world to is...though i am aware nuking rakka would not just end it all, it would be a powerful statement nevertheless....and overwhelming force is the only language radical islamists might understand, if any...conventional military action alone does not cut it, that much should be clear to all by now...also i don't think there are that many truly innocent people left in rakka...the women of is are as guilty as the rest and the kids are in a tragic way just tomorrow's jihadists, caught up in a mess that could and probably will drag on for generations to come...
but as i said, i am fully aware nuking anyone is out of the question for different reasons, so the west will continue to waste billions and send our guys to bleed out their lives in the sands of the middle east, just beacuse we dare not use the overwhelming power we have...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NsZMbs5PC64

DarkyHughes

Wurzelbert wrote: »

naive are all those who believe in a peaceful or a conventional military solution short of unconditional western surrender and handing over the world to is...though i am aware nuking rakka would not just end it all, it would be a powerful statement nevertheless....and overwhelming force is the only language radical islamists might understand, if any...conventional military action alone does not cut it, that much should be clear to all by now...also i don't think there are that many truly innocent people left in rakka...the women of is are as guilty as the rest and the kids are in a tragic way just tomorrow's jihadists, caught up in a mess that could and probably will drag on for generations to come...
but as i said, i am fully aware nuking anyone is out of the question for different reasons, so the west will continue to waste billions and send our guys to bleed out their lives in the sands of the middle east, just beacuse we dare not use the overwhelming power we have...

I don't even know how to start trying to reason with someone who has such a barbaric mindset like this.

Tugboats

Nodin wrote: »

What are you on about, might I ask?

Hi,

1: In 2003 thousands of people took to the streets many in fancy dress to protest about bombing Iraq and Afghanistan and were distraught over the death and destruction it caused.

2: Now Syria and Iraq is being bombed, recently more aggressively by Jordan and it doesn't seem to have captured the imagination of the Irish Public and I questioned the Irish anti war protesters and why this is? Air strikes will cause damage right?

3: One of the best posters in the thread his name is Ireland.Man corrected me and informed me that an excellent very active anti-war movement in Ireland exists who are doing great work. Speakers have been organised, and along with fundraising and support for the Kurds. Probably many other things to.

4: I was interested in finding out more about them. All i can really find on google is http://irishantiwar.org/. I asked Ireland.Man is this the group of serious minded people who are doing this work or is it a different individual/group. As of yet he wont tell me

Nodin

Tugboats wrote: »

Hi,

1: In 2003 thousands of people took to the streets many in fancy dress to protest about bombing Iraq and Afghanistan and were distraught over the death and destruction it caused.

It was Iraq specifically they were protesting about.

Tugboats wrote: »

2: Now Syria and Iraq is being bombed, recently more aggressively by Jordan and it doesn't seem to have captured the imagination of the Irish Public and I questioned the Irish anti war protesters and why this is? Air strikes will cause damage right?

Because one was an unnessecary war based on lies and this one is to stop a shower of scumbags on a rampage.

Tugboats wrote: »

3: One of the best posters in the thread his name is Ireland.Man corrected me and informed me that an excellent very active anti-war movement in Ireland exists who are doing great work. Speakers have been organised, and along with fundraising and support for the Kurds. Probably many other things to.

They probably have.

Tugboats wrote: »

4: I was interested in finding out more about them. All i can really find on google is http://irishantiwar.org/. I asked Ireland.Man is this the group of serious minded people who are doing this work or is it a different individual/group. As of yet he wont tell me

Unless he is a member, how the fuck would he know? And what has this to do with IS?

Tugboats

Nodin wrote: »

It was Iraq specifically they were protesting about.


Because one was an unnessecary war based on lies and this one is to stop a shower of scumbags on a rampage.


They probably have.


Unless he is a member, how the fuck would he know? And what has this to do with IS?

he was the one who informed me about this active group but he wont name them so i think he knows who they are

Nodin

Tugboats wrote: »

he was the one who informed with about this active group but he wont name them so i think he knows who they are

O wonderful.

What has this to do with IS? What has it do with them killing the pilot?

Tugboats

Nodin wrote: »

O wonderful.

What has this to do with IS? What has it do with them killing the pilot?

the debate has evolved into how Isis should be dealt and the issue of war has been debated for a good amount of time in this thread.

Timberrrrrrrr

Nodin wrote: »

O wonderful.

What has this to do with IS? What has it do with them killing the pilot?

I wouldn't even entertain it anymore

ireland.man

Tugboats wrote: »

he was the one who informed me about this active group but he wont name them so i think he knows who they are

It's all relative, the anti-war movement has held public meetings about ISIS, I saw posters up around Dublin last September on the issue. I know anti-war groups are publishing articles around the issue and there's debates among socialist groups as to what approach to take on this matter. I'm not a member of those groups so I wouldn't know the ins and outs of their activity except that I know they are active.

Secondly, no matter how active I say they are with meetings and publications, you'll still obviously say "but in 2003 there were more protesters"!

Tugboats

ireland.man wrote: »

It's all relative, the anti-war movement has held public meetings about ISIS, I saw posters up around Dublin last September on the issue. I know anti-war groups are publishing articles around the issue and there's debates among socialist groups as to what approach to take on this matter. I'm not a member of those groups so I wouldn't know the ins and outs of their activity except that I know they are active.

Secondly, no matter how active I say they are with meetings and publications, you'll still obviously say "but in 2003 there were more protesters"!

no I wont because i told you 3 times that you corrected me

Nodin

Tugboats wrote: »

the debate has evolved into how Isis should be dealt and the issue of war has been debated for a good amount of time in this thread.

That answer is about as clear as mud. IS are being dealt with primarily militarily. What has the anti-war movement to do with anything?

ireland.man

Tugboats wrote: »

no I wont because i told you 3 times that you corrected me

Fair enough. Let us know if you receive any replies to your emails.

jobbridge4life

ireland.man wrote: »

IBut simply put, I'd say I'm more than happy to see the Peshmerga supported by Western airstrikes and for them to eventually set up a functioning state for the Kurds.

Ah so we have established the first elements of an accord between our two positions. I personally would support any regional response to what even at this late stage appears to be primarily a regional crisis. I believe that the Kurds deserve our utmost support, economically, diplomatically, and militarily. I do not believe however that regional action even with the support of an international coalition 'from afar' can effectively end this current nightmare and I also have sympathy for the view that such an approach would be an abdication of our moral debt to the region. In light of this I personally would support the use of UN troops in the region, either under the command of Kurdish authority or certainly operating in support and in tandem of same.

ireland.man wrote: »

I'd like to see a massive endeavour by all concerned to deal with the refugee problems in Turkey and Lebanon and for force to be used if necessary to protect the routes taken by displaced persons and to close the borders to foreign jihadists entering the battlefields.

Agreed 100%

ireland.man wrote: »

I hope to see ISIS implode eventually due to its inability to govern the areas it controls. I think this would be the ideal scenario and would be dependent on the Sunni tribes rising up against them but this would be very unlikely is the West is involved in large scale bombing runs. The Taliban receive huge propaganda boosts by NATO airstrikes and any accidental support for the cause of ISIS would be a disaster if we hoping they are overthrown.

Certainly the scenario you describe at the beginning of the preceding paragraph is the ideal and I believe that it is not as 'pie in the sky' as some might suggest, recent reports seem to indicate internal ructions

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/02/06/isis-barbarians-face-their-own-internal-reign-of-terror.html

Levels of support for terrorist organisations owing to extraneous bombing however is well repeated trope but with little real evidence.

ireland.man wrote: »

If I thought bombing Raqqa would save more lives than it took, then I'd be for that so I'm definitely not a pacifist.

I think every pacifist would agree with the immediately above. The point is that many pacifists and those who don't self-identify as such fail to acknowledge the utility of military power, however distasteful.

ireland.man wrote: »

So how do you feel about posters like tugboats stating they doesn't care about civilian causalities as long as ISIS is eliminated?

I feel little for them. To my mind the preservation of life and liberty, for all humankind, is absolutely paramount. Anyone who chooses conflict over a more profitable (in a non-exclusively monetary sense) is hateful IMHO.

end of the road

DarkyHughes wrote: »

I don't even know how to start trying to reason with someone who has such a barbaric mindset like this.

you can't. he clearly is a nut

Wurzelbert

ireland.man wrote: »

It's all relative, the anti-war movement has held public meetings about ISIS, I saw posters up around Dublin last September on the issue. I know anti-war groups are publishing articles around the issue and there's debates among socialist groups as to what approach to take on this matter. I'm not a member of those groups so I wouldn't know the ins and outs of their activity except that I know they are[...]

i just seriously wonder how peace marches down o'connell street or public meetings will ever achieve anything apart from making a few folks feel better about themselves and as if they were in the know and somehow part of the solution...

Tugboats

ireland.man wrote: »

Fair enough. Let us know if you receive any replies to your emails.

will do.

Here is one of the emails i sent

Hi,

I'm just wondering what your thoughts are about what is currently taking place in Syria and Iraq?. Your last article on your website was in Sept when James Foley was killed. I think lots has happened since then especially now with Jordan intensifying the airstrikes

As a Party strongly opposed to war are you concerned with Jordans reaction to their pilot being killed?. The leadership in Jordan have made aggressive comments that even George Bush and Dick Cheney would be proud of. They have even released a video glorifying military action. You can see that here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RroCrMmWOAs.

Does any of this concern the Party and its members or do you currently support airstrikes in Iraq and Syria? I'm sure you agree even the best planned airstrikes will cause civilian causalities? Have you considered highlighting this issue?. Have you thought about maybe protesting at the Jordan consulate in Dublin. This may bring the issue to the attention of the wider public.

Speaking of the wider public do you think this issue could bring them to the streets again like in 2003? Up to now there is a lot of silence surrounding the issue. why do you think that is?

Thank you for reading, I know ye are busy with water charges and property tax issues,

Looking forward to hearing from you.

ireland.man

Tugboats wrote: »

will do.

Here is one of the emails i sent

Hi,

I'm just wondering what your thoughts are about what is currently taking place in Syria and Iraq?. Your last article on your website was in Sept when James Foley was killed. I think lots has happened since then especially now with Jordan intensifying the airstrikes

As a Party strongly opposed to war are you concerned with Jordans reaction to their pilot being killed?. The leadership in Jordan have made aggressive comments that even George Bush and Dick Cheney would be proud of. They have even released a video glorifying military action. You can see that here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RroCrMmWOAs.

Does any of this concern the Party and its members or do you currently support airstrikes in Iraq and Syria? I'm sure you agree even the best planned airstrikes will cause civilian causalities? Have you considered highlighting this issue?. Have you thought about maybe protesting at the Jordan consulate in Dublin. This may bring the issue to the attention of the wider public.

Speaking of the wider public do you think this issue could bring them to the streets again like in 2003? Up to now there is a lot of silence surrounding the issue. why do you think that is?

Thank you for reading, I know ye are busy with water charges and property tax issues,

Looking forward to hearing from you.

Ah no! Such a great email until the last less than sly dig about water charges...!

Tugboats

ireland.man wrote: »

Ah no! Such a great email until the last less than sly dig about water charges...!

not a dig

ireland.man

jobbridge4life wrote: »

Ah so we have established the first elements of an accord between our two positions. I personally would support any regional response to what even at this late stage appears to be primarily a regional crisis. I believe that the Kurds deserve our utmost support, economically, diplomatically, and militarily. I do not believe however that regional action even with the support of an international coalition 'from afar' can effectively end this current nightmare and I also have sympathy for the view that such an approach would be an abdication of our moral debt to the region. In light of this I personally would support the use of UN troops in the region, either under the command of Kurdish authority or certainly operating in support and in tandem of same.



Agreed 100%



Certainly the scenario you describe at the beginning of the preceding paragraph is the ideal and I believe that it is not as 'pie in the sky' as some might suggest, recent reports seem to indicate internal ructions

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/02/06/isis-barbarians-face-their-own-internal-reign-of-terror.html

Levels of support for terrorist organisations owing to extraneous bombing however is well repeated trope but with little real evidence.



I think every pacifist would agree with the immediately above. The point is that many pacifists and those who don't self-identify as such fail to acknowledge the utility of military power, however distasteful.




I feel little for them. To my mind the preservation of life and liberty, for all humankind, is absolutely paramount. Anyone who chooses conflict over a more profitable (in a non-exclusively monetary sense) is hateful IMHO.

I think we're in agreement on all the major issues here and they're fairly mainstream opinions too. I'll give a longer reply in the morning but I just wanted to say this was an interesting post.

Tugboats

Wurzelbert wrote: »

i just seriously wonder how peace marches down o'connell street or public meetings will ever achieve anything.

It will make me a millionaire. I've just received a container of selfie sticks and King Abdullah mask made in China that I plan on selling. Come on Ireland take to the streets!

Shurimgreat

Tugboats wrote: »

will do.

Here is one of the emails i sent

Hi,

I'm just wondering what your thoughts are about what is currently taking place in Syria and Iraq?. Your last article on your website was in Sept when James Foley was killed. I think lots has happened since then especially now with Jordan intensifying the airstrikes

As a Party strongly opposed to war are you concerned with Jordans reaction to their pilot being killed?. The leadership in Jordan have made aggressive comments that even George Bush and Dick Cheney would be proud of. They have even released a video glorifying military action. You can see that here

Does any of this concern the Party and its members or do you currently support airstrikes in Iraq and Syria? I'm sure you agree even the best planned airstrikes will cause civilian causalities? Have you considered highlighting this issue?. Have you thought about maybe protesting at the Jordan consulate in Dublin. This may bring the issue to the attention of the wider public.

Speaking of the wider public do you think this issue could bring them to the streets again like in 2003? Up to now there is a lot of silence surrounding the issue. why do you think that is?

Thank you for reading, I know ye are busy with water charges and property tax issues,

Looking forward to hearing from you.

You are wasting your time.
Russia forcefully annexes Crimea, and tries to do the same to eastern Ukraine - nothing.
Jordan bombs the sh*t out of ISIS (deserved) - nada.
ISIS mass muderers its way around the middle east - relative silence.

The US bombs ISIS (again deserved) - outrage.

Its only when the US are involved that they generally react.

Let's be clear - most of these protest groups are remnants of hard left Trotskite factions who have reinvented themselves for the modern age. Water charges is just the latest thing they exploit for popular attention.

Their hatred for America stems back to the Cold War. Many of them still lament the fall of the USSR when their funding and support dried up.

Shurimgreat

Wurzelbert wrote: »

i just seriously wonder how peace marches down o'connell street or public meetings will ever achieve anything apart from making a few folks feel better about themselves and as if they were in the know and somehow part of the solution...

I'm sure ISIS would be quaking in their boots if they heard of such a march. More likely they would think there is nothing to be worried about from these flower power advocates and continue their rampaging.

It's fairly clear ISIS only understand one thing - reaper drones and cruise missiles. That's the only language they understand, as did similar groups before them.

Nodin

Tugboats wrote: »

will do.

Here is one of the emails i sent

Hi,

I'm just wondering what your thoughts are about what is currently taking place in Syria and Iraq?. Your last article on your website was in Sept when James Foley was killed. I think lots has happened since then especially now with Jordan intensifying the airstrikes

As a Party strongly opposed to war are you concerned with Jordans reaction to their pilot being killed?. The leadership in Jordan have made aggressive comments that even George Bush and Dick Cheney would be proud of. They have even released a video glorifying military action. You can see that here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RroCrMmWOAs. .

You can't see the difference between Bush and Cheneys unjustified aggression and a country reacting to one its people being burnt alive?

Tugboats

Nodin wrote: »

You can't see the difference between Bush and Cheneys unjustified aggression and a country reacting to one its people being burnt alive?

People who are anti war would be concerned by the language used by Jordan and the video they released . LEADERS SHOULD act without using cowboy language. Thanks