Isis burn pilot alive..

Snake Plisken

porsche959 wrote: »

^ So plant nukes in Europe to deal with returning jihadis? Christ even by neo-con standards we've got a live one here. :pac:

Not what I said! So just in plain English for you nuke their strongholds and round up any returning ISIS jihadis and put them to death.

conorhal

Wibbs wrote: »

Me, I'd go full on Roman on them. Send in the heavy hitters and make a thousand widows in a week and line the approach roads to their "caliphate" with the crucified remains of their "brave warriors". Fight their kind of evil with a bigger abomination. Show them what and who is at stake. No pussyfooting going on. No political "solution". Fight fire with napalm. And yep history has shown that can work(with an attendant hearts and minds mission).

Chicago rules. Give them the full Connery.

"You wanna get Capone? Here's how you get him. He pulls a knife, you pull a gun. He sends one of yours to the hospital, you send one of his to the morgue! That's the Chicago way, and that's how you get Capone!"

GerB40

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

1. No, it does not classify as genocide. There are very specific definitions for genocide, just look at the Croatia vs Serbia case decided at the International Court of Justice yesterday.
2. If Israel wanted every palestinian dead, they would be dead.
3. Israel does not want every palestinian dead, that's a ridiculous notion.

In any case, that's going off-topic, this thread is about ISIS and their barbarism.

As for what to do, that's a tough question, look at the other players in the area:

The peshmerga are reasonably effective but they're a fairly small force and don't particularly want to fight outside kurdish areas.
The Shia Iraqis don't particularly want to fight outside the shia areas of iraq.
The Sunni Iraqis either sympathise with ISIS or hate the Shia more than Isis or are waiting to see who the winning side will be.
The Syrian Government are a pretty nasty lot too. Ditto for Hezbollah.
The FSA are a busted flush.
The Turks don't want to do anything that would help the Kurds.
The Jordanian army probably wouldn't be strong enough.
The Iranians could probably exterminate ISIS but nobody wants to see them get their claws further into Iraq.
The Saudis and Qataris aren't particularly idealogically opposed to ISIS but they need to appear pro-western to look like they're on the right side.
The Russians and Chinese are quite happy to sell arms to any side and don't have any particular moral objections to anyone being slaughtered.
The US and Europe don't want to get boots on the ground because as soon as they do the whole arab world will go into hate-mode against them.

Have I left anyone out?

Okay, good points well made. I suppose genocide isn't the right word, systematic abuse or displacement, I don't know.. And yeah, it's not the topic being discussed so back on track.

The points you made in your post make me think it impossible to fight these extremist animals. And that's because there isn't one common enemy. If your enemy has a name, a face, a nationality, anything that distinguishes them from others then people know who to go after. But all these different fundamentalists Islamic groups, plus all the groups you mentioned make a messy hodge podge of good guy vs bad guy..

The middle east really has suffered for long enough but where does it end?? One for the philosophers...

conorhal

cerastes wrote: »

Reading the last page of posts, this seems to have gone off on a tangent
While its really barbaric what has happened to this pilot, I'm stunned that people are surprised or shocked? What did they think the pilot was also doing? Dropping bombs on these guys, they were hardly going to throw him a party after he ejected.
In all likelihood bombing people seems to get their blood up, and its as likely he sent innocent victims to their graves horribly too. Whatever of that ,it was always going to be a bad end for this guy, and as horrific as his death seems like it may have been (I didn't look for it in any link or online) its hardly a suprise this would happen, its a propaganda coup for his captors and sends a deadly message to his comrades or others flying similar missions. I'd be more surprised if it didn't curtail missions from the countries that are sending their air forces to carry out attacks on isis, if that is the case then Isis will have aided their own military circumstances by being as brutal as possible, not that I agree with it, just that it seems the obvious is being overlooked.

It takes a special kind of stupid to draw a moral equivilence between sombody fighting IS and the soldiers of IS.
Sure dem Royal Airforce chaps, where't dey just as bad as the Waffen SS demselves?

Eh, No.

ireland.man

conorhal wrote: »

It takes a special kind of stupid to draw a moral equivilence between sombody fighting IS and the soldiers of IS.
Sure dem Royal Airforce chaps, where't dey just as bad as the Waffen SS demselves?

Eh, No.

Again, some only care about certain civilian deaths. No-one talks of the bombing of Dresden and how thousands of children burnt to death trying to escape the "Royal Airforce chaps".

If it's our side doing it, or what we think is for moral reasons, then all bets are off... nuclear weapons can be used, children can be burnt to death, people's ears can be chopped off as rewards in the jungles of Vietnam, prisoners can be raped and tortured. But if our enemy does similar things, then that's a fundamental shift in the world!

Baggy Trousers

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

It will help long term in dealing with ISIS as they realise their barbarity has consequences.

i think those sick bastards know exactly how barbaric their actions are.

However I do not think executing prisoners in direct response is helpful. It only fuels their cause.

I have even een suggestions that Jordan should have burned the prisoners alive too.

GerB40

ireland.man wrote: »

Again, some only care about certain civilian deaths. No-one talks of the bombing of Dresden and how thousands of children burnt to death trying to escape the "Royal Airforce chaps".

If it's our side doing it, or what we think is for moral reasons, then all bets are off... nuclear weapons can be used, children can be burnt to death, people's ears can be chopped off as rewards in the jungles of Vietnam, prisoners can be raped and tortured. But if our enemy does similar things, then that's a fundamental shift in the world!

Exactly. I think it was summed up perfectly by that infamous picture of a woman protesting the Vietnam war with a sign that said "Fighting for peace is like fúcking for virginity". The sheer amount of contradiction and hypocrisy in wars is astonishing but it seems to be a necessary evil in this messed up world..

conorhal

GerB40 wrote: »

Exactly. I think it was summed up perfectly by that infamous picture of a woman protesting the Vietnam war with a sign that said "Fighting for peace is like fúcking for virginity". The sheer amount of contradiction and hypocrisy in wars is astonishing but it seems to be a necessary evil in this messed up world..

"Fighting for peace is like fúcking for virginity" A statement as glib, stupid and quite obvously wrong as Neville Chamberlain's arriving back in the UK waving an agreement signed by Adolf Hitler and declaring 'peace in our time'.
Sometimes you do have to fight for peace or live under tyranny, and those that live under tyranny will never know a moments peace.

Tugboats

Am i right in saying they only have two high profile hostages left? The British guy who they get to speak in videos and the American woman. I wonder how she is being treated?

chrysagon

Coalition pussy footing about..and ISIL seems to be slowly gathering strength, its not until they hit home in Europe that we really sit up and notice!

Fratton Fred

ireland.man wrote: »

Again, some only care about certain civilian deaths. No-one talks of the bombing of Dresden and how thousands of children burnt to death trying to escape the "Royal Airforce chaps".

If it's our side doing it, or what we think is for moral reasons, then all bets are off... nuclear weapons can be used, children can be burnt to death, people's ears can be chopped off as rewards in the jungles of Vietnam, prisoners can be raped and tortured. But if our enemy does similar things, then that's a fundamental shift in the world!

rather than being all high and mighty about this, how about offering some sort of opinion on how ISIS should be dealt with.

ISIS are genocidal thugs who think nothing of murdering and raping innocent men, women and children because they don't fit in with their perverted view of Islam.

karma_

Wibbs wrote: »

Me, I'd go full on Roman on them. Send in the heavy hitters and make a thousand widows in a week and line the approach roads to their "caliphate" with the crucified remains of their "brave warriors". Fight their kind of evil with a bigger abomination. Show them what and who is at stake. No pussyfooting going on. No political "solution". Fight fire with napalm. And yep history has shown that can work(with an attendant hearts and minds mission).

I disagree with you Wibbs. This approach has been tried before, it was called the Crusades and it ended up as another miserable failure.

karma_

Fratton Fred wrote: »

rather than being all high and mighty about this, how about offering some sort of opinion on how ISIS should be dealt with.

ISIS are genocidal thugs who think nothing of murdering and raping innocent men, women and children because they don't fit in with their perverted view of Islam.

Well Fred, when one approach has been tried over and over, and each time the situation gets worse the best course of action is to change your course of action.

Hoop66

conorhal wrote: »

Chicago rules. Give them the full Connery.

"You wanna get Capone? Here's how you get him. He pulls a knife, you pull a gun. He sends one of yours to the hospital, you send one of his to the morgue! That's the Chicago way, and that's how you get Capone!"

Yeah, tell me again how that worked out for him?

Those who espouse the view of "bomb them all", where are you planning on dropping these bombs? On the building with the "secret ISIS HQ" sign?

Those who espouse sending in the troops to "kill them all", how do you plan on distinguishing between an ISIS fighter and a civillian forced to remain in the caliphate area? Or should they just be killed anyway?

Tugboats

chrysagon wrote: »

Coalition pussy footing about..and ISIL seems to be slowly gathering strength, its not until they hit home in Europe that we really sit up and notice!

Not really, the incident in Paris was quickly forgotten about and nothing has been done. Yesterday the Uk jailed a guy for 3 years for having links to Isis and plotting terrorism acts. Its expected he will serve 13months:o

Fratton Fred

karma_ wrote: »

Well Fred, when one approach has been tried over and over, and each time the situation gets worse the best course of action is to change your course of action.

So do nothing and watch them ethnically cleanse Iraq and Syria?

That doesn't sound like a viable option.

LuckyLloyd

There's two sides to this debate that have merit imo:

- the 'kill them with righteous fire' side'
- the 'don't send in troops, that's what they want in the first place' side;

As far as that goes, I think I probably lean towards the latter and think that western states should consider media bans if anything. Let's leave these dickheads to it, they thrive on drawing attention and spreading fear and panic.

The sides to this that has no merit are the 'this is a figment of the west's imagination' nonsense or the 'it's actually America's fault that they are beheading and burning people to death in a Middle Eastern desert'. Those people can shove it imo.

BoJack Horseman

karma_ wrote: »

Well Fred, when one approach has been tried over and over, and each time the situation gets worse the best course of action is to change your course of action.

To what?

karma_

Fratton Fred wrote: »

So do nothing and watch them ethnically cleanse Iraq and Syria?

That doesn't sound like a viable option.

That's absolutely not what I'm saying. No other group (besides you know who) in recent history that I can recall comes close to the barbarity that IS seem all too willing to participate in and if I thought they could be defeated militarily then I would agree but IS are not a nation state, they are an insurgency and history teaches us that they cannot be defeated by those kinds of means.

I'm saying we need to reevaluate at a fundamental level the best solution to this problem.

Tugboats

Fratton Fred wrote: »

So do nothing and watch them ethnically cleanse Iraq and Syria?

That doesn't sound like a viable option.

That would be fine if you could secure them in and make sure they don't come and go back to Europe. It would also help if reporters and aid workers stayed away. Nobody really cares what they do to the people of Iraq or Syria

Iwasfrozen

Baggy Trousers wrote: »

i think those sick bastards know exactly how barbaric their actions are.

However I do not think executing prisoners in direct response is helpful. It only fuels their cause.

I have even een suggestions that Jordan should have burned the prisoners alive too.

Killing people they wanted released doesn't fuel their cause. Giving into their demands would.

ireland.man

Tugboats wrote: »

Am i right in saying they only have two high profile hostages left? The British guy who they get to speak in videos and the American woman. I wonder how she is being treated?

And the death toll in the Vietnam War was 52,000 American troops (plus millions of non-Americans).

And the first woman in space was Sally Ride (apart from the Russian woman who was before her).

And the number of hostages ISIS has is now two (apart from the thousands of captured Iraqi and Syrian soldiers and others being slaughtered daily by ISIS).

This is what I mean when I say people need to have a more comprehensive view of world affairs.

conorhal

ireland.man wrote: »

And the death toll in the Vietnam War was 52,000 American troops (plus millions of non-Americans).

And the first woman in space was Sally Ride (apart from the Russian woman who was before her).

And the number of hostages ISIS has is now two (apart from the thousands of captured Iraqi and Syrian soldiers and others being slaughtered daily by ISIS).

This is what I mean when I say people need to have a more comprehensive view of world affairs.

Pray tell, share with us your solution to the growing problem of IS then.

Iwasfrozen

ireland.man wrote: »

And the death toll in the Vietnam War was 52,000 American troops (plus millions of non-Americans).

And the first woman in space was Sally Ride (apart from the Russian woman who was before her).

And the number of hostages ISIS has is now two (apart from the thousands of captured Iraqi and Syrian soldiers and others being slaughtered daily by ISIS).

This is what I mean when I say people need to have a more comprehensive view of world affairs.

How about you stop trying to excuse people being burned alive?

chrysagon

Joe stalin reckon loss of one life was a tragedy, a million lives a statistic.. says it all really.

AlanS181824

I watched that video, totally distressing stuff, the poor man is seen trying his best to battle it before falling to his knees and dying.

Barbaric isn't the word.

ireland.man

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

How about you stop trying to excuse people being burned alive?

Moronic post. You're supporting the burning to death of children by only talking about select cases.

arayess

c_man wrote: »

Horrific.

And from that link

Yeah, that's not gonna solve anything.

Not really , you are looking at this wrong.

The pilot is from a powerful tribe that support the king in jordan. The tribe were demanding everything possible to be done to get the pilot released.
In dealing with IS this may not have helped but internally in jordan it will have helped the king keep his allies sweet.
As they say in ireland - all politics is local.

ireland.man

conorhal wrote: »

Pray tell, share with us your solution to the growing problem of IS then.

I've absolutely no idea. I'm not pretending to know what the solution is but I know what isn't likely to work and that's the same approaches used in Iraq and Afghanistan and other theatres in the war against terror.

Droning Afghan wedding parties, making children literally afraid of sunny skies because they know that's when bombs are dropped on their villages... that's how you create the climate that creates terrorism.

I would hope by creating a large, strong Kurdish state or giving a massive amount of support the the Peshmerga, while cutting off financing avenues to ISIS (Gulf States have blood on their hands) and by reigning in Turkey and closing the borders to slow down foreign fighters entering the region, you might hope ISIS will implode without a need for foreign occupation again and again.

Iwasfrozen

ireland.man wrote: »

Moronic post. You're supporting the burning to death of children by only talking about select cases.

Moronic post, you're comparing the morality of accidental civilian deaths during war to public execution of a man by burning him alive.