30Kmh speed limit in housing estates

zagmund

Like beauf, I have noticed that drivers in the city centre (or at least the D4/D2 bit that I cycle through) are *generally* slower and more cautious than the ones I encounter out in the suburbs.

I grew up in a cul-de-sac in one of the many 1960s housing estates in DLR. When I were a lad you could play on the road and nothing more than someone shouting "CAR" was required to keep everyone safe and off the road. These days I see cars driving so fast on the same road (a cul-de-sac, where there's no rush to get to the end of the road) that it's just not safe for kids to be playing on the road.

As an old fogey, I wonder what it is about people these days that makes them feel the need to drive at 30, 40, 50km/h up a dead end road.

z

beauf

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Driving onto the other side of the road over a speedbump is certainly silly behaviour. That is not something I would do. There are bumps with very sharp edges that will warp your alloys if you drive over them anywhere near the speed limit, so you have to slow down to a crawl, hence the speeding up bit. I don't understand the logic of them, they are along the lines of "Take that you evil motorist!". If people want them, fine, but if they then come back whining and saying "people slow down and speed up going over speedbumps, I don't like that!", well congratulations, you wanted it, you paid for it (via you taxes) and now you have it. Enjoy!

There's one outside Garda HQ you need oxygen for.

. It's just cheap and dirty flawed solution. But its driver behaviour that creates a desire for them. In the UK they used to have loads of them but seem to have speed cameras a lot more now.

Surprised cameras aren't more widespread here.

Tragedy

beauf wrote: »

Driving over ramps too fast will certain damage your car. Especially if its a daily route. Too fast might be very slowly depending on the ramp. But you have to consider that it's not the occasional speeder that caused them to be installed. It's a lot of speeding constantly over a long period of time.

Can you show examples of where speed bumps were installed in response to prolonged, persistent and common speeding? Because I can show many examples in SDCC where speedbumps were quite literally plonked on a road because a beancounter decided they should be there, with zero investigation or even anecdotal reasons to install them.

Your entire 'argument' is predicated on an assumption that is largely untrue.

dr.fuzzenstein

beauf wrote: »

There's one outside Garda HQ you need oxygen for.

. It's just cheap and dirty flawed solution. But its driver behaviour that creates a desire for them. In the UK they used to have loads of them but seem to have speed cameras a lot more now.

Surprised cameras aren't more widespread here.

We would do anything in order to avoid actual driver training and enforcement. Whatever solutions get implemented always seem to be whatever is popular with the table-banging brigade.

beauf

Tragedy wrote: »

Can you show examples of where speed bumps were installed in response to prolonged, persistent and common speeding? Because I can show many examples in SDCC where speedbumps were quite literally plonked on a road because a beancounter decided they should be there, with zero investigation or even anecdotal reasons to install them.

Your entire 'argument' is predicated on an assumption that is largely untrue.

Over the years I've seen a number of local campaigns for measures to curb speeding and ramps are often the result. I'm surprised you've never heard of any before.

For example

2004
http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/residents-want-action-as-speeding-traffic-ploughs-up-strawberry-beds-26218379.html

http://www.askaboutmoney.com/threads/speed-limit-on-the-strawberry-beds.55953/

Finally got them 4 years later in 2008.
http://www.biker.ie/forum/showthread.php?t=33469

They had been complaining about speeding on that road for probably about 10yrs or more.

Another more recent one was Diswellstown road. That took a few years too. There been loads over the years. Perhaps people don't notice these campaigns unless they are right beside them, or on their route.

That not to say they get installed sometimes without any reason by local authorities. But its those same authorities who would have to implement the ideas that avoid the need for speed ramps.

Tragedy

beauf wrote: »

Over the years I've seen a number of local campaigns for measures to curb speeding and ramps are often the result. I'm surprised you've never heard of any before.

For example

2004
http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/residents-want-action-as-speeding-traffic-ploughs-up-strawberry-beds-26218379.html

http://www.askaboutmoney.com/threads/speed-limit-on-the-strawberry-beds.55953/

Finally got them 4 years later in 2008.
http://www.biker.ie/forum/showthread.php?t=33469

They had been complaining about speeding on that road for probably about 10yrs or more.

Another more recent one was Diswellstown road. That took a few years too. There been loads over the years. Perhaps people don't notice these campaigns unless they are right beside them, or on their route.

That not to say they get installed sometimes without any reason by local authorities. But its those same authorities who would have to implement the ideas that avoid the need for speed ramps.

Could you please read my post before replying?

Local campaigns to have speed ramps installed are not based on even anecdotal evidence. Tests show that the average person finds it almost impossible to accurately judge speed without training (the most common method being to know the rough distance between two objects on/by the road and to time how long it takes a vehicle to move between both). Perceived speed is overly influenced by factors unrelated to speed e.g. exhaust noise or tyre roar.

In essence, you replied to a post explaining how your argument based on assumption is untrue, with another argument based on a different assumption which also isn't true.

That is to say, people like you are why many roads that never had any need of speed ramps are instead littered with them because instead of doing the intelligent thing of actually analyzing traffic speeds to determine the necessity for speed ramps, councils put them down just because enough dim people said so.

beauf

Tragedy wrote: »

... even anecdotal reasons to install them....

I took your inference to be were there was no local request for them. You're now asking for locations where the authority did studies to measure the speeding. Which is very different. You should be explicit if thats what you want in reply.

In my experience the council do run studies which is why they often refuse to install then.

http://www.independent.ie/regionals/fingalindependent/news/speed-reader-plan-for-oldtown-school-30769147.html

http://www.biker.ie/forum/showpost.php?p=493803&postcount=14

http://www.roseparkresidentsassociation.com/?p=932

http://www.roseparkresidentsassociation.com/?p=932

18/09/2012 – Report provided by F.C.C

We received the report from F.C.C (see attached document “Rosepark Park Balrothery Speed Survey) and were surprised to find that the average speed of 85% of the traffic was at an average speed of 53kph, in excess of the area speed limit; as was the previous speed survey which showed 85% of the traffic to be at 60kph but this was deemed acceptable by F.C.C.

So that shows they do studies/surveys over time to compare results, don't always install ramps at the request of locals.`

Amirani

I don't drive myself, I cycle, and I hate speed bumps. There's essentially no speed you can go over them at that isn't fecking painful.

ezra_pound

padser wrote: »

Novel solution.

We keep our cars on the roads and allow them to drive at a reasonable speed facilitating people getting from A to B.

We keep our children off the roads and allow them a much safer environment than roads regardless of what the speed limit is.

Why do I get the feeling you don't have any kids?

Tragedy

beauf wrote: »

I took your inference to be were there was no local request for them. You're now asking for locations where the authority did studies to measure the speeding. Which is very different. You should be explicit if thats what you want in reply.

I wouldn't need to be absurdly explicit if you could correctly read posts, which you show a repeated inability to do.

In my experience the council do run studies which is why they often refuse to install then.

Perhaps you could share this experience?

http://www.independent.ie/regionals/fingalindependent/news/speed-reader-plan-for-oldtown-school-30769147.html

F.C.C who informed us a Speed Survey was underway after original requests from us through Senator Darragh O’Brien.

So the council only did a speed survey after pressure from a Senator, a politician who should not ever be making requests to a County Council.

http://www.biker.ie/forum/showpost.php?p=493803&postcount=14

So your experience is one post on a forum where someone says repeated traffic surveys were done before speed ramps were installed? That doesn't even make sense.

http://www.roseparkresidentsassociation.com/?p=932

See above.

http://www.roseparkresidentsassociation.com/?p=932

See above.

So that shows they do studies/surveys over time to compare results, don't always install ramps at the request of locals.`

No it doesn't, and no it doesn't.

Please try harder, and please, PLEASE read my post before replying this time.

beauf

Speeding is rife in Dublin Ireland. Anyone who drives will know that a lot of the traffic they are in isn't obeying the speed limits. http://www.completecar.ie/news/article/816/Less-than-one-in-ten-cars-obey-30kmh-Dublin-City-limit

I'm not defending speed ramps. I hate them. I'm not even arguing the limits are always appropriate. Or that speeding is automatically dangerous.

But they looking to impose a 30k limit in estates. Once they do that, if they do a study it will put a lot more people over the limit than if they do a study now. Perhaps that's they they want to lower the baseline. it will give them the data to impose traffic calming measures.

Tragedy

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=77262426

beauf

Perhaps it would be more productive to send DLRCoCo some information on studies where speed ramps had no effect on speeding, or reducing accidents and where their removal improved adherence to posted limits and reducing accidents. Certainly lots of places have removed speed ramps. You're falling over such articles on the web. If anyone could be bothered to look them up. Some residences association organise their own traffic/speed studies, to lobby for speed ramps. It most be possible to do the opposite, to lobby for their removal.

Aard

I think the point is tgat we actually have a Design Manual for Urban Roads and Streets, which suggests many different ways of calming traffic. Most people don't know about the different ways because all that they're familiar with is speed bumps (aka vertical deflections). Lack of awareness or proliferation of the other ways does not mean that speed bumps are the best solution.

Mort5000

Aard wrote: »

I think the point is tgat we actually have a Design Manual for Urban Roads and Streets, which suggests many different ways of calming traffic. Most people don't know about the different ways because all that they're familiar with is speed bumps (aka vertical deflections). Lack of awareness or proliferation of the other ways does not mean that speed bumps are the best solution.

Close the thread if no one else knows anything and shouldn't be allowed to discuss.

beauf

Aard wrote: »

I think the point is tgat we actually have a Design Manual for Urban Roads and Streets.

There seems to a considerable gap between the manual and practise though. Which perhaps is why many have not seen the alternatives.

Aard

DMURS has only been out a short while and it's questionnable whether most local authorities currently or will implement it fully on new road/street projects.

dr.fuzzenstein

Aard wrote: »

DMURS has only been out a short while and it's questionnable whether most local authorities currently or will implement it fully on new road/street projects.

Well, corruption might have been taken out of the planning process to a certain extend, so what we're left with is just the usual incompetence and unwillingness to communicate with other departments. If that will improve matters remains to be seen.

patrickbrophy18

zagmund wrote: »

As an old fogey, I wonder what it is about people these days that makes them feel the need to drive at 30, 40, 50km/h up a dead end road.

I strongly suspect they are showing off as there is no benefit to going at such speeds for the sake of cutting a millisecond off their journey.

As for the topic at hand. I think it's a great idea. Housing estates are generally family oriented (or supposed to be anyway) where children at play is very common. Having said that, I do think that anything lower than 30 KM/H is over the top. And then there are roads such as Harbour Road in Dun Laoghaire where 30 KM/H is inappropriately low where it should be 50.

As for the DMURS, it has it's ups and downs. The overall goal of it seems to promote safer urban and suburban streets and I do agree with many of the measures therein. However, it shouldn't apply to all non-motorway roads. Also, some of the sentiments in it are a tad over-dramatic with phrasing like "sense of place/enclosure" which screams to me high maintenance.

Aard

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Well, corruption might have been taken out of the planning process to a certain extend, so what we're left with is just the usual incompetence and unwillingness to communicate with other departments. If that will improve matters remains to be seen.

I never insinuated that there was anything corrupt about any lack of implementation of DMURS. There is a lot of "behind the scenes" work going on to educate council workers on DMURS, but because it is a new-ish document there are still teething problems. One of the main problems is that regular Joes often prefer the way things were done "before" (in this case -- bumps instead of any other way) and see any devation from that as a waste of money. It's unfortunate that the general public don't know anything about DMURS.

dr.fuzzenstein

Aard wrote: »

I never insinuated that there was anything corrupt about any lack of implementation of DMURS. There is a lot of "behind the scenes" work going on to educate council workers on DMURS, but because it is a new-ish document there are still teething problems. One of the main problems is that regular Joes often prefer the way things were done "before" (in this case -- bumps instead of any other way) and see any devation from that as a waste of money. It's unfortunate that the general public don't know anything about DMURS.

Oh no, the insinuation was all mine.

Iwannahurl

Aard wrote: »

I think the point is tgat we actually have a Design Manual for Urban Roads and Streets, which suggests many different ways of calming traffic. Most people don't know about the different ways because all that they're familiar with is speed bumps (aka vertical deflections). Lack of awareness or proliferation of the other ways does not mean that speed bumps are the best solution.

There are indeed different ways to slow down traffic, eg horizontal as well as vertical deflections.

However, my experience of the DMURS so far, and of local road schemes generally, is that national and local authorities try to do it on the cheap.

The DoT recently announced a budget of €2 million to install traffic calming in 34 local authority areas.

By way of contrast, €930,000 was allocated just to Galway City Council for the provision of electronic signs directing motorists to city-centre car parks. Priorities, priorities...

RainyDay

Aard wrote: »

There is a lot of "behind the scenes" work going on to educate council workers on DMURS, but because it is a new-ish document there are still teething problems. One of the main problems is that regular Joes often prefer the way things were done "before" (in this case -- bumps instead of any other way) and see any devation from that as a waste of money. It's unfortunate that the general public don't know anything about DMURS.

'A lot of work' is stretching it a bit. They did a few sessions of a 1-day workshop in Dublin early last year, and took the workshop on the road for 3 or 4 regional sessions. So it was a 1-day training for a few people from each local authority.

zagmund wrote: »

As an old fogey, I wonder what it is about people these days that makes them feel the need to drive at 30, 40, 50km/h up a dead end road.

Probably the same thing that makes them accellerate at speed past the cyclist in traffic, often failing to leave the recommended 1.5m safe passing space, to get to the back of the next queue of cars up the road.

Tragedy wrote: »

Can you show examples of where speed bumps were installed in response to prolonged, persistent and common speeding? Because I can show many examples in SDCC where speedbumps were quite literally plonked on a road because a beancounter decided they should be there, with zero investigation or even anecdotal reasons to install them.

Your entire 'argument' is predicated on an assumption that is largely untrue.

Not so much beancounters in my experience as local busy-bodies. They became a 'badge of honour' for some residents association at one stage. Your residents association was nothing if you hadn't got a few speed ramps in.

Tabnabs

RainyDay wrote: »

Not so much beancounters in my experience as local busy-bodies. They became a 'badge of honour' for some residents association at one stage. Your residents association was nothing if you hadn't got a few speed ramps in.

Or in the case of one DCC surburb, they splashed out on two speed ramps for an entire housing estate with one located directly outside the front door of the serving Labour Councillor and a former Lord Mayor of Dublin.

https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.314327,-6.23079,3a,75y,194.5h,70.76t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sDnKupmKZSJgJYtg2_qzFGg!2e0?hl=en

Located at the end of the estate and with so much on street parking as to make it impossible to even reach 30kph...

Iwannahurl

While they're at it, maybe these politicians with pull should have the illegally parked cars cleared off the footpaths as well.

If these speed ramps are so awful (damaging cars, shattering spinal columns, dislodging dentures etc) why would politicians want them right outside their house?

zagmund

RainyDay wrote: »

Probably the same thing that makes them accellerate at speed past the cyclist in traffic, often failing to leave the recommended 1.5m safe passing space, to get to the back of the next queue of cars up the road.

Speaking of which, is it just me or do other cyclists notice that mini-roundabouts bring out the inner Formula 1 driver in people? I've lost count of the number of times I've nearly been cut off by people as they desperately try to overtake the one piece of traffic on Elgin Road in Ballsbridge as they approach the narrowest part - the roundabout. The road is about as empty as a city centre road can be in the morning rush hour, but try approaching the roundabout at the junction with Raglan Road and more often than not a car will try to squash you into the kerb. I really don't know what it is.

The same used to happen as you approach the roundabouts on Strand Road in Sandymount. Many times I've seen cars astride the roundabout after failing to notice there was a bike *legitimately* on the road in front of them.

z