LOI Talk, Rumors, Gossip, Transfers etc 2015

topmanamillion

wadacrack wrote: »

Sander Puri who is playing for Sligo Rovers, started for Estonia agains Switzerland tonight . Estonia lost 1-0 to a last minute goal

Apples and oranges stuff. I'm actually a rovers fan and I see sandr play week in week out. The Estonian squad is made up mostly of levidia tallinn players and other lads playing in lesser leagues in Europe.

topmanamillion

Corholio wrote: »

Agree with some thing, others I don't.

Whats wrong with trying out Towell in a friendly etc? There isn't sort regulations or a rule that you can't because the league isn't this and that. The message it would send out is that players could be given a chance. Rooney has been around loads of clubs and I'm sure management would be aware, and while I would have had him in the squad as well, that doesn't necessarily mean that rules out Towell because you don't pick him. Picking Towell for a squad wouldn't have any repurcussions except for the one where he might surprise a lot of people.

This isn't a 'poor ol LOI' thing either, it's just about giving players a chance. If we were flushed with talent it would be a lot harder argument but we are not, so I think there's definitely more scope for looking at different avenues.

If we are going to give lads a run out then the same argument can be made for Jack byrne or eunuan okane. Realistically Towel has been tested by a top side twice this year - bate borisov. In one game he acquitted reasonably himself well in the other he was a ghost.
The league is poor at the moment. I watch my own club sligo struggling to string 3 passes together and it's the same for probably 7-8 sides in the league. Those are the sides Towell is playing against. The fact is he failed at hibs and celtic, so there are question marks hanging over him that won't be answered playing in the Carlisle grounds or United Park.
I would love to see LOI players getting ireland caps but they have to deserve them,otherwise it cheapens an ireland cap. Stan handed out caps like they were confetti and very few players went on to be play any role for us.
As I said before, improve the league and then talk about caps otherwise it's just putting the ass before the cart.

dfx-

away to Poland is not the game to give players chances, but Gibraltar is.

Poor performances in two games is not in any description giving him a chance. It needs to be more than two games, you need to stick with a player, like people who go to one LOI game and declare it as rubbish.

topmanamillion

dfx- wrote: »

away to Poland is not the game to give players chances, but Gibraltar is.

Poor performances in two games is not in any description giving him a chance. It needs to be more than two games, you need to stick with a player, like people who go to one LOI game and declare it as rubbish.

I don't buy that. Why is a LOI player special as opposed to a player playing in a full time league who isn't getting caps?there are Irish players in the championship league one and 2 and the SPL. All arguably a higher standard than LOI and bar SPL leagues where crowds of 20k plus are common. Alot of them are playing regularly for their clubs and aren't getting ireland caps. Guys like eoin doyle or Jay oshea why are LOI players a special case? Who do you drop for that Gibraltar game? A premier league squad player or a championship player???

Tomagotchye

topmanamillion wrote: »

I don't buy that. Why is a LOI player special as opposed to a player playing in a full time league who isn't getting caps?there are Irish players in the championship league one and 2 and the SPL. All arguably a higher standard than LOI and bar SPL leagues where crowds of 20k plus are common. Alot of them are playing regularly for their clubs and aren't getting ireland caps. Guys like eoin doyle or Jay oshea why are LOI players a special case? Who do you drop for that Gibraltar game? A premier league squad player or a championship player???

Good point. I was just thinking something along these lines the other day

dfx-

topmanamillion wrote: »

I don't buy that. Why is a LOI player special as opposed to a player playing in a full time league who isn't getting caps?there are Irish players in the championship league one and 2 and the SPL. All arguably a higher standard than LOI and bar SPL leagues where crowds of 20k plus are common. Alot of them are playing regularly for their clubs and aren't getting ireland caps. Guys like eoin doyle or Jay oshea why are LOI players a special case? Who do you drop for that Gibraltar game? A premier league squad player or a championship player???

It's based on being open to trying out good enough new players. You could pick all of the above against some sides and friendlies if you wanted and see how they handle it. If you want to stay safe (and Irish team selection is ferociously conservative), stick with the same stale pack as you've outlined.

Dare not drop a squad player or Championship player:eek:

topmanamillion

dfx- wrote: »

It's based on being open to trying out good enough new players. You could pick all of the above against some sides and friendlies if you wanted and see how they handle it. If you want to stay safe (and Irish team selection is ferociously conservative), stick with the same stale pack as you've outlined.

Dare not drop a squad player or Championship player:eek:

Im not saying that I'm saying pick players on merit. There's been a few player who have emerged recently like Christie and Henderick. I think people like to argue that players should be included just for the sake of it. Picking players from obscurity and putting them in is very risky. You would be asking Towell to head off from oriel Park and play against Germany and Poland. I don't buy that we could just play him against the weaker teams. To get through a group you need to have your best 11 playing regularly.

Corholio

topmanamillion wrote: »

Im not saying that I'm saying pick players on merit. There's been a few player who have emerged recently like Christie and Henderick. I think people like to argue that players should be included just for the sake of it. Picking players from obscurity and putting them in is very risky. You would be asking Towell to head off from oriel Park and play against Germany and Poland. I don't buy that we could just play him against the weaker teams. To get through a group you need to have your best 11 playing regularly.

No one was saying that players in lower leagues shouldn't be given a chance, by all means, some of them might perform very good at such a level. The best 11 thing is very relative to what it actually is. Watching Doyle in his first 6 or 7 games for Cork City, I never would have imagined he'd play international football. Look at a lot of the Irish squad recently. Players like Hendrick, Christie, McGoldrick, Arter wouldn't even have been on most Irish fans radar at all, but some have come in and are now part of the squad. I don't think anyone is saying Towell should be included in squads consistently nor are they asking for him to be put in against Germany and Poland, just that he should be given a chance being the standout performer in the league here, and also the fact that he's not just a digger type player. He has an attacking flair that isn't always plentiful.

Omackeral

Nobody is saying pick Towell over Eoin Doyle or Jay O Shea but merely that he should be on the radar in some capacity potentially. It's not about LOI vs SPL vs League1 either. It's the management team's responsibility to seek out talent from all leagues. Nobody wants token LOI inclusions either afaik, that would be more damaging to the league actually. Call up for a friendly in Dublin would be class. I'd love to see it.

CSF

I don't think there is a point in calling up players for the sake of it either. Very little to suggest Towell would be up to international football. I get that Dundalk have much better strength and conditioning than other Irish clubs but I've never watched him and thought that he could go to a higher level and be just as effective.

I'd also buy that there'd be former LOI players who've moved over and made the grade in League 1 and the likes (Williams, Madden, Dawson, O'Shea, Mooney) who would be more suitable but still wouldn't add anything to what is already there.

What Towell really needs to do to prove himself is leave the comfort zone, be one of the few players who actually leaves LOI and goes onto play Championship football frequently, the gap between Championship and League 1 is pretty big and seems to be the separator for most LOI players.

The ones that have gone on and made it (Long, Hoolahan, McClean, Coleman etc) have almost all made it into international football. Seems to be the minimum requirement and I think that's fair enough considering even the Championship isn't exactly an elite European leagues and we've our pick of players playing in that league, most of whom aren't gonna improve what's already there.

shefellover93

Our final issue of the season is out now!

Interviews with former Cork City players Ian Turner and Tadhg Purcell, as well as with Éamon Zayed, Kevin McHugh and Danny Furlong, and Sligo pair Gavin Peers and Danny Ventre.

Pieces also on Kenny Finn who played with both Ireland and the USA, and a good look at the Conroy Report. We also give our opinion on the best XI of the year!

All available on LOIMonthly.com

Paz-CCFC

One thing to note about LoI players is that those who play for the top clubs gain experience in European competition. Getting a feel for playing football in different countries and against different cultures is vital for international football and it's something that you just don't get at the lower levels of the English game. If young lads break into the team around 18/19 and play 2-4 European matches a season (sometimes 6 and exceptionally, Rovers in 2011, 12), it gives them a huge boost. Look at someone like Forrester - he's only 22 and he's already played 14 Europa League and Champions League matches and travelled to seven different countries. There were lads for Rovers a few years ago aged about 20 that would've played 18 matches across a three year period. That's more continental experience for a single player than large parts of the national squad combined. We have players getting regular experience in front of intimidating crowds in Serbia, Poland, Russia, Germany, Ukraine etc. That's invaluable. The Polish fans provided a very intimidating atmosphere last Sunday and it does effect players. You don't get that at any lower league English ground (and, to be honest, you don't get it at most of the EPL grounds, either). You do get it at plenty of away grounds that LoI teams have played European matches in and it helps players' mental composure.

Now, that's not to say that these lads should be thrown in for potentially group-winning matches/play-offs. But the national set up should be open to calling up the cream of the crop of LoI football for training sessions/certain friendlies/perhaps to make late appearances in competitive matches like Gibraltar, which they'd work their arses off in to impress while the regular players would be lifting the foot off the accelerator in a match that's well won early on. Some of the younger international players can learn from the some of the LoI lads with Euro experience, as the LoI lads can learn from the national setup. And it can give hope that players in this country can get a chance at international football. That can help players drive on and help increase the overall base quality of football in Ireland, which can only benefit the national side.

CSF

The European football is invaluable for sure, but using the Forrester reference, you're still looking at one of the best players our has had in recent times, and he's still a League 1 footballer.

There are lots of great things about our league but the standard is not one of them. We kid ourselves sometimes and make it out to be better than it is (sometimes I see League 1 comparisons) but in reality, relative to the rest of the world it is pretty crap.

Omackeral

CSF wrote: »

The European football is invaluable for sure, but using the Forrester reference, you're still looking at one of the best players our has had in recent times, and he's still a League 1 footballer.

There are lots of great things about our league but the standard is not one of them. We kid ourselves sometimes and make it out to be better than it is (sometimes I see League 1 comparisons) but in reality, relative to the rest of the world it is pretty crap.

Nonsense. It's clearly #TheGreatestLeagueInTheWorld. You think that sh*t's tongue-in-cheek or something?!?

Pighead

Couple of matches confirmed by RTE today. Pats v Drogs game on live this Friday while RTE favourites Shamrock Rovers are on the following week when they travel to Limerick.

djpbarry

topmanamillion wrote: »

there are Irish players in the championship league one and 2 and the SPL. All arguably a higher standard than LOI and bar SPL leagues where crowds of 20k plus are common.

You’re seriously over-stating the size of attendances in English football - the average attendance in the Championship isn’t even 20,000.

djpbarry

CSF wrote: »

The ones that have gone on and made it (Long, Hoolahan, McClean, Coleman etc) have almost all made it into international football. Seems to be the minimum requirement and I think that's fair enough considering even the Championship isn't exactly an elite European leagues and we've our pick of players playing in that league...

I think people underestimate how high the standard in the Championship is. It might not be one of the top leagues in Europe, but it’s the seventh-richest in the world:
http://www2.deloitte.com/ba/en/pages/press/press-2014-06-05.html

CSF wrote: »

The European football is invaluable for sure, but using the Forrester reference, you're still looking at one of the best players our has had in recent times, and he's still a League 1 footballer.

He’s gone straight into Peterborough’s first team, to be fair, and seems pretty comfortable so far. And doesn’t that seem about right, anyway? I would say that the top clubs/players in the LOI are probably around about League 1 standard. Furthermore, in the last three League 1 seasons, Paddy Madden, Dave Mooney and Eoin Doyle, all ex-LOI, have been among the top scorers.

And let’s not forget, it’s not that long ago that Wes Hoolahan was playing in League 1.

All that said, I don’t think there’s a whole lot of difference between League 1 and 2, but the step up to the Championship is huge.

And I take your general point. It doesn’t surprise me that LOI players can cut the mustard in League 1, but they really need to be proving themselves at Championship level to be considered for the national side. Although, I would like to see a lot more Irish players in general looking beyond Britain – plenty of other quality leagues out there.

dreamers75

djpbarry wrote: »

You’re seriously over-stating the size of attendances in English football - the average attendance in the Championship isn’t even 20,000.

Its 17,846

CSF

I think most of the best LOI players are League One level yeah. Every now and again we have players who are capable of more and they're the ones that are good enough for international football.

The teams on the other hand vary between League 2 level and upper level non-league football IMO (ain't nobody convincing me that the Bray, Longford and Drogheda teams for example are competing in the football league). Some people might make a case for Dundalk being League 1 and I don't think it's an absurd thing to say but I wouldn't subscribe to that belief myself.

I think that O'Neill and Keane should be scouting or having the LOI extensively scouted so they're completely aware of all the Towell, Forrester, Masseys of the world, but ultimately I think these players have to go abroad and play at a better level than League 1. Doesn't even need to be England but I don't think that players playing the likes of Bray Wanderers or Walsall should be heavily considered for international football as long as we have players playing football at a level closer to what you're going to play internationally.

Tomagotchye

Pighead wrote: »

Couple of matches confirmed by RTE today. Pats v Drogs game on live this Friday while RTE favourites Shamrock Rovers are on the following week when they travel to Limerick.

Have Galway been on TV once? I cant yet to the games and I am always looking but I never see them selected regardless of opposition.

dundalkfc10

Tomagotchye wrote: »

Have Galway been on TV once? I cant yet to the games and I am always looking but I never see them selected regardless of opposition.

League Cup Final V Pats was on Setanta

topmanamillion

djpbarry wrote: »

You’re seriously over-stating the size of attendances in English football - the average attendance in the Championship isn’t even 20,000.

I never said 20k average I said 20k was common. There are certainly clubs in championship and league 1 who get those attendances.

topmanamillion

CSF wrote: »

I think most of the best LOI players are League One level yeah. Every now and again we have players who are capable of more and they're the ones that are good enough for international football.

The teams on the other hand vary between League 2 level and upper level non-league football IMO (ain't nobody convincing me that the Bray, Longford and Drogheda teams for example are competing in the football league). Some people might make a case for Dundalk being League 1 and I don't think it's an absurd thing to say but I wouldn't subscribe to that belief myself.

I think that O'Neill and Keane should be scouting or having the LOI extensively scouted so they're completely aware of all the Towell, Forrester, Masseys of the world, but ultimately I think these players have to go abroad and play at a better level than League 1. Doesn't even need to be England but I don't think that players playing the likes of Bray Wanderers or Walsall should be heavily considered for international football as long as we have players playing football at a level closer to what you're going to play internationally.

Spot on. The league has to improve to have good international calibre players and I hope it will.

Pinturicchio

Tomagotchye wrote: »

Have Galway been on TV once? I cant yet to the games and I am always looking but I never see them selected regardless of opposition.

Only the League Cup final. Have any other team not had a league game on TV all season?

topmanamillion

Pinturicchio wrote: »

Only the League Cup final. Have any other team not had a league game on TV all season?

I would imagine Galway management committee are delighted not to be on TV. TV coverage severely reduces attendances and there's no money given from RTE to offset it. Before I go any further I'm a sligo rovers fan.

The major problem with TV coverage is there's no strategy to use it effectively.
Every club wants to be on TV but none of them wants it to be a home game.

The league would be much better off picking a few marquee games that could get a good TV audience and show the league at its best. That package may well have value and command a price. Dundalk v bate got 135k and the Dundalk Cork game in front of 7k people also did very well on TV. Dundalk bate was the only European game televised this year as well which is a massive opportunity missed as this is one of the few occasions when league of ireland grounds are packed to the rafters.

TV coverage from poor grounds with paltry attendances is doing nothing for the league. I'm speaking generally there.

LoonyLovegood

Realistically, derby matches would do well. Bohs Rovers, Dundalk Drogheda, and top of the table clashes. Matches that people actually want to be at, rather than random ones.

topmanamillion

LoonyLovegood wrote: »

Realistically, derby matches would do well. Bohs Rovers, Dundalk Drogheda, and top of the table clashes. Matches that people actually want to be at, rather than random ones.

Exactly. The randominise of the televised game selection is mind boggling. I remember a few months back a nothing Pats v Bray game was picked over Cork and Dundalk. Fair enough the game was in Oriel but there was about 4k at it and it was a title fight at the time.

Wedwood

The comparisons to the English league is pointless as we'll never match them in terms of population, money etc. A better comparison is the likes of the SPL and Scandinavian leagues, who have similar populations, but have developed their leagues to a point where they can supply international players.

All those other leagues have overcome the shadow of the bigger leagues next to them whether it's the EPL, Bundesliga etc, to create an attractive domestic product.

The only thing stopping us doing the same is ourselves. We had a period up to the early 60's where our league had good support and regularly supplied internationals. We should never forget that and that our job is to try and figure out how we get the league back to its rightful place.

farna_boy

I suppose the thing that annoys me most about the Ireland team is that it is not unusual that you here of some player coming on as a substitute who hasn't played a competitive game all season. This has happened at least twice in recent history, the first was McGeady when he was playing in Russia, came on for some relatively important match and was clearly unfit. The second was again McGeady last Sunday where he has only played two competitive game all season, one in the capital cup and one for the Irish squad. Whatever about using LoI players, surely there has to be a player who is playing at least on a semi-regular basis who can come on in these situations?

Secondly, from what I can remember, I can only ever remember one or two players (who were current LoI players) ever getting called up to the Irish squad for any match. As a few have pointed out here, if the LoI is about the same standard as League 1, why are players from League 1 and 2 getting called up before their LoI counterparts?

This makes the LoI seem even worse from the perspective of Irish fans who don't follow the league when we have to resort to these players.

Surely if we can afford to play somebody from League 2 in a friendly, why can't we, as least occasionally give the same opportunity to a LoI player?

CSF

farna_boy wrote: »

I suppose the thing that annoys me most about the Ireland team is that it is not unusual that you here of some player coming on as a substitute who hasn't played a competitive game all season. This has happened at least twice in recent history, the first was McGeady when he was playing in Russia, came on for some relatively important match and was clearly unfit. The second was again McGeady last Sunday where he has only played two competitive game all season, one in the capital cup and one for the Irish squad. Whatever about using LoI players, surely there has to be a player who is playing at least on a semi-regular basis who can come on in these situations?

Secondly, from what I can remember, I can only ever remember one or two players (who were current LoI players) ever getting called up to the Irish squad for any match. As a few have pointed out here, if the LoI is about the same standard as League 1, why are players from League 1 and 2 getting called up before their LoI counterparts?

This makes the LoI seem even worse from the perspective of Irish fans who don't follow the league when we have to resort to these players.

Surely if we can afford to play somebody from League 2 in a friendly, why can't we, as least occasionally give the same opportunity to a LoI player?

But League of Ireland is not the same standard as League 1. League of Ireland's best players go play in League 1. The rest vary between League 2 level and non-league level.

Also, Irish internationals coming from League 1 and League 2 is very infrequent. I can't remember too many. The reason we can't at least occasionally play LOI players in international friendlies is that we don't have players good enough for international football.

We can kid ourselves all we want about how we're League 1 level, but really if say Bohs, Sligo or Drogheda had a team full of players of League 1 level, why wouldn't they just go play there and earn significantly more money. These teams are English non-league level. Dundalk, Pats, Cork, Rovers, probably the English League 2 equivalent because they pay the best remaining Irish players well for the privilege.

God only knows what that makes us in the First Division at this stage. Grim.

Darkglasses

CSF wrote: »

God only knows what that makes us in the First Division at this stage. Grim.

A bit better than the Luxembourg premier division?

CSF

Darkglasses wrote: »

A bit better than the Luxembourg premier division?

Are we though? Not that I'd consider this to be anything worth a boast.

Captain Havoc

I've often argued that teams like Dundalk are league 1/ lower championship. The problem is though that these players are not sharp enough because they're playing teams like Bray, Limerick, Galway and Longford week in week out and not often enough against the likes of Rovers or Cork. Stick Dundalk into the championsip, they'd sharpen up and probably survive. This is why I wouldn't be so quick to call up Richie Towell, while probably potentially good enough to play in the national team, coming up against Jason McGuinness is no match or good preparation for coming up against Russell Martin.

Captain Havoc

CSF wrote: »

Are we though? Not that I'd consider this to be anything worth a boast.

I think he was referencing UCD's victory against Dudelange.

CSF

Captain Havoc wrote: »

I've often argued that teams like Dundalk are league 1/ lower championship. The problem is though that these players are not sharp enough because they're playing teams like Bray, Limerick, Galway and Longford week in week out and not often enough against the likes of Rovers or Cork. Stick Dundalk into the championsip, they'd sharpen up and probably survive. This is why I wouldn't be so quick to call up Richie Towell, while probably potentially good enough to play in the national team, coming up against Jason McGuinness is no match or good preparation for coming up against Russell Martin.

I don't think there's much to support that argument. Why aren't those teams coming in to take their players then considering they can afford to pay much more money?

Maybe 1 or 2 of them could make the grade there though.

gimmick

This debate rarely gets anywhere, but current evidence is pretty bleak for LOI. Hoban and Gearoid Morrisey went to Oxford and Cambridge respecively a year ago. Both would have been considered as the higher echelon of LOI player. Neither are setting the world alight. Morrisey is barely playing ffs and Hoban has scored 2 since January.

djpbarry

topmanamillion wrote: »

I never said 20k average I said 20k was common.

And I’m disagreeing that it’s common, in League 1 and League 2 at least. Twenty thousand would be considered a massive crowd at League 2 level, in particular.

djpbarry

Wedwood wrote: »

The comparisons to the English league is pointless as we'll never match them in terms of population, money etc.

The fanbase in England is bigger, by virtue of the bigger population, but that fanbase is spread out over a lot more clubs. I would argue the big difference is that small, local clubs in England seem to be far more successful at attracting fans than LOI clubs are and I’m sure there’s something to be learned from them. Remember, they have to compete with the Premiership too.

Wedwood wrote: »

A better comparison is the likes of the SPL and Scandinavian leagues, who have similar populations, but have developed their leagues to a point where they can supply international players.

The SPL is a poor example, to be fair. There are plenty of Irish players in the SPL who will never be picked for Ireland squads – the standard is just too low, as is evident from the poor showing of SPL sides in Europe.

But we should absolutely be looking at the success of the Norwegian and Swedish leagues, although they have historically had reasonably high attendances relative to the LOI.

djpbarry

CSF wrote: »

We can kid ourselves all we want about how we're League 1 level, but really if say Bohs, Sligo or Drogheda had a team full of players of League 1 level, why wouldn't they just go play there and earn significantly more money. These teams are English non-league level. Dundalk, Pats, Cork, Rovers, probably the English League 2 equivalent because they pay the best remaining Irish players well for the privilege.

I don’t think the pay argument really stacks up to be honest. Conference players generally earn more than LOI Premier players, but that doesn’t mean the standard is higher. English football is awash with money at the moment and LOI clubs simply can’t compete, but it can’t last forever. You only have to look at the fact that West Brom and Crystal Palace are two of the biggest spenders in world football to very quickly reach the conclusion that money doesn’t always buy quality.

topmanamillion

djpbarry wrote: »

I don’t think the pay argument really stacks up to be honest. Conference players generally earn more than LOI Premier players, but that doesn’t mean the standard is higher. English football is awash with money at the moment and LOI clubs simply can’t compete, but it can’t last forever. You only have to look at the fact that West Brom and Crystal Palace are two of the biggest spenders in world football to very quickly reach the conclusion that money doesn’t always buy quality.

Your West Brom and crystal palace reference brings to mind the old quote there's lies, Dam lies and then there is statistics. Both clubs have came from being lower league to yo yo clubs in the last number of years. Their reasoning for spending money was to maintain their premier league status. Considering they have become standard mid table clubs and guarantee themselves a share of a 2billion pound TV deal, that would appear to be money very well spent.
From a football point of view o have seen much better games in L2 this season than in the LOI. But that's to be expected surely, L2 players are all full time professionals. While LOI players (bar our few elite players) are part time to amateur.
There have been some very poor games this year particularly and disappointingly between some of our top side. A game against Shams and Cork on TV a few weeks ago sticks out as a dreadful game where both sides couldn't make 3 passes.
I'm trying to be constructively critical as I believe much more could be done to improve the league. But talk of internationals and being as good as full time clubs is nonsense.

miroslavklose

gimmick wrote: »

This debate rarely gets anywhere, but current evidence is pretty bleak for LOI. Hoban and Gearoid Morrisey went to Oxford and Cambridge respecively a year ago. Both would have been considered as the higher echelon of LOI player. Neither are setting the world alight. Morrisey is barely playing ffs and Hoban has scored 2 since January.

Depends what you mean by higher echelon - if you mean in the top 30 or 40 players, maybe. Hoban was a slow and cumbersome striker who had a very good year. Morrissey was an injury-prone midfielder who, likewise, had one very good year.

djpbarry

topmanamillion wrote: »

Your West Brom and crystal palace reference brings to mind the old quote there's lies, Dam lies and then there is statistics. Both clubs have came from being lower league to yo yo clubs in the last number of years. Their reasoning for spending money was to maintain their premier league status. Considering they have become standard mid table clubs and guarantee themselves a share of a 2billion pound TV deal, that would appear to be money very well spent.

I think you may have misunderstood my post (or perhaps I didn’t explain myself properly). Over the summer, Newcastle, Sunderland, West Brom and Crystal Palace were among the biggest net spenders in Europe – all four were in the top fifteen:
http://www.football-observatory.com/IMG/pdf/wp119_eng.pdf

Is that a reflection of the quality of the sides assembled? I would have to say no.

As we've seen ourselves in the LOI over the years, money doesn't always buy quality.

gimmick

miroslavklose wrote: »

Depends what you mean by higher echelon - if you mean in the top 30 or 40 players, maybe. Hoban was a slow and cumbersome striker who had a very good year. Morrissey was an injury-prone midfielder who, likewise, had one very good year.

Was Hoban not top scorer 2 years in a row? Slow maybe, but he knew where the net was.

Morrissey had a terrific engine for us and our form dropped when he was not in the side over a few seasons.

CSF

djpbarry wrote: »

I don’t think the pay argument really stacks up to be honest. Conference players generally earn more than LOI Premier players, but that doesn’t mean the standard is higher. English football is awash with money at the moment and LOI clubs simply can’t compete, but it can’t last forever. You only have to look at the fact that West Brom and Crystal Palace are two of the biggest spenders in world football to very quickly reach the conclusion that money doesn’t always buy quality.

That wasn't the really argument. The point was that if regular LOI Premier players were good enough to play at that level, why wouldn't they go over there and make a very good amount of money? Of course they would.

That doesn't equate to an argument at all about how well Premier League clubs spend their money.

topmanamillion

djpbarry wrote: »

I think you may have misunderstood my post (or perhaps I didn’t explain myself properly). Over the summer, Newcastle, Sunderland, West Brom and Crystal Palace were among the biggest net spenders in Europe – all four were in the top fifteen:
http://www.football-observatory.com/IMG/pdf/wp119_eng.pdf

Is that a reflection of the quality of the sides assembled? I would have to say no.

As we've seen ourselves in the LOI over the years, money doesn't always buy quality.

I understand the point you are trying to make. But the flip side is money does attract good players. It's definitely not a sure fire formula and the fact one player is on 20k week doesn't necessarily make him better than a player on a quarter of that. But the likes of newcastle and Sunderland have always been forced to pay a premium to players because of their geographical location. It's an entirely different issue to the one being discussed here.
Sides like Stoke are now buying players off Barcelona and top French clubs. They are also playing attractive football. I look at the bottom teams in the EPL and then I look at lower level champions league clubs. Zagreb, malmoa etc which have better sides? I would have to say the bottom EPL clubs. Traditionally that wasn't the case and European football made places like Benfica and Ajax top destinations. But the money in the EPL has changed all that and made relegation battles/and mid table mediocrity at Stoke and crystal palace far more appealing than historically great European clubs.

Corholio

miroslavklose wrote: »

Depends what you mean by higher echelon - if you mean in the top 30 or 40 players, maybe. Hoban was a slow and cumbersome striker who had a very good year. Morrissey was an injury-prone midfielder who, likewise, had one very good year.

Injury prone!? 1 very good year? No disrespect but you obviously didn't watch him......like at all.

Are you thinking of the other Morrissey?

Charliebull

Richie Ryan looked class playing in a good sligo team,
Went to Dundee and never recovered,

Eoin Doyle was average and had one great year, has he even played for Cardiff yet

Then again Seamus Coleman looked good but never best right back in England material so maybe it's down to coaching and attitude

Tomagotchye

The league's coaching is obviously a good part of the problem. Plus the fact they don't get them in the clubs young enough. How do the clubs even find players? What's the catchment area, do they have scouting networks or do they stick very close to their base? I actually have no idea but I'd be interested to find out. Quality is based on getting players in and teaching them the right stuff at the right time.

topmanamillion

Tomagotchye wrote: »

The league's coaching is obviously a good part of the problem. Plus the fact they don't get them in the clubs young enough. How do the clubs even find players? What's the catchment area, do they have scouting networks or do they stick very close to their base? I actually have no idea but I'd be interested to find out. Quality is based on getting players in and teaching them the right stuff at the right time.

Clubs generally stick close to home. In the case of sligo rovers they pick alot of promising young players out of the Mayo league. We have a young lad from bellmullet called Gary boyland who's 19 and we've just given a 2 year contract.
The youth structure is a massive issue for clubs. I've always found it bizarre that a small local club based in a village will have players usually from U8 upwards while LOI clubs have no such structure.
The issue is being addressed with the u17 and u19 league and there is strong suggestions there will be an u15 league in the not too distant future. Considering the general rule that any player who has not learnt the skills of the game by 12 won't go on to an elite level the problem is very clear - clubs need to get players in very young and coach them 4-5 times a week.
Not alone does it produce better players but it also fosters ties with local families and communities.
At the moment player recruitment is very ad hoc. There's alot of reasons for that. LOI clubs lack funds to set up national scouting networks and also alot of the bigger junior clubs particularly large Dublin clubs would prefer to see their players go to England where they can get a fee/compensation from English clubs. The down side of that is we send off young boys at 15-16 and expect them to compete against academy graduates from top academies around Europe.

miroslavklose

gimmick wrote: »

Was Hoban not top scorer 2 years in a row? Slow maybe, but he knew where the net was.

Morrissey had a terrific engine for us and our form dropped when he was not in the side over a few seasons.

He was top scorer once. Had a pretty good first season for Dundalk, might have been their top scorer then too. Worked well in a team that needed his physicality and, yeah, he was a terrific finisher, but it hasn't transferred over.

Morrissey has a great engine yeah, but that's not an uncommon trait in a midfielder, even in this league.

Corholio wrote: »

Injury prone!? 1 very good year? No disrespect but you obviously didn't watch him......like at all.

Are you thinking of the other Morrissey?

Well he had one very good year, I'm not sure how you could deny that. He was part of an inconsistent Cork midfield for a couple of years despite the presence of an experienced international beside him. He had a great year in 2014 but nobody would have said he was one of the league's top players before that, because he wasn't. I may have exaggerated the injury-proneness in my head.