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Gardai and bystanders injured as teenagers go on a crime rampage

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    #92
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    prizefighter wrote: »
    I think the thought process would be that if the person's criminality had a broader reaching effect on family and loved ones, parents and siblings would be forced to try control the upcoming violent offenders. It is like saying we should jail parents for their child's truancy. It puts the onus on the family unit to try guide these little thugs back to some semblance of normality.

    As we don't collectively punish Irish citizens I can't see it being possible with EU citizens.


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    #93
    Skylinehead
    Registered Users Posts: 11,690 ✭✭✭✭Skylinehead


    spurious wrote: »
    You mean bring them up properly?

    So when some Irish teenage scrote does something, which they will, we can just chuck their entire family into Mountjoy. Grand so.


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    #94
    prizefighter
    Registered Users Posts: 231 ✭✭prizefighter


    Nodin wrote: »
    As we don't collectively punish Irish citizens I can't see it being possible with EU citizens.

    And without putting any of the onus of a juveniles behaviour back on their parents we are seeing much more antisocial behaviour across the board. Stop making this about nationality, it is a tiring cliched PC tactic. These delinquents have caused injury and damage while on a crime spree. They are clearly heading down the wrong path and need both parenting and guidance. the state needs to change its tact from the softly softly approach to a harsher more punitive and prohibitive one.


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    #95
    prizefighter
    Registered Users Posts: 231 ✭✭prizefighter


    Skylinehead wrote: »
    So when some Irish teenage scrote does something, which they will, we can just chuck their entire family into Mountjoy. Grand so.

    No BUT if in this instance a person's family is in Ireland by the grace of the state allowing them to be there then as a punitive measure they should look at removing them based on the severity of the crimes committed.
    If an Irish juvenile goes on a crime spree hefty fines or s/w reductions should be looked at for their families as well as monitoring of the family structure etc to ensure the offender has the oppurtunity to be rehabilitated through a strong family life as opposed to being a career criminal by the age of 16.


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    #96
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,049 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    RobYourBuilder wrote: »
    EU citizens can be deported on grounds of public policy, public security and public health.
    yeah. in very very extreme situations. dayz foreigners, or i don't like ja foreigners aren't reasons

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #97
    RobYourBuilder
    Registered Users Posts: 1,541 ✭✭✭RobYourBuilder


    end of the road wrote: »
    yeah. in very very extreme situations. dayz foreigners, or i don't like ja foreigners aren't reasons

    No, but theft, attempted hijacking of motor vehicles and violently assaulting numerous people, including Gardai, most certainly is.


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    #98
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,049 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    prizefighter wrote: »
    I'm not sure you've ever experienced the intricacies of Australian visa and immigration processes but once you're deported you are NOT coming back.

    oh you are. not legally, but since when did that stop people.
    prizefighter wrote: »
    It is not land locked so you need to fly in or arrive on a beach in the Northern Territories inside an old banana crate.

    plenty of perfect ways of getting in so
    prizefighter wrote: »
    Either way the immigration dept will soon have you on Manus island awaiting another deportation.

    not at all. there are plenty of places to hide in australia. lets face it, detectives or even come close, the immigration lot aren't
    prizefighter wrote: »
    If an Irish person ****s around over here and the crime is deemed suitably serious they can and will send you packing and rightfully so.

    not at all. its their job to punish you for your crime in their country seeing as they have a humane prison system.
    prizefighter wrote: »
    They revoked a Maltese guys citizenship when he went back to Malta on holiday, he is the head of a bikie gang and a violent maniac, now he is locked out of Australia for good.

    oh he can get back in if he wants. not legally, but since when did that stop people.
    prizefighter wrote: »
    Seems like a reasonable course of action.

    not at all. they have to share the burdin.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #99
    prizefighter
    Registered Users Posts: 231 ✭✭prizefighter


    end of the road wrote: »
    yeah. in very very extreme situations. dayz foreigners, or i don't like ja foreigners aren't reasons

    So now this is ALL about these kids nationality and nothing to do with their crimes. This is tiresome. No one wants to boot someone out just because they are foreign so you can get that particular chip off your shoulder. Deportation would be used as a punitive measure for criminals. Phonetically typing out drivel to make everyone else seem like malcontented ignorant racists is a measure of your ability to argue, clearly. This thread is about two juveniles committing a string of violent crimes, discussing the inadequacies of the Irish court system and also alternative recourse for these two delinquents. Stop muddying the waters.


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    #100
    RobYourBuilder
    Registered Users Posts: 1,541 ✭✭✭RobYourBuilder


    lets face it, detectives or even come close, the immigration lot aren't

    Listen to Yoda here.


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    #101
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,049 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    prizefighter wrote: »
    Well, yeah. Also some of these little scrotes couldn't give two ****s what happens to themselves but might actually care if their actions impact their whole family. If you make the punishment bigger than the individual they might just think before trying to carjack people, bash women or assault the gardai.
    they wouldn't. punishing a whole family for the actions of one is illegitimate and the action of a terrorist state which ireland isn't. so we won't be going down that route

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #102
    Ruu
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,622 ✭✭✭Ruu


    They ought to be sent home. Living in a country that is not your own is a privilege and if you act the lad, then they should be told to leave and not allowed back in.


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    #103
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,049 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    prizefighter wrote: »
    And without putting any of the onus of a juveniles behaviour back on their parents we are seeing much more antisocial behaviour across the board. Stop making this about nationality, it is a tiring cliched PC tactic. These delinquents have caused injury and damage while on a crime spree. They are clearly heading down the wrong path and need both parenting and guidance. the state needs to change its tact from the softly softly approach to a harsher more punitive and prohibitive one.
    its not a pc tactic as pc doesn't exist. punishing the parents doesn't stop anti-social behaviour but encourages it as people take revenge for the illegitimate actions of a terrorist state which would implement such policies

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #104
    prizefighter
    Registered Users Posts: 231 ✭✭prizefighter


    end of the road wrote: »
    oh you are. not legally, but since when did that stop people.



    plenty of perfect ways of getting in so



    not at all. there are plenty of places to hide in australia. lets face it, detectives or even come close, the immigration lot aren't



    not at all. its their job to punish you for your crime in their country seeing as they have a humane prison system.



    oh he can get back in if he wants. not legally, but since when did that stop people.



    not at all. they have to share the burdin.

    So my initial point stands... You clearly don't know anything about Australian visa processing or their immigration department. Your argument style is pretty astounding, you refute any point by saying 'yes they can' as if you are stating facts instead of just pulling notions out of your arse.


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    #105
    RobYourBuilder
    Registered Users Posts: 1,541 ✭✭✭RobYourBuilder


    Deporting them would mean that Ireland is a illegitimate terrorist state?

    Jaysus.


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    #106
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,049 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    prizefighter wrote: »
    No BUT if in this instance a person's family is in Ireland by the grace of the state allowing them to be there then as a punitive measure they should look at removing them based on the severity of the crimes committed.
    If an Irish juvenile goes on a crime spree hefty fines or s/w reductions should be looked at for their families as well as monitoring of the family structure etc to ensure the offender has the oppurtunity to be rehabilitated through a strong family life as opposed to being a career criminal by the age of 16.
    to do so would be racist and illegitimate. collective punishment is for terrorist states or states with sharia law. punishing a whole family for the actions of one causes greater problems as the person takes revenge for the illegitimate actions of the state. to reduce SW would also lead to more crime which wouldn't be cost effective in the long run for the tax payer

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #107
    K.Flyer
    Registered Users Posts: 8,565 ✭✭✭K.Flyer


    end of the road wrote: »
    its not a pc tactic as pc doesn't exist. punishing the parents doesn't stop anti-social behaviour but encourages it as people take revenge for the illegitimate actions of a terrorist state which would implement such policies

    Are you actually stating that you believe that Ireland is a terrorist state?


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    #108
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,049 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    RobYourBuilder wrote: »
    No, but theft, attempted hijacking of motor vehicles and violently assaulting numerous people, including Gardai, most certainly is.
    we have a prison system for such crimes

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #109
    RobYourBuilder
    Registered Users Posts: 1,541 ✭✭✭RobYourBuilder


    end of the road wrote: »
    not at all. we don't want them. send them back to australia upon their return

    Under what grounds? They are Irish citizens who fell foul of the law and violated the terms of their Australian visas. Hence why Australia is deporting them.


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    #110
    Tugboats
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,011 ✭✭✭Tugboats


    end of the road wrote: »
    they wouldn't. punishing a whole family for the actions of one is illegitimate and the action of a terrorist state which ireland isn't. so we won't be going down that route

    The list of countries you consider terrorist states must be very big. Do find it difficult to go on a summer holiday?


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    #111
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,049 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    prizefighter wrote: »
    So now this is ALL about these kids nationality and nothing to do with their crimes. This is tiresome. No one wants to boot someone out just because they are foreign so you can get that particular chip off your shoulder. Deportation would be used as a punitive measure for criminals. Phonetically typing out drivel to make everyone else seem like malcontented ignorant racists is a measure of your ability to argue, clearly. This thread is about two juveniles committing a string of violent crimes, discussing the inadequacies of the Irish court system and also alternative recourse for these two delinquents. Stop muddying the waters.
    deporting someone as a punitive measure for crime doesn't work, they just come back. more cost effective to lock them up

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #112
    RobYourBuilder
    Registered Users Posts: 1,541 ✭✭✭RobYourBuilder


    end of the road wrote: »
    we have a prison system for such crimes

    Yes and we have grounds to deport them upon completion of their sentence. Why do you want them to remain in the state?


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    #113
    prizefighter
    Registered Users Posts: 231 ✭✭prizefighter


    end of the road wrote: »
    they wouldn't. punishing a whole family for the actions of one is illegitimate and the action of a terrorist state which ireland isn't. so we won't be going down that route

    What is a terrorist state?! Deporting foreign crminals. Forcing parents to actually parent their kids?! Encouraging parents to guide their kids away from criminality. Yeah sounds like a right dystopian nightmare.


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    #114
    prizefighter
    Registered Users Posts: 231 ✭✭prizefighter


    end of the road wrote: »
    deporting someone as a punitive measure for crime doesn't work, they just come back. more cost effective to lock them up

    I can assure you a plane ticket is ALOT cheaper than a 6month prison sentence.


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    #115
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,049 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    prizefighter wrote: »
    So my initial point stands... You clearly don't know anything about Australian visa processing or their immigration department. Your argument style is pretty astounding, you refute any point by saying 'yes they can' as if you are stating facts instead of just pulling notions out of your arse.
    not true. there are plenty of places for people to come into australia illegally and hide out. the immigration lot might be more active over there but if america can't stop illegals from getting in anywhere with all the money they throw at it then what hope has australia. america might be land connected in parts but both land and beach have their own advantages and disadvantages

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #116
    humberklog
    Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 10,497 Mod ✭✭✭✭humberklog


    end of the road wrote: »
    deporting someone as a punitive measure for crime doesn't work, they just come back. more cost effective to lock them up

    Can you provide a link to the source of research for this statement?


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    #117
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,049 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    K.Flyer wrote: »
    Are you actually stating that you believe that Ireland is a terrorist state?
    no, i stated we aren't hence we won't be going down the route of collective punishment

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #118
    Skylinehead
    Registered Users Posts: 11,690 ✭✭✭✭Skylinehead


    prizefighter wrote: »
    No BUT if in this instance a person's family is in Ireland by the grace of the state allowing them to be there then as a punitive measure they should look at removing them based on the severity of the crimes committed.
    Sure, for the people that committed the crime. But I'm failing to see what the family did wrong.

    If an Irish juvenile goes on a crime spree hefty fines or s/w reductions should be looked at for their families as well as monitoring of the family structure etc to ensure the offender has the oppurtunity to be rehabilitated through a strong family life as opposed to being a career criminal by the age of 16.
    Again, collective punishment is a bit draconian isn't it?


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    #119
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users Posts: 25,516 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    prizefighter wrote: »
    So my initial point stands... You clearly don't know anything about Australian visa processing or their immigration department. Your argument style is pretty astounding, you refute any point by saying 'yes they can' as if you are stating facts instead of just pulling notions out of your arse.

    Welcome to the wonderful world of EOTR


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    #120
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    prizefighter wrote: »
    And without putting any of the onus of a juveniles behaviour back on their parents we are seeing much more antisocial behaviour across the board. Stop making this about nationality, it is a tiring cliched PC tactic. These delinquents have caused injury and damage while on a crime spree. They are clearly heading down the wrong path and need both parenting and guidance. the state needs to change its tact from the softly softly approach to a harsher more punitive and prohibitive one.


    ...which tired reactionary notion rather ignores the fact that far harsher methods were used in the past against both juveniles and adults and did not work.


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    #121
    reprise
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,372 ✭✭✭reprise


    end of the road wrote: »
    no, i stated we aren't hence we won't be going down the route of collective punishment

    Ok, being the proud Sinn Fein supporter you are, how's about some good old punishment shootings?


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