Is this staff bullying?

Pinkycharm

Just at the lunch table today we were having a conversation about bullying and one of the NQTs said that she felt like she was being picked on by the vice principal.

On numerous occasions said vice principal has walked in on her classes to remove jackets and scarves from students and just today, she had finished class a minute or two before the bell. The students were packing their bags and had gathered at the top of the room and she was answering questions other students had. He marched in the door and asked all the students to sit down- in the process of this the school bell went and he went off.

She just feels like she is being targeted and that it's always her classes he falls into.

Didn't really have much advice for her, because he's not someone you would really approach- vice would be quicker to take the student's side than the teachers. She was told there would be hours next year but she said she wouldn't be able to deal with him walking in and out of her room.

I know for a fact that they do not do this to the other NQTS or people on short term contracts. Be a shame for her to miss out on hours next year over this.

What do ye think? I think he completely undermined her walking in on her today but not sure if I would class it as bullying. She feels really intimidated by him and I felt bad for her today. Our school is great and I havent seen this side really to our vice.

r93kaey5p2izun

I'm not sure I would call it bullying but it's incredibly unprofessional! Sounds like someone who needs a few more courses in effective leadership and management skills followed by a course in basic manners. Very tough position for an NQT to be in though, especially if it is only them, rather than a number of staff, affected.

Pinkycharm

Bobby Quiet Hearse wrote: »

I'm not sure I would call it bullying but it's incredibly unprofessional! Sounds like someone who needs a few more courses in effective leadership and management skills followed by a course in basic manners. Very tough position for an NQT to be in though, especially if it is only them, rather than a number of staff, affected.

I agree, I think it is really unprofessional of him. He's never come near me let alone my classes and the others that started with her have never seen him in theirs either.

She was very upset about it today, especially when he more or less undermined her in front of her class.

evolving_doors

Sounds like a little bit of a backstory might be missing...

Has it ever been said (meeting/announcement) that students are not to wear coats in class! Also, anything ever said about students being let out early?

Its usually students who rat out the teacher ... I.e. "Miss Smith always lets us wear coats in her class... Mr. Jones always lets us out 5 mins early"... then usually the other teacher may march straight to the vice/principal to put the young NQT usurper back in her place.. so rather than being straight up the principal/vice tries to make the point by bursting in on the class to catch the teacher out publicly in front of the students...

Maybe?

spurious

If it's only her and not others and is happening on a regular basis, it smells very much like targetted bullying to me. She should keep a record of every incident.

Mourinho

Is there any chance he thinks maybe they are too unwily and he actually thinks he's helping her?

r93kaey5p2izun

Armelodie wrote: »

Sounds like a little bit of a backstory might be missing...

Has it ever been said (meeting/announcement) that students are not to wear coats in class! Also, anything ever said about students being let out early?

Its usually students who rat out the teacher ... I.e. "Miss Smith always lets us wear coats in her class... Mr. Jones always lets us out 5 mins early"... then usually the other teacher may march straight to the vice/principal to put the young NQT usurper back in her place.. so rather than being straight up the principal/vice tries to make the point by bursting in on the class to catch the teacher out publicly in front of the students...

Maybe?

Sounds plausible, but no less unprofessional.

Pinkycharm

Armelodie wrote: »

Sounds like a little bit of a backstory might be missing...

Has it ever been said (meeting/announcement) that students are not to wear coats in class! Also, anything ever said about students being let out early?

Its usually students who rat out the teacher ... I.e. "Miss Smith always lets us wear coats in her class... Mr. Jones always lets us out 5 mins early"... then usually the other teacher may march straight to the vice/principal to put the young NQT usurper back in her place.. so rather than being straight up the principal/vice tries to make the point by bursting in on the class to catch the teacher out publicly in front of the students...

Maybe?

we've no policy as it stands on jackets or being let out early. students just have to stay in the classroom until the bell. Jackets are allowed because we are in the middle of a huge renovation and all the rooms are freezing.

Its very much targeted I believe myself after hearing her. The girl was nearly in tears that her students won't take her seriously any more.

spurious wrote: »

If it's only her and not others and is happening on a regular basis, it smells very much like targetted bullying to me. She should keep a record of every incident.

she has noted it all down.

Mourinho wrote: »

Is there any chance he thinks maybe they are too unwily and he actually thinks he's helping her?

she asked for help a while back with a 5th year class and he promised to speak with them but never did. We have a brilliant discipline policy that is followed to an extent only if the teachers push it through. NQTs really have no support in our school- it pains me to say it.

Pinkycharm

Mourinho wrote: »

Is there any chance he thinks maybe they are too unwily and he actually thinks he's helping her?

The class she had today are angels!

gaiscioch

Pinkycharm wrote: »

She was told there would be hours next year but she said she wouldn't be able to deal with him walking in and out of her room.
I know for a fact that they do not do this to the other NQTS or people on short term contracts. Be a shame for her to miss out on hours next year over this.

I think this is the critical context for assessing this. Even though he isn't "someone you would really approach" I would classify this as serious enough to ask him for a meeting to clear the air and see where he feels she's going wrong. If there is not a discussion the NQT could become more paranoid and unhappy. She has nothing to lose by getting clarity on her position by straight talking (in a polite, cordial way of course). On mental health grounds there's everything to gain by such clarity.

Pinkycharm wrote: »

What do ye think? I think he completely undermined her walking in on her today but not sure if I would class it as bullying. She feels really intimidated by him and I felt bad for her today. Our school is great and I havent seen this side really to our vice.

Leaving aside the important context, I have to say my principal drops into my classes and throws daggers at me from time to time - journals out, coats off, what are you doing out of your seat, etc. The looks are really water off a duck's back as far as I'm concerned, but then again I'm permanent. I've no objection to it at all because the students in question usually settle down quickly as their behaviour has been noted by the principal and we can get on with the class. In addition, the principal dropping in at random keeps them behaved a bit better. If the principal were, however, to criticise me in front of them then that would, in my view, be a clear wrong on the part of the principal and I would take it further in as calm and considered a manner as possible if it upset me sufficiently.

No matter what somebody's employment status is, I do believe that frank, respectful discussions are the healthiest way about going the vast majority of workplace issues. Everybody knows where they stand and what's expected of them so there are no misunderstandings or disappointments because expectations aren't being met. At the end of the day, no job is worth having if it's damaging somebody's mental health.

Pinkycharm

gaiscioch wrote: »

I think this is the critical context for assessing this. Even though he isn't "someone you would really approach" I would classify this as serious enough to ask him for a meeting to clear the air and see where he feels she's going wrong. If there is not a discussion the NQT could become more paranoid and unhappy. She has nothing to lose by getting clarity on her position by straight talking (in a polite, cordial way of course). On mental health grounds there's everything to gain by such clarity.




Leaving aside the important context, I have to say my principal drops into my classes and throws daggers at me from time to time - journals out, coats off, what are you doing out of your seat, etc. The looks are really water off a duck's back as far as I'm concerned, but then again I'm permanent. I've no objection to it at all because the students in question usually settle down quickly as their behaviour has been noted by the principal and we can get on with the class. In addition, the principal dropping in at random keeps them behaved a bit better. If the principal were, however, to criticise me in front of them then that would, in my view, be a clear wrong on the part of the principal and I would take it further in as calm and considered a manner as possible if it upset me sufficiently.

No matter what somebody's employment status is, I do believe that frank, respectful discussions are the healthiest way about going the vast majority of workplace issues. Everybody knows where they stand and what's expected of them so there are no misunderstandings or disappointments because expectations aren't being met. At the end of the day, no job is worth having if it's damaging somebody's mental health.

yeah she was very embarrassed about it and she said the students could probably tell she was too. It would be a shame to lose her because she has done loads in the school already- she set up and trains a basketball team, has set up TY Guest Speakers and mentors a few students as well. He does get up on a high horse every so often, calling teachers into the office to discuss something they've done or said to a student. One of our NQTs did stand up to him about allowing her students to call her by her first name and he didn't back down for a good while but she had stood her ground with him and he eventually backed off from her. Shes invisible more or less to him now but she doesnt care. This girl, I could see her caving.

evolving_doors

Ya sounds odd, especially if he's promising more hours next year (any principal 'promising hours' is either plámásing to keep a good teacher from looking elsewhere or else just being foolish).

If it continues and its obvious that shes being singled out then its either:
A) Have it out.
Do nothing.

If she's going to have it out then definitely not on her own (bring union rep to minute/witness the meeting , might be extreme but maybe both parties sign off on things discussed!).

Of course there's the old chestnut of the reference!

Pinkycharm

i just think its odd behavior altogether from a Vice Principal.

Aineoil

Pinkycharm wrote: »

We have a brilliant discipline policy that is followed to an extent only if the teachers push it through.

Now I have to agree with the other posters, it is unprofessional but I have seen situations like this happen and it's always horrible.

Personally I wouldn't challenge the VP, this girl needs a reference at the end of the day. It doesn't resolve the situation in any way, but sometimes you can't.

Maybe the VP is the type of person who targets one person before moving onto the next person. It happens, again there's no resolution.

My only words of wisdom for her is to keep her head down, plan lessons meticulously (with notes), keep all student records updated with test results and assessments etc. Smile all the the time.....if some people see they are pushing your buttons they will continue to do so. We live in a world with people who are not nice.

At the beginning I did post a quote about the discipline policy of the school.
A brilliant discipline policy that is followed only if teachers push it through?

Sounds like it makes a good read - the discipline policy. A policy is only as good as its implementation. If only some push it through....... I do wonder?

Noccy_Mondy

Very unprofessional alright On the VP's part.
I know in my place, these cold days (and cold rooms) I wouldn't be too strict on the jackets off policy. Although once weather changes I stick to it vigirously. Anywho, if the VP ever needs to come in to me for a message or to speak to the class, and she spots someone with a jacket on, she won't be long scoulding them over it. She'll always give me a nod or gentle smile afterwards, which to me completley changes the situation and makes it alright somehow, as opposed to undermining me.


Very OT, but since it happened to me today (and a few times preciously) I need to get it off ny chest. There I was teaching away, and from the start the class next door was so loud, walls aren't very soundproof so it was quite distracting. Ye know where this is going!! About 20 minutes into the class I get rightly ticked off, and storm out my door, and assuming that there couldn't possibly be a teacher in with them, and they closed the door themselves, I barge in next door and start to shout. Little did I know there was a teacher on TP with them. Just said sorry and left. SUch a cringe moment. Apologosed to her later. It's happened to us all, right?

amacca

My vice principal used to do this when she started in the position and still did sporadically afterwards.

Initially it used to give me pause for thought - lets be honest the same one or two would usually be wearing jackets or hoodies and more often than not I wouldn't have noticed as I'd be giving more priority to establishing order/discipline and actually teaching the subject…so hilariously I felt like I was at fault even though they are disobeying the rules and to go after them would have resulted in arguments, bad feeling and lots and lots of time wasting in class and out of it so poor are the consequences for students not obeying these kinds of rules in most schools these days….it used to make me feel slightly guilty

It didn't feel great and I wouldn't dream of doing it to another teacher as it is a bit undermining tbh but instead of getting wound up about it I decided to adopt a hands off approach, the management team were on a uniform enforcement binge anyway as I think they had a mallory towers esque vision of what the school should become so I thought let them have at it and I'll continue on with my trying to get my classes good results binge the best way I can and that was by not sweating the little things.

long story short….In my case I don't think they were bullying me, I think they were just more likely to see those one or two without the shoes or the jumper in my classes and they were on a mission and so couldn't hold back - perhaps they should have…but they never brought it up over five years or complained to me directly etc - I think it was a molehill I could have made a mountain out of if I was so inclined.

Maybe thats not whats happening here but in the case of an NQT looking for hours/reference then maybe discretion is the better part of valour, make an added effort to state clearly at the beginning that everyone in class has to be in proper uniform and then next time he barges in if some have not complied say you've made a note of it in journal or recorded it on system etc when he speaks to the student in question - make it clear you are not at fault, you have followed the procedure (without being defensive or snippy)…..e.g.: yes mr bargy/underminey.

I did tell johnny he needed a proper uniform jumper but he wouldnt put it on so I wrote him a note etc……it doesn't have to be a confrontation in class beforehand…just a clear concise statement of the rules, the written record of the misdemeanour (so its not getting away unrecorded) and move on - your ass is covered and the class knows your not bothered and they won't get away with it if those further up the line really are concerned about chasing it up.

One other point which may be of use - things tend to be way more undermining if you let them be…if you act is if this is perfectly O.K. the class tend not to notice or question incidents like this - in my experience the don't confer lower status on you because of it if you play it as if it doesn't matter - you can even use it to your advantage - your the decent one they like and want to do well for and the management are the suits/conformists/killjoys - but maybe thats advanced jedi level education :pac:

juneg

I would just advise any young teacher to develop a thicker skin.
She'll meet a lot more ignorant staff, kids, parents throughout her teaching career and she'll want to have learned the knack of not letting them get to her. And they are not always the older ones either!!

I'm a great believer in "little acts of rebellion", which in a small way gives you back a sense of control and feeling like you are standing up to them....
Instead of being upset by the vice, I would continue to do the thing that pisses him off (sporadically) just because it pisses him off.:D

TonyStark

juneg wrote: »

I would just advise any young teacher to develop a thicker skin.
She'll meet a lot more ignorant staff, kids, parents throughout her teaching career and she'll want to have learned the knack of not letting them get to her. And they are not always the older ones either!!

I'm a great believer in "little acts of rebellion", which in a small way gives you back a sense of control and feeling like you are standing up to them....
Instead of being upset by the vice, I would continue to do the thing that pisses him off (sporadically) just because it pisses him off.:D

Sounds like the vice-principle is a bully to be honest. You don't have to bully loads of people to be a bully.

a person who uses strength or influence to harm or intimidate those who are weaker.

In this case its the promise of the hours being there next year is his influence. Perhaps he feels jealous of the younger teacher showing initiative and resents the fact that he has lost enthusiasm for the job

She should call him aside and make it perfectly clear that his behaviour is unacceptable. The best way to deal with a bully is head-on. As JuneG says above develop a thick skin this does not mean be walked over.

Failing that it should be escalated to the Principal, failing that the INTO. When it comes to bullying cases its not the actions that are considered but the effects of the actions on the affected party.

The question I would have is why would you even consider working in a place where you are being bullied?

katydid

TonyStark wrote: »

The question I would have is why would you even consider working in a place where you are being bullied?

Money to pay the bills...

I presume when she got the job she didn't know she was going to be bullied.

The union route is the best route, that way she won't be alone in taking this on. If talking to the person honestly doesn't work.

katydid

juneg wrote: »

I would just advise any young teacher to develop a thicker skin.
She'll meet a lot more ignorant staff, kids, parents throughout her teaching career and she'll want to have learned the knack of not letting them get to her. And they are not always the older ones either!!

I'm a great believer in "little acts of rebellion", which in a small way gives you back a sense of control and feeling like you are standing up to them....
Instead of being upset by the vice, I would continue to do the thing that pisses him off (sporadically) just because it pisses him off.:D

That's all very well if you're permanent.

seavill

I personally don't see why teachers won't enforce the school rules. When some teachers choose to ignore rules it makes everyones life more difficult, particularly NQTs or people new to the school "sure look in next door, Mr. X lets everyone keep their coats on". If all teachers just stuck together everyone would have an easier life, it's not always managements fault for trying to enforce the rules. If teachers won't do as their boss tells them they deserve to get told off for it. Now admittedly the VP bursting into the class undermining the class teacher is not the way to go about it. A little word might make all the difference, but as someone said maybe the VP thinks they are doing the right thing instead of looking like they are "giving out" to the new teacher.
I would suggest that had I been this NQT and the VP came in one day and made that point I wouldn't have let it happen again, and by that I mean there wouldn't be anyone in my room with a jacket on ever again.

Obviously there are cases where schools being refurbished or freezing cold prefabs where jackets are necessary but in those cases there would be a whole school discussion on the matter and everyone would be on the same page, which clearly isn't the case in this instance.

If it is a case that the teacher is struggling to get them to take off their jackets, and does not want to lose teaching time dealing with it, use the school discipline policy or ask the VP to pop by and be in the corridor as the kids are coming to this class.
Imagine how many teachers these kids have walked past with jackets on and no one said anything to them. Hence putting the poor NQT into the difficult position they are currently in.

Management get a bad rap around here sometimes but in instances like this if everyone did their job properly then there wouldnt be an issue to be discussing in my opinion

Pinkycharm

Had a discussion with her again today about it- still visibly upset but turns out they HAVE been doing this to the other NQTs but none have come forward about it. Same practice, walking into classes unannounced and more or less as someone put it already, putting the teacher in their place.

Today he burst in on a room with group stations- asked why the students were moving around and chatting so freely. asked the teacher what work was being done and then rushed back out of the room. Teacher was told it wasn't normal practice in the school to do group work. I love doing it with mine and the kids learn better in some cases when we are doing it.

When I started here, he was grand- I think some switch might have been turned off in his head or something. Three of them swore today they weren't coming back even if promised hours. It won't look great for us if it continues though because obviously those girls will tell other subs or their friends and what not. It's like one rule for us and another for them. I think they are going to go to the principal about it. Two of the other teachers today were shocked to hear what he had done but said they werent surprised either that he has been prowling around. Kind of feel I have to watch my back now.

Its not about the jackets- students in the prefabs and cold classrooms where heating doesnt work are free to wear them. Its about bursting into rooms and dictating to students.

seavill

But at the start in your op it was about jackets and that's what the responses were based on.
Today's incident is completely different.

The nqts need their Union rep and senior teachers fighting for them on this one not them against the vp or p

spurious

Having worked under a bully, it is unlikely this teacher is the only one getting the treatment. Once someone brings it out in public the other incidents with other people start to be uncovered. With expert bullies, it's small things every day, rather than one or two dramatic and obvious events. It is disgusting to work alongside such a bully, I can only imagine how horrible it must be to be the target.

TheDriver

Sounds like a lot more to this story and I am curious about words such as "burst" into rooms like its an episode of CSI. Sounds somewhat odd all the same in the manner in which it is being done but I wouldn't call it bullying but more management with attitude that isn't welcome.
Maybe a chat to the Principal from a group of permanent teachers? There could be other factors involved here such as high levels of noise from that room, parents ringing in about the teacher, students being left out of class early (remember its a teacher's responsibility to look after their students until the bell goes). Or he could just be a pr**k.
I think its easy to come on here and call people bullys without the full story. Could we see a thread about the dreadful NQT who won't take any help next week, again without knowing the context of the school and people involved.

evolving_doors

I wonder did he start asserting himself when that other teacher outright revolted and went with the 'call me by my first name' solo run.
Seems as if there's a good few new staff that they want to ' train'.

I'd be interested to know if he's 'promised' a lot of the NQT's hours next year.