Quotes for cavity wall insulation

scotchie78

Hey All

I'm in the middle of getting quotes for cavity wall insulation at the minute.

I'm getting quotes from multiple local companies and I'm seeing a large variations in quotes and all the written quotes are very sparse on detail.

I need to question the quotes and looking for some good question to ask to try and see where the variation is coming from. Anybody got any experience of this or any good questions.

Thanks

MicktheMan

Ask what product is proposed to be used. Ask for a copy of the iab cert for the product and read it thoroughly. Then discuss the job with them asking about the cavity (bore scope) inspection report, whether there is already insulation in the cavity and why their product is suitable for your house.
Ask them can they guarantee that you will notice a difference when the job is complete. If the answer is "no", ask why. If the answer is "yes" also ask why.

Now questions to ask you:
Why are you thinking of cavity wall insulation?
Do you know that in a lot of cases, there is no perceivable difference noticed by the occupants between before and after the works are completed?

Calahonda52

OP: MTM is on the money with the why question.By and large its a discredited process which is impossible to verify both in terms of quality and quantity of fill

scotchie78

Thanks for the info on questions to ask the contractors. I've had two different contractor drill inspection holes on different walls and used boroscope camera to view the cavity. There is at least a 50mm void in the cavity wall to pump into.

I have to disagree with the downplaying the value of pumping the walls. I have at least three house beside me of the same design who all have had their wall pumped and noticed the difference and also my parents house as well. I remember the first night I stayed in my parents after getting the walls pumped, I got up the following morning and had to checked if the heating had been left on all night the house was so warm with the walls pumped.

JonathonS

Calahonda52 wrote: »

OP: MTM is on the money with the why question.By and large its a discredited process which is impossible to verify both in terms of quality and quantity of fill

Get an engineer who offers thermal imaging services to do a before-fill and after-fill survey, to include hard copy prints of all shots taken. The tests should be done after the heating has been on for at least 2 hours. If you require a BER cert then ideally your engineer should be able to do that too.

Tell the cavity fill contractor that he will be paid once the second set of tests show that the cavities have been fully filled, and he will have to re-visit to fill any remaining empty areas identified by the test.

It is important that a camera of sufficiently high infra-red resolution is used, so that cold spots can be clearly narrowed down to a specific area of the wall. You have to allow for the fact that steel ties will cause thermal bridging spots, what you are trying to identify is any large areas that were not filled.
It can take a few days for the effect of the cavity fill to be fully felt.

scotchie78

JonathonS wrote: »

Get an engineer who offers thermal imaging services to do a before-fill and after-fill survey, to include hard copy prints of all shots taken. The tests should be done after the heating has been on for at least 2 hours. If you require a BER cert then ideally your engineer should be able to do that too.

Tell the cavity fill contractor that he will be paid once the second set of tests show that the cavities have been fully filled, and he will have to re-visit to fill any remaining empty areas identified by the test.

It is important that a camera of sufficiently high infra-red resolution is used, so that cold spots can be clearly narrowed down to a specific area of the wall. You have to allow for the fact that steel ties will cause thermal bridging spots, what you are trying to identify is any large areas that were not filled.
It can take a few days for the effect of the cavity fill to be fully felt.

Thanks Jonathan for the advice. I had heard of thermal imaging to verify the cavity fill and had googled hiring a thermal imaging camera and researching and developing a procedure as I am a mech. engineer.
I'm still waiting on some quotes before I get in detail discussion on the quotes and payment terms
Any idea of ball park figures to hiring a engineer to save me the R&D??

sydthebeat

Calahonda52 wrote: »

OP: MTM is on the money with the why question.By and large its a discredited process which is impossible to verify both in terms of quality and quantity of fill

thats a very strong statement??

any facts to back this up?

Both cavity board and pumped beads have pros and cons in their installation, but nothing close to considering them a "discredited process"

the quality and quanity of fill can be easily verified by some strategically placed perspex

MicktheMan

Calahonda52 wrote: »

OP: MTM is on the money with the why question.By and large its a discredited process which is impossible to verify both in terms of quality and quantity of fill

This is not the point I am making.

The point I was getting at is that in a fair number of cases, conduction heat loss through the external walls is not the main heat loss mechanism and therefore, having the walls pumped has little effect, whether properly done or not. The cases I have in mind is where the heat loss is primarily caused by excessive air leakage and not conduction.

JonathonS

scotchie78 wrote: »

Any idea of ball park figures to hiring a engineer to save me the R&D??

My sister got it done, but she needed a BER cert as well. All in it was 250. The guy had a good camera. I looked at hiring them, but there was only a few places, they wanted 100 a day. There is a lot of info on the Flir site if you want to study further.

Calahonda52

The issue I have with this process is two fold:
1: there is no certification process to show that the material your are paying for is the actual material that is being used and is applied at the right density.

Its is similar to the open cell vs closed cell issue with spray foam, where open cell is about 25% the density of closed cell.

2: the before and after thermal camera idea is fine in principle but I have never seen anywhere where the before and after was brought back to prior and post U values.
Anyone charging a 100 a day for this work is using kit that you might get in a christmas cracker.
Thats 12 euro an hour, the min wage I believe is 9

MTM, didn't mean to mis-represent your input. Apologies if I did.

Ditto if I inadvertently pulled anyone else's chain with my earlier contribution.

JonathonS

Material from Envirobead, Warmfill and Thermobead is used by most (all?) installers, and is certified by the NSAI. Installers are NSAI approved and subject to inspection, and must use NSAI Agrément certified product. You could ask to see supplier invoices, buts its probably easier for installers to source certified product anyway.

In your excitement to reply you did not take the time to read my post correctly, the 100 a day figure is to rent a camera.

scotchie78

Calahonda52 wrote: »

The issue I have with this process is two fold:
1: there is no certification process to show that the material your are paying for is the actual material that is being used and is applied at the right density.

Its is similar to the open cell vs closed cell issue with spray foam, where open cell is about 25% the density of closed cell.

2: the before and after thermal camera idea is fine in principle but I have never seen anywhere where the before and after was brought back to prior and post U values.
Anyone charging a 100 a day for this work is using kit that you might get in a christmas cracker.
Thats 12 euro an hour, the min wage I believe is 9

MTM, didn't mean to mis-represent your input. Apologies if I did.

Ditto if I inadvertently pulled anyone else's chain with my earlier contribution.

I would agree with JonathanS NSAI regulation comments and the fact I have spoke to several neighbors who have vouched for the same installers level of workmanship

I have prices for rental the thermal imaging camera this week is 100euros/day or 300euros/week

Thermal imaging survey and report by an engineer starting at 350euros plus travel expense up to 600 euros(still waiting on more engineer quotes) depending on how much detail you required as part of the survery: external & internal imaging/air tightness testing/analysis of heating system etc..
To me isn't not worth the effort of R&D and developing a procedure and renting the camera, money better spent employing a experienced engineer to discuss and analysis the problems and solutions...

shivBo

Hi,
I am new to posting here so don't know if this is the right place but just looking for anyone's experience as I haven't found anything looking through posts (I usually get loads of info here just reading!) We are building a new build in Galway at the moment, after looking at all the options and spending a long time deliberating we decided to use a company in Roscommon who highly recommended wall tite a purple foam that is pumped into the cavities. This was a very expensive option thousands more than the other option we were going with originally but we were guaranteed it was the best option nothing else to match it was promised the 'Rolls Royce' of insulation etc so we decided it was worth the extra cost. So we went with them the house was pumped and a few weeks later we noticed cracks appearing all over the walls outside and inside. Some of the cracks are huge and have moved up to 2mm (outside) and others are smaller more hair line cracks. We are absolutely devastated. We have people calling to the house taking pictures, my husband has received so many calls from people saying they have heard and offering advice- take down all the outside walls, do this do that but nobody knew would the cracks re appear continue to get bigger. Anyway long story short this has caused indescribable stress so we engaged a structural engineer who gave us a report on exactly how it can be fixed with a 100% guarantee of no other problems - hugely expensive to remedy but fixable.
My question is has any one else got any experience of this insulation and their walls cracking? We were never ever informed this was a risk in fact we were told that is why is was so expensive it was so labour intensive etc. Would really appreciate hearing other people's experiences, thanks in advance!

shivBo

Hi,
I am new to posting here so don't know if this is the right place but just looking for anyone's experience as I haven't found anything looking through posts (I usually get loads of info here just reading!) We are building a new build in Galway at the moment, after looking at all the options and spending a long time deliberating we decided to use a company in Roscommon who highly recommended wall tite a purple foam that is pumped into the cavities. This was a very expensive option thousands more than the other option we were going with originally but we were guaranteed it was the best option nothing else to match it was promised the 'Rolls Royce' of insulation etc so we decided it was worth the extra cost. So we went with them the house was pumped and a few weeks later we noticed cracks appearing all over the walls outside and inside. Some of the cracks are huge and have moved up to 2mm (outside) and others are smaller more hair line cracks. We are absolutely devastated. We have people calling to the house taking pictures, my husband has received so many calls from people saying they have heard and offering advice- take down all the outside walls, do this do that but nobody knew would the cracks re appear continue to get bigger. Anyway long story short this has caused indescribable stress so we engaged a structural engineer who gave us a report on exactly how it can be fixed with a 100% guarantee of no other problems - hugely expensive to remedy but fixable.
My question is has any one else got any experience of this insulation and their walls cracking? We were never ever informed this was a risk in fact we were told that is why is was so expensive it was so labour intensive etc. Would really appreciate hearing other people's experiences, thanks in advance!
shivBo is online now Report Post

hexosan

What's the recommendation the engineer made to remedy the problem

patschat

shivbo can you give me your number this happened us also very expensive foam pumped too fast, looking since 2011 but never found anyone else it happened to, il get my husband to ring ye needless to say we have all the research done etc etc but we still going through litigation with this so cant say to much on this.my heart goes out to ye i know how ye feel when we saw the cracks we nearly died.

rugmtb

Many thanks for raising this issue with full fill cavity polyurethane foam insulation.

From my experience this product will grip your walls and window reveals then over time shrink pulling them together, cracking the walls and warping the window frames.

It seems unsuitable and you would have to question the BBA certification process.

JonathonS

shivBo wrote: »

Hi,
I am new to posting here.... we decided to use.... wall tite a purple foam that is pumped into the cavities. This was a very expensive option thousands more than the other option ...a few weeks later we noticed cracks appearing

patschat wrote: »

this happened us also very expensive foam pumped too fast...we still going through litigation

rugmtb wrote: »

Many thanks for raising this issue with full fill cavity polyurethane foam insulation.

From my experience this product will grip your walls and window reveals then over time shrink pulling them together, cracking the walls and warping the window frames.

It seems unsuitable and you would have to question the BBA certification process.

Maybe it is my conspiracy-theory and ultra-suspicious nature but you have to wonder about three novice posters suddenly appearing on the scene, seriously knocking a product, and in the case of the first two disappearing just as quickly. I have found no other reports of these problem. Very strange.

(And before anyone questions my motives, I am planning a house renovation, cavity-fill is being considered, it may be beads or foam, no decision yet.)

shivBo

Best of luck at least you have been warned and informed I wish we had been there was no information of any risk of this happening and putting us in an absolute nightmare scenario. I would be interested to know why you would think anyone would be bothered to join this forum and state this about a product if it hasn't happened to their homes what exactly would be their gain? I would be more than happy to send you photos of the state of my internal and external walls with cracking that is getting bigger all the time and leaving us unable to move into our new homes and leaving us in limbo. I think you will find all the affected home owners who have gone on here out of desperation for information and to give information to other innocent consumers have only done so because there is so little information out there this is the only place there has been any mention of the damage this product can do to a house. We have not disappeared but have chosen to discuss in PMs and in person. Again best of luck with this product from what I have learned in the last six months you will need it. As we have learned in the last few months the engineer has come back and because the cracks are still moving getting bigger and appearing in new places there is no remedy the house will have to be knocked, other houses that have been repaired have had the cracks reappear two weeks later. We have been privately contacted by numerous home owners with identical problems so in time I am sure you won't be in any ignorance about the risks involved in this product regardless how good the sales person selling it is.

JonathonS

shivBo wrote: »

I would be more than happy to send you photos of the state of my internal and external walls with cracking that is getting bigger all the time

I am seriously considering Walltite, photos would be appreciated.

shivBo wrote: »

the engineer has come back and because the cracks are still moving getting bigger and appearing in new places there is no remedy the house will have to be knocked

Please PM me contact details for your engineer. If we decide to go ahead it would be useful to have someone on board to advise.

marieab

Any update on this product.....damage etc? I am considering this product on a new build.

JonathonS

marieab wrote: »

Any update on this product.....damage etc? I am considering this product on a new build.

Not unsurprisingly I did not get any PMs from ShivBo.

You should speak to your architect and structural engineer and ask them to advise on Walltite. I have told my architect I want to use it, subject to him and the SE giving it the thumbs up.

pmcdaidie

Have you decided to go with wall tite? Did your engineer approve?

JonathonS

pmcdaidie wrote: »

Have you decided to go with wall tite? Did your engineer approve?

Its parked for the moment until the rest of the job is complete, so it will be later this year before its installed. Architect and SE are fine with using it. Its expensive but for me the airtightness properties are a big plus.

Kev1303

JonathonS,

Did you end up using the Walltite? I have just started a self build and its a product I am considering.

JonathonS

Kev1303 wrote: »

Did you end up using the Walltite? I have just started a self build and its a product I am considering.

It won't be in until the back end of the year. I did some more checking and it will be a key part of the plan to achieve the best possible air tightness result as well as insulating the walls.

shivBo

JonathonS wrote: »

Not unsurprisingly I did not get any PMs from ShivBo.

You should speak to your architect and structural engineer and ask them to advise on Walltite. I have told my architect I want to use it, subject to him and the SE giving it the thumbs up.

Hi Jonathon,
Our engineer did not want his information shared once the litigation process is over I will send you detailed photos and you can see there is absolutely no reason in the world for me to make up that my house is all cracked I am not pushing another product I am simply looking for other people this has happened to which I have found plenty of. The insulation as an insulation product is without doubt probably the best on the market but the risks which are well known by qualified installers are never mentioned to home owners which is wrong as the risk is high, of course someone selling you the product is not going to go into detail they want your business. I am not going to reply to you again but to say best of luck and I hope you are one of the lucky ones and aren't in our nightmare. Again once the legal litigation is over I will send you my photos or you can come and watch my house being demolished-there is no way of removing this product other than taking down the walls. Hope this helps your conspiracy theory imagination -most people on here only go to the trouble of registering when they want information they hardly pick a random thread for the craic and make up wild claims about a product....as I said to you before be grateful for the information at least you are now informed what the risks are I wish we had that opportunity when we were researching.

insular1

Hi jonathons, any update on this? Also looking at a new build next year and seriously considering walltite.

Calahonda52

insular1 wrote: »

Hi jonathons, any update on this? Also looking at a new build next year and seriously considering walltite.

What professional design process brought to this point and this product, given that there are so many other proven solutions out there?

What's the Energy demand load for the build and what U values are you chasing?

What air tightness number are you chasing?

insular1

Sorry, wasn't the strongest first post I know. Without going into too much detail long time lurker first time poster. Expect to receive planning permission in the next week for 2500sq ft detached so have started researching.
Basically I was looking at pros and cons of various insulation methods and remembered a guy I met at a self build expo earlier in the year had suggested a combination of kingspan and walltite to get a good compromise (walltite filling out any gaps in insulation due to sub par installation and increasing air tightness around windows etc) so googled that method and found a thread on boards where a poster was suggesting the exact same thing. More searching led to finding positive reviews of walltite but also really worrying issues with wall cracking.
This was the most recent thread where someone was going to use it to fill a cavity and so wanted to see if they had any issues. Don't want to hijack the thread or anything, I can start a new one if it's needed as I will probably have loads of questions over the next year!