Dog in an apartment

Arbiter of Good Taste

MrWalsh wrote: »

I live in an apartment block and lots of people have dogs. And cats.

As far as I can tell the management company of which I am a member as an owner have no real teeth. They won't do anything about serious problems because court dates cost money. So they're highly unlikely to get excited about a pet.

Well, in my old apartment block, we did have teeth. People who asked to move pets in were refused.

The "management" is the owners, and they will enforce the rules if pushed.

MrWalsh

Arbiter of Good Taste wrote: »

Well, in my old apartment block, we did have teeth. People who asked to move pets in were refused.

The "management" is the owners, and they will enforce the rules if pushed.

No one asks in mine. I know the management are the owners, I am one. I don't see any rule enforcing going on, even for serious matters.

I'm simply relaying my own experience.

Paulw

MrWalsh wrote: »

No one asks in mine. I know the management are the owners, I am one. I don't see any rule enforcing going on, even for serious matters.

Then you are also part of the problem for not insisting that the rules are enforced.

In our development, we enforce the rules. We have had a number of dogs removed for being a problem.

But, in this situation, it would really depend.

The OP needs to speak to the management company. That's usually called "XYZ Development Management Company Ltd" and can be found through the CRO. You can also find their contact details there. I am very surprised and concerned that your solicitor can't find the management company, since the solicitor would need a number of documents from them to complete the purchase of the unit.

Keep chasing.

MrWalsh

Paulw wrote: »

Then you are also part of the problem for not insisting that the rules are enforced.

In our development, we enforce the rules. We have had a number of dogs removed for being a problem.

But, in this situation, it would really depend.

The OP needs to speak to the management company. That's usually called "XYZ Development Management Company Ltd" and can be found through the CRO. You can also find their contact details there. I am very surprised and concerned that your solicitor can't find the management company, since the solicitor would need a number of documents from them to complete the purchase of the unit.

Keep chasing.

Could you detail for me here how you have enforced the rules and had dogs removed please?

I don't see how anyone can dictate what you keep inside your own apartment which you own. If renting then the LL can make rules but if you truly own it I cant see how anyone can even prentend to be able to enforce a rule like no pets.

Btw I would be a person against keeping pets in apartment but still feel if you own it you should be able to give the middle finger to rules like "no pets".

The_Morrigan

Jeremias Freezing Gear wrote: »

I don't see how anyone can dictate what you keep inside your own apartment which you own. If renting then the LL can make rules but if you truly own it I cant see how anyone can even prentend to be able to enforce a rule like no pets.

Btw I would be a person against keeping pets in apartment but still feel if you own it you should be able to give the middle finger to rules like "no pets".

You don't truly own an apartment, you lease it from the Man Co who set the rules.

MrWalsh

The_Morrigan wrote: »

You don't truly own an apartment, you lease it from the Man Co who set the rules.

While this is true, no one from said management company can legally enter your property to inspect that you are in keeping with the rules.

maglez81

Paulw wrote: »

Then you are also part of the problem for not insisting that the rules are enforced.

In our development, we enforce the rules. We have had a number of dogs removed for being a problem.

But, in this situation, it would really depend.

The OP needs to speak to the management company. That's usually called "XYZ Development Management Company Ltd" and can be found through the CRO. You can also find their contact details there. I am very surprised and concerned that your solicitor can't find the management company, since the solicitor would need a number of documents from them to complete the purchase of the unit.

Keep chasing.

How did you remove dogs?

The_Morrigan

MrWalsh wrote: »

While this is true, no one from said management company can legally enter your property to inspect that you are in keeping with the rules.

Yes they can;

With your permission and in the case of stopping an emergency like fire or flood or a gas leak spreading to other Apts for example and with an injunction from the courts.

Kinda the same as a landlord really.

That is neither here nor there though - no one should be entering into an agreement with the intention to breach it from the get go.

Paulw

maglez81 wrote: »

How did you remove dogs?

The dog owners were first sent letters from the management agent. Then solicitors letters, informing them that they were in breach of their lease contract and that if they continued we would take the matter to court. We never had to go as far as getting a court date, but we were prepared to.

It really depends how determined you are to enforce clauses in your contract. We have no fear of taking cases all the way, and so far we have only had to take two cases to court (for non-payment of management fees). Our development is fairly well run and only minor issues to deal with usually.

MrWalsh

Paulw wrote: »

The dog owners were first sent letters from the management agent. Then solicitors letters, informing them that they were in breach of their lease contract and that if they continued we would take the matter to court. We never had to go as far as getting a court date, but we were prepared to.

It really depends how determined you are to enforce clauses in your contract. We have no fear of taking cases all the way, and so far we have only had to take two cases to court (for non-payment of management fees). Our development is fairly well run and only minor issues to deal with usually.

Were these owners or renters? It's a pity none went to court, I'd be very interested to know how a court would have dealt with it.

maglez81

Paulw wrote: »

The dog owners were first sent letters from the management agent. Then solicitors letters, informing them that they were in breach of their lease contract and that if they continued we would take the matter to court. We never had to go as far as getting a court date, but we were prepared to.

It really depends how determined you are to enforce clauses in your contract. We have no fear of taking cases all the way, and so far we have only had to take two cases to court (for non-payment of management fees). Our development is fairly well run and only minor issues to deal with usually.

What do you mean lease contract? Is rental rental agreement? I'm buying

I have found a company mangment from cro.ie, but there isn't any email or phone number

The_Morrigan

maglez81 wrote: »

What do you mean lease contract? Is rental rental agreement? I'm buying

I have found a company mangment from cro.ie, but there isn't any email or phone number

You don't buy the freehold when you buy an apartment. You buy a long lease from the management company...ie you are technically renting from them.

chickenlicken2

maglez81 wrote: »

I have found a company mangment from cro.ie, but there isn't any email or phone number

There won't be email or phone number. It's a management company set up to look after the common areas. It's not a business running an office.

Buy the last set of financial statements or B10.

Send a registered letter to the directors listed on these documents.

athtrasna

OP there are two huge red flags for me in your posts. One being that you don't understand what buying an apartment entails and the second being that the lease you sign will commit you to complying with development rules and the rules in this particular development prohibit dogs. This is a legal document, one that you would immediately breach.

The bottom line to me seems to be that this is not the development for you. The directors making an exception to the rules is a recipe for disaster and would open the floodgates with every rule being up for exceptions.

selous

Im in an estate that is all own door apartments (duplexes) 50% are vacant and 30% are rented the rest are owner occupied, and there's loads of dogs and cats around, one guy (owner) in particular just opens the door out goes the dog does his business anywhere on the green, goes everywhere on it's own, most of the day, the guy even goes out in the car and leaves the dog loose, management agent has been informed, but, to no avail, yet his kids go out playing on the same green his dog sh!ts on, go figure,

Paulw

maglez81 wrote: »

What do you mean lease contract? Is rental rental agreement? I'm buying

I have found a company mangment from cro.ie, but there isn't any email or phone number

A Lease Contract is part of your purchase documents. You are "buying" a lease, usually 999 years, or similar. Technically it's a very long term rental agreement.

Paulw

MrWalsh wrote: »

Were these owners or renters?

All correspondance would go to the unit owner, as they are in breach of the contract. If they are landlords, then it would be up to them to deal with their tenant and the actions of their tenant.

campingcarist

selous wrote: »

Im in an estate that is all own door apartments (duplexes) 50% are vacant and 30% are rented the rest are owner occupied, and there's loads of dogs and cats around, one guy (owner) in particular just opens the door out goes the dog does his business anywhere on the green, goes everywhere on it's own, most of the day, the guy even goes out in the car and leaves the dog loose, management agent has been informed, but, to no avail, yet his kids go out playing on the same green his dog sh!ts on, go figure,

I dare say that if there is a no pets type of clause in the owner's agreement with the management company then properties in the estate are devalued.

On my estate, houses and blocks of apartments, dogs are not allowed in apartments but are in the houses. However, all dogs when outside of their property must be on a leash. This rule is strictly enforced by our managing agents who visit the estate on a daily basis and also review every morning all CCTV.

If any dogs are found "roaming" around the estate, it only needs a phone call to the local council's "dog catcher".

Currently there are two tenants who have been warned that they must get rid of their dogs or be evicted.

The_Morrigan

MrWalsh wrote: »

So were they owners or renters who had the dogs in the apartments?

MrWalsh, take it to pm please you're derailing the thread.
Thanks.

Victor

NewCorkLad wrote: »

No you are trying to find out if they can take your dog from you if you move in with the dog no matter the rules.

You have shown no consideration for you potential neighbours in this.

No need to be quite so unkind in your post.

Moderator

P. Breathnach

OP has told us that the dog is a therapy/services dog. That, to my way of thinking, is a different proposition from a pet. If the dog is required so that OP (or a member of OP's household) can cope with things, then there is a case for special treatment. We have become used to "No dogs allowed except for guide dogs" rules. Similar exceptions seem reasonable for other dogs trained for people's special needs.

OP, I share the view that you need to contact the management company. Your case is not simply that you want to be excused from a "no pets" rule, but that the dog is not a pet, and is trained for a specific support role; make the comparison to a guide dog. It should help that the intrusion on common areas would be minimised.

Paulw

P. Breathnach wrote: »

OP has told us that the dog is a therapy/services dog. That, to my way of thinking, is a different proposition from a pet. If the dog is required so that OP (or a member of OP's household) can cope with things, then there is a case for special treatment.

Yep, I totally agree. It makes it even more important for the OP to talk directly to the directors of the management company, rather than any agent, etc.

Also, this discussion should really have taken place before the purchase of the property was completed, rather than being a secondary issue.

Arbiter of Good Taste

P. Breathnach wrote: »

OP has told us that the dog is a therapy/services dog. That, to my way of thinking, is a different proposition from a pet. If the dog is required so that OP (or a member of OP's household) can cope with things, then there is a case for special treatment. We have become used to "No dogs allowed except for guide dogs" rules. Similar exceptions seem reasonable for other dogs trained for people's special needs.

OP, I share the view that you need to contact the management company. Your case is not simply that you want to be excused from a "no pets" rule, but that the dog is not a pet, and is trained for a specific support role; make the comparison to a guide dog. It should help that the intrusion on common areas would be minimised.

I see from the animals and pets forum that the dog happens to be A service dog. Not THE OP'S service dog. So effectively just a pet. So no case for special treatment apparently.

blacklilly

Also just to a clarify a point that another poster made earlier, the vast majority of Multi Unit Developments permit animals to be kept, providing that they are not or do not become a nuisance - This clause is far more common than a absolute no animal policy.

The_Conductor

blacklilly wrote: »

Also just a clarify a point that another poster made earlier, the vast majority of Multi Unit Developments permit animals to be kept, providing that they are not or do not become a nuisance - This clause is far more common than a absolute no animal policy.

It depends. The model lease in use by developers from about 1992- to when the building regs were changed (1999 and again in 2001)- had a clause specifically forbidding pets. We investigated it- and technically a little girl who had a goldfish- was in breach of the condition. Obviously sense prevailed.

You would have to go through the lease- line by line- and in addition- get a letter from the Management Company- specifically allowing the dog.

An exception for a single owner- even in a case where the dog is a necessity- would very likely have to be approved by vote at an AGM/EGM.

We also had an owner-occupier, who trained dogs for the blind- perfectly well behaved dogs- who was told in no uncertain terms to cease.

She moved and let out her townhouse to tenants who agreed to abide.

In a lot of cases- tenants (and owners) may have young children who have very limited common space in which to play. If animals (cats, dogs etc) also have access to the same common space- it is not simply that owners pick up any mess their pets may make- they would need to sanitise the area- little children and pet mess do not mix very well.........

As for noise- you'd be surprised at how many otherwise intelligent people- imagine its fine to confine a poor dog (or cat- or other creature) to an apartment on its own for hours on end. Its really not fair.

If you want to keep dogs (or other animals)- it is only fair that you keep them in accommodation that suits their needs- as well as yours.

maglez81

Thanks for your opinions.

1. When I started to progress with the mortgage, I didn't know this rule.
2. I haven't bought the apartment still, because I'm wanted to resolve this situation while my solicitor and the Management Company.
3. It's a small build, it's not an residential complex of closed type. Also, I'm going to live in the ground floor, so I'm not going to use the common space.
4. Currently I live an apartment where the rules not permit dog neither. However there are exception: pets must be supervised at all time and do not cause damage to common areas, with the exception that no pets are permitted if they cause annoyance or nuisance to fellow residents. I thought it's the same, because I live in the same area of the new apartment.
5. I'm waiting one month to have any update from the sales agent, my Solicitor and the Management Company, because of this I have asked about: What's the Worst That Could Happen? Could they remove my dog? is that legal?
6. My dog is therapy/services dog, so it's trained to be quite without any problem. He has always lived in an apartment. However his life is healthy, he walk every day 4 hours and every weekend we go for longs walks for Dublin Mountains, parks or beaches.
7. I am trying to have to have the maximum respect with my futures neighbors, because I'm taken the trouble to resolve it.

BeatNikDub

Hope this all works out for you and your doggy maglez81, and you guys find a wonderful home for the two of you where you are welcome.

athtrasna

maglez81 wrote: »

Thanks for your opinions.

1. When I started to progress with the mortgage, I didn't know this rule.
2. I haven't bought the apartment still, because I'm wanted to resolve this situation while my solicitor and the Management Company.
3. It's a small build, it's not an residential complex of closed type. Also, I'm going to live in the ground floor, so I'm not going to use the common space.
4. Currently I live an apartment where the rules not permit dog neither. However there are exception: pets must be supervised at all time and do not cause damage to common areas, with the exception that no pets are permitted if they cause annoyance or nuisance to fellow residents. I thought it's the same, because I live in the same area of the new apartment.
5. I'm waiting one month to have any update from the sales agent, my Solicitor and the Management Company, because of this I have asked about: What's the Worst That Could Happen? Could they remove my dog? is that legal?
6. My dog is therapy/services dog, so it's trained to be quite without any problem. He has always lived in an apartment. However his life is healthy, he walk every day 4 hours and every weekend we go for longs walks for Dublin Mountains, parks or beaches.
7. I am trying to have to have the maximum respect with my futures neighbors, because I'm taken the trouble to resolve it.

Do everyone a favour and find somewhere else. You're deliberately looking to circumvent the rules. You may think your reasons are valid but people who have bought in a pet free development have the right to live in one.

Mrs OBumble

The_Conductor wrote: »

It depends. The model lease in use by developers from about 1992- to when the building regs were changed (1999 and again in 2001)- had a clause specifically forbidding pets. We investigated it- and technically a little girl who had a goldfish- was in breach of the condition. Obviously sense prevailed.

You would have to go through the lease- line by line- and in addition- get a letter from the Management Company- specifically allowing the dog.

I wonder if anyone's ever taken a disability discrimination case based on this, and what the outcome was. Would a lease that did something illegal (discrimiantion on the basis of - a proxy for - disability) stand up in court? It would be particular interesting if there was an owner who lost their sight after purchasing.

And if all the lease did was prohibit pets, there's a question about does it really apply to working animals which are very specifically not pets.



(These are all side-lines to the OP's discussion, of course - in their case the advice is very simply "buy elswhere". But it is an interesting aspect that some LLs and MUD companies should perhaps think about a bit harder than they do.)