Dog in an apartment

Mrs OBumble

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

I wonder if anyone's ever taken a disability discrimination case based on this, and what the outcome was. Would a lease that did something illegal (discrimiantion on the basis of - a proxy for - disability) stand up in court? It would be particular interesting if there was an owner who lost their sight after purchasing.)

It would be very interesting to compare the reaction if this was a guide dog for a person with a visual impairment. I suspect it would be quite different.

Unfortunately, Ireland still has trouble with mental health or intellectual disabilities being taken as seriously as physical disabilities.

I've no doubt though this will change in the future. It will have to.

chopper6

OP do not buy there,take your money elsewhere.

You can see how uptight some people can be and you don't want to be bullied by a management company and other residents.

SteM

athtrasna wrote: »

Do everyone a favour and find somewhere else. You're deliberately looking to circumvent the rules. You may think your reasons are valid but people who have bought in a pet free development have the right to live in one.

How do you know how the people in the other 8 apartments feel about it? If she doesn’t have a valid reason that's for the management company to decide - not some rude randomer on the internet.

How is she looking to 'circumvent the rules'. She's was very upfront in her last post - she wasn't aware of the rule when she started the buying process - now she's aware of the rule she wants to see if a therapy dog is allowed. She's getting no help from anyone that she has contacted - not surprising in my opinion because most management companies are a sham in this country.

wally79

SteM wrote: »

How do you know how the people in the other 8 apartments feel about it? If she doesn’t have a valid reason that's for the management company to decide - not some rude randomer on the internet.

How is she looking to 'circumvent the rules'. She's was very upfront in her last post - she wasn't aware of the rule when she started the buying process - now she's aware of the rule she wants to see if a therapy dog is allowed. She's getting no help from anyone that she has contacted - not surprising in my opinion because most management companies are a sham in this country.

The OP has stated in another thread on the same subject that the dog is trained as a therapy/service dog but the OP does not in fact use the dog for this. It was a service dog at one time in it's life but is now just a pet

andreac wrote: »

Do you require to have this dog due to a medical condition?

maglez81 wrote: »

I don't, my dog has been volunteer as an assistant to the elderly and Disabled children. He is a certificate therapy/services dog.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057378893

MrWalsh

wally79 wrote: »

The OP has stated in another thread on the same subject that the dog is trained as a therapy/service dog but the OP does not in fact use the dog for this. It was a service dog at one time in it's life but is now just a pet

I disagree, he isnt just a pet. He works. He is a working dog and the OP is his handler.

What if the OP was a Garda and the dog was a drug sniffer dog - they can live with their handlers off duty also, but would not be considered a "pet".

P. Breathnach

MrWalsh wrote: »

...
What if the OP was a Garda and the dog was a drug sniffer dog - they can live with their handlers off duty also, but would not be considered a "pet".

In many developments, the residents would not like a drug-sniffer dog living amongst them.

foggy_lad

MrWalsh wrote: »

I disagree, he isnt just a pet. He works. He is a working dog and the OP is his handler.

What if the OP was a Garda and the dog was a drug sniffer dog - they can live with their handlers off duty also, but would not be considered a "pet".

Most leases don't mention pets but state that Animals must not be kept in the property or allowed to be kept or transported through the common areas etc

MrWalsh

P. Breathnach wrote: »

In many developments, the residents would not like a drug-sniffer dog living amongst them.

True, that was just an example used. I could have used any example of a working animal of which the OP is just the handler - the point is that the dog is more than just a pet.

Bob24

I think if the rule is there and clear, no one (including management company) can take the responsibility to decide on an exception without an explicit approval of every single other owner/occupier in the building.

What if they allow an exception and it turns out at a later stage that someone has very strong allergy to dogs and starts feeling unwell in the common areas (I am myself very allergic to cats and know how tricky these things can be). If that person purchased there with that specific rule in mind and have their health impacted - the OP would have to choose between moving out of the apartment they own, getting rid of the dog, or being the bad guy breaking the rules and affecting they neighbour's life.

wally79

MrWalsh wrote: »

I disagree, he isnt just a pet. He works. He is a working dog and the OP is his handler.

What if the OP was a Garda and the dog was a drug sniffer dog - they can live with their handlers off duty also, but would not be considered a "pet".

But he's not off duty. he's retired. the op has no need for him as a service dog. Therefore he is just a pet.

If a garda sniffer dog is no longer used as a garda sniffer dog then it is just a pet. A talented pet but just a pet

MrWalsh

wally79 wrote: »

But he's not off duty. he's retired. the op has no need for him as a service dog. Therefore he is just a pet.

If a garda sniffer dog is no longer used as a garda sniffer dog then it is just a pet. A talented pet but just a pet

I actually didnt read that as the dog being retired (of course I could be wrong). It was the present tense of "He is a certificate therapy/services dog" that made me think it was a current situation, not a past role.

BeatNikDub

chopper6 wrote: »

OP do not buy there,take your money elsewhere.

You can see how uptight some people can be and you don't want to be bullied by a management company and other residents.

This!

I have come across many therapy/guide dogs in my time and they are the softest, quietest most wonderful creatures. It is of the utmost importance you guys stick together so I would say just continue your search to where you are welcome.

(off topic sorry!) It reminds me of a story where I was at training in a previous place I worked where a colleague was partially sighted and had a guide dog, the wonderful Dash, who sat by her side all day. Anyway in this training day the tutor asked us all to throw a ball to the person we wanted to speak next. I will never forget the look on Dash's face - he want to fetch that ball so bad but sat there obedient and wonderful as ever!

Good luck OP

Arbiter of Good Taste

BeatNikDub wrote: »

This!

I have come across many therapy/guide dogs in my time and they are the softest, quietest most wonderful creatures.

It doesn't matter!!!!! This is not an issue over how great dogs are - for the record I have a dog and frankly she is nothing less than my little furry baby - but there are rules. These rules are agreed by the other owners of the apartments. If the OP brings the dog in, he is placing himself at a big risk of financial sanction from the other owners. The fact that it is a small development probably makes the risk higher because owner occupiers of smaller places are more likely to enforce the rules - and rightly so.

Nevertheless, even if a majority vote to change the rule (unlikely in my experience in a small development), there will likely be people who will not be happy. These will be the OP's close neighbours. He/she will have to live with them.

drumswan

BeatNikDub wrote: »

I have come across many therapy/guide dogs in my time and they are the softest, quietest most wonderful creatures.

Is there anyone more unreasonable than an 'animal lover' in an apartment block?

It doesnt matter if you like dogs, they have no place in blocks where there are against the rules.

BeatNikDub

My next door neighbour in the apartment block I live in have a dog that barks all the time. Doesn't bother me, I am just more of a live and let live person and know that a guide dog next door to me is just of no consequence to me or anyone. More important things to worry about in life!

fret_wimp2

BeatNikDub wrote: »

My next door neighbour in the apartment block I live in have a dog that barks all the time. Doesn't bother me, I am just more of a live and let live person and know that a guide dog next door to me is just of no consequence to me or anyone. More important things to worry about in life!

There's a whole lot of assumption and opinion going on here:

"Ive never come accross a bad tempered assistance dog"
"my neighbours are ok with my dog"
"i know lots of apartments with animals".

Thats all lovely, but this person is buying an apartment. They need to know hard facts on weather their dog is welcome there or not.

Im a massive dog person and would hate to be in a situation of having to chose between a family member (dog) or my house, because i didnt bother to look up the facts when i purchased.

drumswan

BeatNikDub wrote: »

My next door neighbour in the apartment block I live in have a dog that barks all the time. Doesn't bother me

My neighbour had a dog which barked all the time. Now they dont.

Arbiter of Good Taste

BeatNikDub wrote: »

My next door neighbour in the apartment block I live in have a dog that barks all the time. Doesn't bother me, I am just more of a live and let live person and know that a guide dog next door to me is just of no consequence to me or anyone. More important things to worry about in life!

Good for you, you are obviously a better person than the rest of us who just want to live a quiet life by the rules.

BeatNikDub

Thank you

MrWalsh

Id certainly be very interested to see how something like this would go in court, particularly in the current climate of people living in negative equity and perhaps being unable to sell a property despite wanting to. In the OPs case they are involving themselves in a sale process while not being made aware of the house rules regarding dogs initially and then finds themselves in difficulty contacting the management company. On top of this, the dog is a services/therapy dog - the OP says nothing about the dog being retired so I am going to assume its a current therapy/services dog and not "just" a pet. The OP wont use any common areas so unless there is a complaint of noise or disruption I dont see why anyone would be pushed to complain - beyond being either an interfering neighbour or a jobsworth type.

If a case like this did get chased as far as court I could see it making serious headlines if someone was ordered to get rid of the dog.

wally79

MrWalsh wrote: »

the OP says nothing about the dog being retired so I am going to assume its a current therapy/services dog and not "just" a pet.

On what do you base this assumption.

The OP has stated they don't have a medical condition requiring a service dog.
They have never said they are a handler or anything to that effect.
They have used the past tense when referring to their dog's experience
" my dog has been volunteer as an assistant to the elderly and Disabled children"

The more obvious assumption is that this dog is now a pet

witchgirl26

OP, you say you won't be using the common areas as it's a ground floor apartment but does it have it's own outside access that you would be using or would you still have to come in a single main door before going to your apartment. If it's the latter than it could still impact people who have an allergy etc.

I love dogs but if the rules in the block state none and it's not a therapy dog that you require for yourself then I think it's fairly clear cut. I'd say that if someone with a therapy dog that they needed for medical reasons (be it physical or mental) wanted to move in they might have a case but not if it's just one that is used for therapy to other people.

I get that you love your dog but an apartment block is a type of communal living so you have to take into account the other people there. It doesn't matter if the dog doesn't make noise etc but people have phobias and allergies and their rights to peaceful enjoyment of their property have to be considered too.

P. Breathnach

MrWalsh wrote: »

... In the OPs case they are involving themselves in a sale process while not being made aware of the house rules regarding dogs initially and then finds themselves in difficulty contacting the management company....

That sort of thing is a problem, not just for OP in this thread, but for anybody seeking to purchase in a MUD. It should be part of the process that the vendor's solicitor furnish a copy of the rules that are binding on owners/occupiers at an early stage in the transaction.

MrWalsh

P. Breathnach wrote: »

That sort of thing is a problem, not just for OP in this thread, but for anybody seeking to purchase in a MUD. It should be part of the process that the vendor's solicitor furnish a copy of the rules that are binding on owners/occupiers at an early stage in the transaction.

Absolutely agree. Is it possible the person trying to sell is trying to "conceal" (may be a strong word) certain aspects of the development by not furnishing the house rules? Or maybe its just a lazy solicitor (on either side?).

MrWalsh

wally79 wrote: »

On what do you base this assumption.

On this, from post #1 in this thread:

maglez81 wrote: »

I have a dog, it's a therapy/services dog

Unless the OP confirms otherwise the above appears to be present tense to me.

P. Breathnach

MrWalsh wrote: »

... Is it possible the person trying to sell is trying to "conceal" (may be a strong word) certain aspects of the development by not furnishing the house rules? Or maybe its just a lazy solicitor (on either side?).

In general, I don't think people are being deceptive. It's simply a lack of clear thinking.

If you view an apartment that is for sale, you may find "House Rules" posted in the common area. I'm sure that in many cases there are further rules that are not posted. I think a good OMC would have all the rules set out in a single document, supply copies to the managing agent, to any member who requests one, to potential purchasers (perhaps on payment of a modest fee), to new tenants (perhaps charging the landlord a modest fee), and to people who become members of the OMC by purchasing a property.

Miaireland

OP I am assuming that this is a service dog for you or a member or your family rather than a retired service dog that you have adopted. I am assuming that it is an active service dog.

I am not really sure what the regulations are for service dogs in pet free apartments but suggest you contact the Irish Guide Dog association who may be able to advise you.

Just bear in mind that may people buy into these apartment complex because they are pet free so it may be easier just to look elsewhere.

by the seaside

P. Breathnach wrote: »

OP has told us that the dog is a therapy/services dog. That, to my way of thinking, is a different proposition from a pet. If the dog is required so that OP (or a member of OP's household) can cope with things, then there is a case for special treatment. We have become used to "No dogs allowed except for guide dogs" rules. Similar exceptions seem reasonable for other dogs trained for people's special needs.

OP, I share the view that you need to contact the management company. Your case is not simply that you want to be excused from a "no pets" rule, but that the dog is not a pet, and is trained for a specific support role; make the comparison to a guide dog. It should help that the intrusion on common areas would be minimised.

Here in England, I am fairly sure that an Assistance Dog would not be classified as a pet and that to not allow the dog in the apartment would probably be illegal under the Equality Act, which replaced the Disability Discrimination Act.

Sorry that I don't know the equivalent arrangements in Ireland, but questions I would ask myself are:

Is the rule against pets or animals?
Is your dog registered in some way?
Are there any laws in Ireland to protect you?
What would the management company say re your dog?

athtrasna

by the seaside wrote: »

Here in England, I am fairly sure that an Assistance Dog would not be classified as a pet and that to not allow the dog in the apartment would probably be illegal under the Equality Act, which replaced the Disability Discrimination Act.

Sorry that I don't know the equivalent arrangements in Ireland, but questions I would ask myself are:

Is the rule against pets or animals?
Is your dog registered in some way?
Are there any laws in Ireland to protect you?
What would the management company say re your dog?

This is not an active service dog and management company rules say no dogs. All explained in the thread so far. A retired service dog is a pet, nothing more

MrWalsh

athtrasna wrote: »

This is not an active service dog and management company rules say no dogs. All explained in the thread so far. A retired service dog is a pet, nothing more

The Op doesnt say anything about the dog being retired OR about the management company rules saying no dogs, in fact, he is having trouble finding out the rules?

maglez81 wrote: »

I have a dog, it's a therapy/services dog, trained and he has always lived in apartments.

Also I don't have any reply from the Management Company when I have tried to know more information about the rules.

maglez81 wrote: »

I have tried to contact with the management or block management without successful. I could contact with the letting team, but they are not sure about the rules.