Folio maps and planning - are they current?

jane78

I'm wondering if the shape of the house as shown on the folio map is representative of what has planning permission? I'm buying a house with an extension to the front and the question has been raised about whether it has planning approval. Folio map seems to show the extension there... Just wondering if that has any significance at all. Thanks.

Gumbo

jane78 wrote: »

I'm wondering if the shape of the house as shown on the folio map is representative of what has planning permission? I'm buying a house with an extension to the front and the question has been raised about whether it has planning approval. Folio map seems to show the extension there... Just wondering if that has any significance at all. Thanks.

Folio maps ma have been prepared before planning was granted.
Usually a Folia map is read in conjunction with the Grant of Planning Permission from the Council along with any drawings prepared. Also there may be an architects opinion of compliance that could confirm any extensions carried out.

jane78

Thanks kceire. I guess I'm really looking at how I can speed up this sale. (2 months and still no contract). It's a tiny cottage in the country and I'm happy to take it without planning as I can address it all later. Do you know if obtaining planning permission is a requirement for the sale to go through? Or is it a "nice to have"?

Balmed Out

Without a certificate of compliance you may have to be a cash buyer.

jane78

Thanks, I am a cash buyer... Downsizing to a tiny cottage. So no bank involved...

Balmed Out

How long has it been built? For something that was built not according to planning regulations I think there's a seven year period commencing 5 years after the original planning was granted after all of which you cant get prosecuted / fined etc. For something small I don't think there's much risk of being prosecuted anyhow. It would still not be compliant but they wont do anything about it. Worth getting retention anyhow in case you do ever want to sell it.

Gumbo

jane78 wrote: »

Thanks kceire. I guess I'm really looking at how I can speed up this sale. (2 months and still no contract). It's a tiny cottage in the country and I'm happy to take it without planning as I can address it all later. Do you know if obtaining planning permission is a requirement for the sale to go through? Or is it a "nice to have"?

Maybe ask a local architect to take a look and offer his opinion on it?

Victor

jane78 wrote: »

I'm wondering if the shape of the house as shown on the folio map is representative of what has planning permission?

Assuming it is an Ordnance Survey map, it will only represent what exists (at the time the location was surveyed), not what has planning permission.

zagmund

I find the whole property mapping thing bizarre to be honest. It's a small map with a big marker line drawn around it to show your boundary. If the big marker line was to scale you would have a line a metre wide going down your boundary, so the line drawn can really only represent an approximation of where the boundary is.

In another case recently I had to get a map drawn for a first registration. This involved getting the map from someone (Land Registry I think), giving it to a surveyor, him going on site with the map, and then drawing his big marker line around the property on another map and filing that. Apparently this is my proof that I own the property because this is what will be registered.

I asked him what would happen if he happened to draw line half way through my neighbours living room - would that mean I owned it? Of course not. But then what does him drawing a line over a pre-existing line on a pre-existing map actually achieve? It all seems a bit makey-uppy. We already had drawings from the original deeds which seemed quite sufficient for the purpose.

If it ever came down to a humungous dispute with my neighbour could I go to court, point at the flawed drawing and tell the judge I wanted to take over his living room?

z

zagmund

I guess what I'm really wondering is how come none of the mapping is based on survey marks that can be reliably measured instead of being based on marker lines which can't be reliably measured on maps? If there was a survey mark at the boundary of every new property then you could at least have an accurate description of the property.

z

murphaph

I am still not exactly sure how things work in Ireland with boundaries (luckily I never had to find out). Here in Germany each federal state has a list of sworn surveyors who are quasi-public servants (actually closer to a notary public I suppose).

The site we recently bought was split off from a larger site and the surveyor came out and measured it all up and set boundary markers in the ground (usually at the corners). He then stamps the maps he draws and sends them to the land registry and they assign a new number (usually a sequence of new numbers if a site is broken up into multiple sites-that's how it was with us).

So we bought block 12345, sub block 4, location 123, which is then marked as such on the map. You can see the maps online and see the location of all the boundary markers (or at least where they should be). It is an offence to tamper with these markers and accidental damage (which can happen during construction for example) is supposed to be rectified (not cheaply) by the sworn surveyor. I suspect that more often than not the owners agree to place it themselves if it is obvious. A marker in the middle of a field might well be a different story and would probably need to be reset by a professional or someone would stand to lose out.

As we are going to build a house we now need a detailed map of the site and all surrounding buildings including all heights etc. The same sworn surveyor (or a different one, they are all bound by law to charge more or less the same) will be out again to make this map, which is required as part of the planning application. It is much more detailed than the map you submit in Ireland, that much I know. You're also obliged here to get the same dude to mark the position of the foundations to make sure the house is built exactly where PP has been granted and he has to come back when it's built and measure it up and enter it into the map for the public record.

Archaeoliz

Jane78 - I've not been living in Ireland for long but planning maps are my bread and butter (I'm an archaeological illustrator and most of my work is producing maps for assessment of archaeological potential within the planning system). To find out if a site has planning permission, look on the local county council's website and most of them have a link to maps showing all planning applications. If the permission is old then you can request a copy of it from their archives, but the details should be on the maps.

With regards to the planning mapping zagmund - yes they will have purchased the map from the Ordnance Survey, but as these maps have been built up over time and are often updated from aerial imagery these days, it is due diligence of the surveyor to check that the distances on the map relate exactly to the distances on the ground, and look for any evidence that boundaries have been moved. Plus these days a handheld gps can cross check with the geo-referenced map that the boundaries are correct just by walking along it and logging points (generally for commercial ones you are looking at approx 0.02m accuracy). The OS maps are vector maps so an accurate measurement should be able to be made from the digital mapping. It is only the scale of the reproduction of the map that changes how big the line is on the ground, not the data behind it.

RORY O CONNOR

jane78 wrote: »

I'm wondering if the shape of the house as shown on the folio map is representative of what has planning permission? I'm buying a house with an extension to the front and the question has been raised about whether it has planning approval. Folio map seems to show the extension there... Just wondering if that has any significance at all. Thanks.

Look up planning search on your local councils website with the address-if planning was granted in the last 15 years or so there should be a ref to it. Land reg maps do not show the full outline of a house as they are typically 1/1000

pajoguy

zagmund wrote: »

I guess what I'm really wondering is how come none of the mapping is based on survey marks that can be reliably measured instead of being based on marker lines which can't be reliably measured on maps? If there was a survey mark at the boundary of every new property then you could at least have an accurate description of the property.

z

When folio maps are marked for land registry purposes with the thick red line it is normally stated that "the area within the inner edge of the thick red line contains xxx acres/ xxx hectares.
10000 sq metres in a hectare.
2.471 acres in a hectare I think.
Folios and land registry maps are not boundary based.... that is they are marked on Ordnance Survey produced maps that land registry have no control over accuracy.
Confusing I know.
There are often errors with boundarys within housing estates especially. A scheme map will have been drawn up for a new development prior to construction. During construction errors could occur is the setting out and its only copped when an eagle eyed engineer spots it when they are surveying for somebody to buy the property. Then you are into "deed of rectification" where agreement has to be reached with all landowners affected by the error in setting out!!! Thats a whole other story!

irishmover

zagmund wrote: »

I guess what I'm really wondering is how come none of the mapping is based on survey marks that can be reliably measured instead of being based on marker lines which can't be reliably measured on maps? If there was a survey mark at the boundary of every new property then you could at least have an accurate description of the property.

z

Hahahaha... Ah mate, seriously as fully qualified Surveyor from Ireland working in Australia's Cadastral system I feel embarrassed to be seeing the general public make posts like this.

Not because you're wrong, you're 100% right our system is so backwards is damaging the country from moving forward, but our system in Ireland is very complex to change to be similar to the best systems in the world (Singapore, Australia, Denmark, Germany).

If our government was smart during the Celtic tiger they would have spent the billions of euro needed to fix our titles system mess in Ireland and arguably, going by a couple of my old lecturers, the state the country has been in since 2008 may have been halved.

But in a nutshell, ireland is a very very old country in terms of land, it also had to survive a number of systems. Another reason to not be impressed by the history with the British as they're largely to blame for what we have today. We can't change this overnight and will require massive upheavel between the general public and surveying governing body to fix the problem.

One example. The boundaries are not definable currently. Anyone can contest boundaries, there is based on a study to be arpoox. 33% land disputes in Ireland. How do we define a boundary if the neighbours can't agree on it? This is the biggest drawback. We give authority to the surveyor to decide, based on both neighbours stories and registry of deeds/titles to define the boundary? Someone will lose and it don't be pleasant for anyone.

The entirety of ireland would need to be resurveyed, plans updated. Cadastral marks left for reference. This task is beyond comprehensible for surveyors, let alone the general public to understand. 10 years could pass since first commencing the project and it might be half way finished. No government would pass that as they want these things noe so they can show off and get their votes for next election.

I sincerely hope in my lifetime this will be resolved. With a few more years behind me in Australia I plan to go home and try aid with this change. Fingers crossed.

murphaph

I learned a word I already knew. Never heard of Cadastral before but I'm familiar with the Kataster which is the German system. It is very impressive how detailed it is (dealing with it all now as we're building this year).

I just had to tell the surveyor I need a planning map for plot x and away he went.