Another BMW Timing Chain Thread! (Need Your Help)

bazz26

Maybe there if the chain snaps off and hits them...:pac:

The way I see it is that the chain is at the back of the engine against a bulkhead because it was designed to last the lifetime of the engine and was never intended to be removed.

Mech1

My garage towed in a 116 with this today, later today we towed it back, not worth getting involved.

myshirt

Mech1 wrote: »

My garage towed in a 116 with this today, later today we towed it back, not worth getting involved.

Don't understand this? Why?

Mech1

myshirt wrote: »

Don't understand this? Why?

Small garage, we need constant throughput and happy customers, not any one car with a big problem, that the customer may or may not be able to pay for at the day of collection, and will never be a happy customer due to the price involved. It would just be blocking up our space and giving us a unhappy customer through no fault of our own.

gctest50

myshirt wrote: »

Don't understand this? Why?

you're just replacing parts that are damaged, not redo-ing the crap engineering

when the owner pays out a few thousand for the repair it may be hard for them to understand that

myshirt

I get you.

At the other end of that you have guys who will charge you for everything they want to trial and error. I'll try this and charge you. I'll try that and charge you. That type of thing.

I much prefer what Mech1 said; if a guy is not up for it, he just doesn't take on the work.

166man

bazz26 wrote: »

Maybe there if the chain snaps off and hits them...:pac:

The way I see it is that the chain is at the back of the engine against a bulkhead because it was designed to last the lifetime of the engine and was never intended to be removed.

MetzgerMeister wrote: »

People don't get eaten by the car and then have damage caused by their head hitting off the engine and the underneath of the bonnet :pac:

You could well be correct, I'm just going off what I was told at BMW. Having the chain at the rear of the car improves pedestrian safety in case of an accident

Now that could just be the usual BMW marketing bull, so I guess take it with a pinch of salt....!

trabpc

Had an E39 530d for 4 years loved it sold it 4 yrs ago I bought it from 70k miles to 160k miles and no issue's. A manual returning 44mpg. Best car I've owned. Never understood the *20d in such a large car but in fairness the *20d was nearly at my e39 530d power. But no better economy.
Does the 530d in the f10 suffer the same timing issues and I believe the 525d after 2011 is now a 520d with an extra turbo, is this true?

Thanks.

Bigcheeze

trabpc wrote: »

. Never understood the *20d in such a large car

I know a lot of people sneer at it but in fairness it's no slouch to drive and while the car is big it feels nimble (basing that on f10 as I haven't driven others). Probably helped by the great 8 speed auto. In Ireland it's faster than 90% of what's on the road. Yes it's unrefined at low speed but when moving it's a very nice place to be.

trabpc

The fact its the same bhp as the old 530d does it feel the same to drive? Has it the same oomph? Never driven the 520d... Maybe I should.. Oh no wait......

166man

trabpc wrote: »

The fact its the same bhp as the old 530d does it feel the same to drive? Has it the same oomph? Never driven the 520d... Maybe I should.. Oh no wait......

Don't get me wrong, I'd have the 520d over an equivalent Audi etc. I'd just buy one from a dealers with a 2 year warrwarranty!

The F10 520d is actually an excellent car to drive and surprisingly the manual gearbox would be my preferred choice in one, even though the 8 speed auto is quality.

Blazer

I had a 520D which I had remapped to the same as a 525D LCI.
Huge difference to the car..when a 525D LCI came up I took it for a test spin not expecting there to be much difference but it's on a completely difference plane.
Going from 2 to 3litre and from 4 to 6pot is a big big difference...power delivery on a much greater plane.
Plus I don't have to worry about the timing chain issue although there are reports of it on the M57 engine but it's extremely rare, also no swirl flaps either.
So my tax went from 750 to 1500 but at least I won't be expecting a 6 grand bill for timing chain.
I was always tempted to move to the F10 but not a chance with that N47 engine. The issues are still common up to Jul 2012 I think.

mickdw

This thread is highlighting one thing to me.
The problems dont appear to be fixed at all.
Going back years now and I remember various reports re the problem being fixed from such a date onwards.
I remember mid 09 being mentioned as a safe date for buying e60. Then there was 100 percent confidence that F10 was clear of this engine issue. Then it moved to 2011 F10 .... to be sure to be safe from it. Now its 2012.

Bigcheeze

mickdw wrote: »

This thread is highlighting one thing to me.
The problems dont appear to be fixed at all.
Going back years now and I remember various reports re the problem being fixed from such a date onwards.
I remember mid 09 being mentioned as a safe date for buying e60. Then there was 100 percent confidence that F10 was clear of this engine issue. Then it moved to 2011 F10 .... to be sure to be safe from it. Now its 2012.

I don't recall anyone on boards with First hand experience of an f10 failure.

PaulKK

I also have not seen a failure reported after the march 2011 build date.. May still happen of course but far less common.

bazz26

Bigcheeze wrote: »

I don't recall anyone on boards with First hand experience of an f10 failure.

Here you go:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057317007

bazz26

trabpc wrote: »

Had an E39 530d for 4 years loved it sold it 4 yrs ago I bought it from 70k miles to 160k miles and no issue's. A manual returning 44mpg. Best car I've owned. Never understood the *20d in such a large car but in fairness the *20d was nearly at my e39 530d power. But no better economy.
Does the 530d in the f10 suffer the same timing issues and I believe the 525d after 2011 is now a 520d with an extra turbo, is this true?

Thanks.

Yes 525d from about mid 2012 is a twin turbo 4 cylinder engine. 530d and above are still 6 cylinder.

Bigcheeze wrote: »

I know a lot of people sneer at it but in fairness it's no slouch to drive and while the car is big it feels nimble (basing that on f10 as I haven't driven others). Probably helped by the great 8 speed auto. In Ireland it's faster than 90% of what's on the road. Yes it's unrefined at low speed but when moving it's a very nice place to be.

I have an F10 520d and compared to my previous Passat CC it is definitely slower from take off. Obviously the CC is lighter and I had mine remapped (140bhp to 170bhp) but the F10 is a heavier car and the 8 speed auto is always looking for the highest gear for economy (their set up that way), once it gets going though it would catch up with the CC. The F10 remapped properly would free it up a fair bit in the lower gears.

Truckermal

mickdw wrote: »

This thread is highlighting one thing to me.
The problems dont appear to be fixed at all.
Going back years now and I remember various reports re the problem being fixed from such a date onwards.
I remember mid 09 being mentioned as a safe date for buying e60. Then there was 100 percent confidence that F10 was clear of this engine issue. Then it moved to 2011 F10 .... to be sure to be safe from it. Now its 2012.

It's definitely not sorted by 2012 as they are failing too what a pile of dung for 50 odd grand..

Leonard Hofstadter

The cars built after 01/03/2011 are supposed to have had the problem 'fixed', but they haven't. They certainly don't seem to suffer as much as the older cars, but it's not true to say it's been resolved.

It's not the timing chain that's at fault either, it's the bits connected to the timing chain that were not manufactured properly and cause the chain to stretch and eventually fail.

That's why replacing the chain doesn't fix the problem, it will come back eventually if you just replace the chain. At least it's nowhere near as expensive to fix as it used to be, on the four cylinder models a specialist can just 'rock' the engine forward far enough to whip out the chain and do it for €1500, as opposed to a brand new engine like BMW would have charged.

As for the four vs six cylinder argument, there is absolutely no comparison, it's not just about the power (sure the latest 520d is more powerful than the original 530d), it's the refinement and the way the power is delivered. I hate four pot diesels with every fibre of my being but I quite like and enjoy a six pot diesel, obviously I'd prefer a six pot petrol, but six pot diesels are smooth enough, they sound pretty good and they can offer the same fuel economy as a four pot petrol (maybe even a little better) but are a whole pile faster.

Bigcheeze

bazz26 wrote: »

Here you go:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057317007

Ok i can remember reading that now.

Bigcheeze

bazz26 wrote: »

Yes 525d from about mid 2012 is a twin turbo 4 cylinder engine. 530d and above are still 6 cylinder.



I have an F10 520d and compared to my previous Passat CC it is definitely slower from take off. Obviously the CC is lighter and I had mine remapped (140bhp to 170bhp) but the F10 is a heavier car and the 8 speed auto is always looking for the highest gear for economy (their set up that way), once it gets going though it would catch up with the CC. The F10 remapped properly would free it up a fair bit in the lower gears.

Well there's always the sports setting on the auto which makes the box a lot more responsive. I also have Variable Damper Control which tightens up the suspension and steering in sports mode, making it feel like a lighter car.

trabpc

Bazz, what's the mpg like on day to day running in the 520d?

Avns1s

trabpc wrote: »

Bazz, what's the mpg like on day to day running in the 520d?

Not meaning to steal Bazz's thunder, but mine is returning 51mpg on a mix of driving an driving style. It's an M-sport and I run it a fair bit in eco mode particularly on longer runs so that probably improves the mpg a bit.

myshirt

I was getting 47mpg off a tank which I was happy enough with

trabpc

Sound good for such a big car in Fairness. The F10 is the nicest of any current car by long shot. Can't say the same for what came after my E39 and before the F10. Mr Bangles design!!

unkel

2 oil services on a car hitting 80k km?

Cars should be oil serviced every 10k km or every year, whichever comes first.

I know your lack of service is probably what the BMW (the car itself or the manual) told you, but that's ridiculous in my book. If I'm to blame anyone here, I'd blame BMW. But any one of us interested in a great drivers car might be better off buying a 6 cylinder BMW. Petrol. Breathing normally.

For the record, I have owned four BMWs, all very old and all high miles and all petrol. Two were V8 and two were straight 6 and I've never had any major problems costing serious money (no, and no cooling issues on my E39 or E38 either)

166man

We would have been replacing many q timing chain in the F10 and the F30, it certainly was common on 2011/2012. There was a high miler 131 plate having its chain done too.

myshirt

Did I miss something? Who serviced their car only twice in 80k?

unkel

myshirt wrote: »

Did I miss something? Who serviced their car only twice in 80k?

Seriously?

You.

First service at nearly 30k km, second service at nearly 60k km. Insane oil service intervals. I'll haste to say it again though - I don't blame you, I blame whoever thought those kind of intervals were ok (BMW and most other manufacturers)

myshirt

I bought the car with those service intervals on it.

Personally, I serviced it every 10-12 miles.

unkel

Apologies, somehow I figured (wrongly obviously) that you owned the car from new

Can't say it enough though, those long life service intervals are wrong. I would love to see some statistics here, although I doubt they are available.


How many cars with the N47 engine developed the timing chain problem? As a percentage of all cars with that engine. After what time and what mileage and with what service history and with what gear box?

And more pertinently: how many cars with the N47 engine that had 10 km oil services developed the timing chain problem?

myshirt

Rightly or wrongly, I figured if the long service intervals were to have an impact, they'd impact within warranty. I do 18-22miles a year, so I'd rack them up.

I have gotten to 100k with the chain; the last 50k have seen proper service intervals. Maybe this is the first 50 catching up on me...

Seen another car at time was buying and it had just short of 120miles, full bmwsh, and 20k service intervals. Chain never done but did have pulleys and tensioners. RAC guy looked it over, pulleys definitely only work done. So I thought, I'm ok there... hindsight lads, hindsight...

Desolation Of Smug

Any mechanically minded person who has had the misfortune to have to replace some buried, inaccessible item on a recent era BMW will be very unsurprised at the woes this marque is producing. I drive an E39 520. And I'm still not a fan of their "designs".

unkel

Desolation Of Smug wrote: »

Any mechanically minded person who has had the misfortune to have to replace some buried, inaccessible item on a recent era BMW will be very unsurprised at the woes this marque is producing. I drive an E39 520. And I'm still not a fan of their "designs".

Mechanically minded persons like yourself tend to enjoy their well serviced great driving petrol 6 cylinder BMWs

Desolation Of Smug

unkel wrote: »

Mechanically minded persons like yourself tend to enjoy their well serviced great driving petrol 6 cylinder BMWs

The newer ones drive me insane tho. Change a rad. OMG, the rounds you have to go to.

unkel

Desolation Of Smug wrote: »

The newer ones drive me insane tho. Change a rad. OMG, the rounds you have to go to.

Saw a light icon flashing up on the dash today. Will check it out tomorrow. Looks like I might have to change a bulb!!!

First "issue" for me and my 12 year old E60 520i that I have owned for nearly 2 years now.

Car passed the NCT first go last month valid for 15 months too...

Voodoomelon

Desolation Of Smug wrote: »

Any mechanically minded person who has had the misfortune to have to replace some buried, inaccessible item on a recent era BMW will be very unsurprised at the woes this marque is producing. I drive an E39 520. And I'm still not a fan of their "designs".

I'm having two phenomenally well engineered €2.00 seals replaced on my N62 V8 next week which will cost over €1000 to get done, at an exceptionally cheap labour rate I might add; if it was BMW, it would be more like €5000-€7000.

First is a perishable coolant transfer tube pipe seal which can't take high temperatures and fails around the 80,000 mile mark, some way less.
BMWs solution, take the entire top end of the engine apart including front timing covers to get at the pipe and seal and replace. Well over 30 hours labour.

The actual solution: just take the intake manifold off and use an aftermarket collapsible cooling pipe to repair the leak.


The second issue, an oil leak, takes the biscuit. Behind the alternator bracket is a small opening in the side of the N62 block. An actual hole that would ordinarily feed oil cooler lines on other variants of the same block, used in different/older models (i'm not sure which) to an oil cooler. This design has since been revised and this hole is now redundant. But oil still flows behind this opening...

Instead of blocking up the hole on the revised oil cooler design models, BMW decided to save money and continue to use the same block, but put a sh1tty gasket around the hole and seal it against the alternator bracket! Once again, they use a gasket that is pure sh1te and goes rock solid as early as 50,000 miles. Mines loosing half a litre every few thousand K and there's another E65 in for repair with the same garage for the very same thing. Same thing goes for the valve stem seals, turn to concrete after frig all miles.

Unbelievable stuff.

Desolation Of Smug

Voodoomelon wrote: »

I'm having two phenomenally well engineered €2.00 seals replaced on my N62 V8 next week which will cost over €1000 to get done, at an exceptionally cheap labour rate I might add; if it was BMW, it would be more like €5000-€7000.

First is a perishable coolant transfer tube pipe seal which can't take high temperatures and fails around the 80,000 mile mark, some way less.
BMWs solution, take the entire top end of the engine apart including front timing covers to get at the pipe and seal and replace. Well over 30 hours labour.

The actual solution: just take the intake manifold off and use an aftermarket collapsible cooling pipe to repair the leak.


The second issue, an oil leak, takes the biscuit. Behind the alternator bracket is a small opening in the side of the N62 block. An actual hole that would ordinarily feed oil cooler lines on other variants of the same block, used in different/older models (i'm not sure which) to an oil cooler. This design has since been revised and this hole is now redundant. But oil still flows behind this opening...

Instead of blocking up the hole on the revised oil cooler design models, BMW decided to save money and continue to use the same block, but put a sh1tty gasket around the hole and seal it against the alternator bracket! Once again, they use a gasket that is pure sh1te and goes rock solid as early as 50,000 miles. Mines loosing half a litre every few thousand K and there's another E65 in for repair with the same garage for the very same thing. Same thing goes for the valve stem seals, turn to concrete after frig all miles.

Unbelievable stuff.

My son has a 1.8 4 pot, 2004 or whatever. The rad is leaking. He asked me to change it. "No bother" I said....hmmmm...yeah...no bother....OMG, dafuq were ye thinking BMW????

unkel

That's brutal, Voodoo. What's your advice to me? An E65 petrol is on my shortlist for my next car and you say don't go there unless the car has been sorted like yours?

Bigcheeze

myshirt wrote: »

I was getting 47mpg off a tank which I was happy enough with

Getting 40 in Dublin according to the computer. Mine is an SE with 18 inch wheels.

Voodoomelon

unkel wrote: »

That's brutal, Voodoo. What's your advice to me? An E65 petrol is on my shortlist for my next car and you say don't go there unless the car has been sorted like yours?

Well you've had experience with bigger, older cars in the past and I've no doubt you wouldn't mind spending money on one to keep it in good order unlike a lot of people. I knew of these potential issues before I bought, but didn't think they'd all hit me so soon and within 10k miles!

I'd advise to get a good independent on board if you don't wanna do the potential work yourself and maybe budget €3000 to get some R&R done on any of the v8 models. Even the V12 has the same coolant pipe problem.

Still fabulous cars and don't plan to change any time soon.

I'd be doing the above work myself but am up to my eyeballs at work at the moment, have had 3 days off since November.

Tea 1000

Paddy@CIRL wrote: »

E90s are fine provided they're M47 or six cylinders.

I'd limit it to M47 or 6 cylinder diesels. All petrols post September 07 are muck, be they 4 or 6 cylinder.

unkel

Voodoomelon wrote: »

I've no doubt you wouldn't mind spending money on one to keep it in good order unlike a lot of people.

I'm afraid not. I run all my cars on a shoestring. That said, I do religiously keep them serviced but I have no budget at all for (expensive) repairs.

Voodoomelon

Well the 730ds are supposed to be relatively problem free. I hear the DPF is mental money though, but I only heard the dealer price.

I'd maybe look back at another E38? The E65 with a V8 certainly can't be run a on shoestring.

Tea 1000

Voodoomelon wrote: »

Well the 730ds are supposed to be relatively problem free. I hear the DPF is mental money though, but I only heard the dealer price.

I'd maybe look back at another E38? The E65 with a V8 certainly can't be run a on shoestring.

Seems the 3 litre diesel engine in any of them is the one to go for these days.

gctest50

Voodoomelon wrote: »

........The E65 with a V8 certainly can't be run a on shoestring.

interesting when you look at other places :

[FONT=arial,helvetica,helv]For this complete service with all the parts and labour I paid € 354,00.[/FONT]

http://img.ie/image/km
http://img.ie/image/k5
http://img.ie/image/kD
http://img.ie/image/kF
http://img.ie/image/kX
http://img.ie/image/kh
http://img.ie/image/kl
http://img.ie/image/ko

http://www.bimmerboard.com/forums/posts/527361

Voodoomelon

^^ I've posted that very link many a time on here. That's for a ZF transmission service on an E38 740.

BIG difference between that and a coolant transfer tube failure or valve stem seal failure on an E65, compared to the mostly reliable M62 V8 that E38 had.

166man

Ah you want the V12 in the E38.....:D

9mpg around town....:cool:

gctest50

Voodoomelon wrote: »

....
BIG difference between that and a coolant transfer tube failure or valve stem seal failure on an E65,

seemed to be a bad era for rubber seals for them - the e65 autobox has a little seal in in above the valve chest - splits n causes mayhem

valve stems seals should be easy enough - pull the cams n do them cylinder by cylinder

bazz26

Interesting reading on the below thread especially the second page, BMW seem to be now covering the entire cost of replacing the chain on a case by case basis depending on service history.

http://www.bmw-driver.net/forum/showthread.php?t=104209