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The government wimped out again

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Comments

  • #102
    bpmurray
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,275 ✭✭✭bpmurray


    reprise wrote: »
    Funny that, I thought we were the better for not being spoon fed every facet of life, completely sterilised through the lens of political correctness or religion.
    Debate is fine, but a debate requires that there's something to debate. There is exactly zero doubt about evolution - no credible science opposes it. Any debate on evolution should be about whether the selfish gene approach is correct or some other mechanism, but certainly not whether it's true or false.

    We could debate gravity too - does it exist or not? Or maybe the debate should focus on weak forces or dark energy or what actually causes it?


  • #103
    Ghost Buster
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,172 ✭✭✭Ghost Buster


    The_Valeyard wrote: »
    This post here is the example and reason why these threads and debate never work on AH.

    How can you reason or debate an already closed mind. The open hostility and bigotry toward anyone with faith and the need to put them down is blatantly obvious. Just a cultural norm on certain parts of here.


    /thread.
    My mind is very very open except to supernatural things which one is simply expected to 'believe and have faith in' for absolutely no good reason.
    Admitting we dont yet have all the answers is open minded. Simply filling gaps with god is closed minded.


  • #104
    Ghost Buster
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,172 ✭✭✭Ghost Buster


    The_Valeyard wrote: »
    Didn't see your ninja edit...




    And I honestly do not see why my taxes should be diverted to fund the beliefs of a minority and vocal group such as.Atheist Irelands brand of education. Since Religion and Christianity makes up 90% of the population, shouldn't our views of education and tradition not also play a role. A pluralistic viewpoint would be more prudent to that of a secular system where religion or spirituality is effectively smothered out.

    Why don't atheist Ireland /vocal atheists fund their own schools instead of demanding Christians fund theirs? See makes no sense.

    I know I will get slated for this viewpoint in here as the A&A brigade with their banners and high horses will be along shortly, as boards.ie does high a high percentage of anti-theists and people who our openly hostile to any form or religion or spirituality in any shape or form, public or private life. So I will probably just /thread once that happens.
    If it were private there would be no issue.


  • #105
    liam24
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 369 ✭✭liam24


    reprise wrote: »
    Funny that, I thought we were the better for not being spoon fed every facet of life, completely sterilised through the lens of political correctness or religion.

    Let's debate whether the sky is blue or the earth is round in that case.


  • #106
    bpmurray
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,275 ✭✭✭bpmurray


    The_Valeyard wrote: »
    This post here is the example and reason why these threads and debate never work on AH.

    How can you reason or debate an already closed mind. The open hostility and bigotry toward anyone with faith and the need to put them down is blatantly obvious. Just a cultural norm on certain parts of here.


    /thread.
    This, unfortunately, is a common approach of the religious who don't understand that they're the ones putting people down: you're basically claiming that the majority is being oppressed by the minority. I have no problem with anyone's religion - I just don't want to participate in it. All I ask is the same courtesy - I promise I won't take your religion away from you as long as you don't force me to swear allegiance to it.

    The idea behind this post originally was do decry the inability of this government to execute on its constitutional obligations and to follow the damning report from the UN by simply making education available on a equal footing for everyone. Is that too much to ask for?


  • #107
    reprise
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,372 ✭✭✭reprise


    liam24 wrote: »
    Let's debate whether the sky is blue or the earth is round in that case.

    Why on earth wouldn't you debate those thing?


  • #108
    liam24
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 369 ✭✭liam24


    reprise wrote: »
    Why on earth wouldn't you debate those thing?

    Because I'd be somewhat miffed if my child failed his junior cert because the school was busy debating whether the sky is blue.


  • #109
    hoodwinked
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,175 ✭✭✭hoodwinked


    bpmurray wrote: »
    The idea behind this post originally was do decry the inability of this government to execute on its constitutional obligations and to follow the damning report from the UN by simply making education available on a equal footing for everyone. Is that too much to ask for?

    the problem with this is parents!

    parents who baptise their child to send them to a catholic ethos school, where they send their children to do prayers in the morning, prayers at lunch and prayers in the evening, but claim they aren't religious.

    by doing this they skew the results as these schools send the information back to the department that 50 children (with baptismal certs) were unable to get in due to high demand, hence the "multi denominational" schools are opened to cater for these excesses of "Religious" children.


  • #110
    Eutow
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,197 ✭✭✭Eutow


    liam24 wrote: »
    Because I'd be somewhat miffed if my child failed his junior cert because the school was busy debating whether the sky is blue.


    The sky is blue in Ireland only 5% of the year, the rest of the time it's grey.


  • #111
    micko38
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 94 ✭✭micko38


    Valid point Hoodwinked . Why have your kids babtised and then teach them to be athiest. Start as you mean to go on


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  • #112
    bpmurray
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,275 ✭✭✭bpmurray


    hoodwinked wrote: »
    the problem with this is parents!
    50 children (with baptismal certs) were unable to get in due to high demand, hence the "multi denominational" schools are opened to cater for these excesses of "Religious" children.
    And the other effect is that the over-subscribed Educate Together schools are filled with believers and the heathens then have nowhere to send their kids.


  • #113
    reprise
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,372 ✭✭✭reprise


    liam24 wrote: »
    Because I'd be somewhat miffed if my child failed his junior cert because the school was busy debating whether the sky is blue.

    Your child would be extremely poorly served by an education that could not advance a basic proposition and provide the tools to assess its validity. Had you absolutely no curiosity at all as a child?


  • #114
    Ghost Buster
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,172 ✭✭✭Ghost Buster


    micko38 wrote: »
    Valid point Hoodwinked . Why have your kids babtised and then teach them to be athiest. Start as you mean to go on

    I agree, thats what I did but I also checked that my local school, Catholic ethos of course, would not be exercising their right to exclude my kids or put them to the bottom of the pile for admission. They don't, But many can and do.


    oh, but I dont 'teach to be atheist' btw, I simply present facts wgen the issue arises.


  • #115
    hoodwinked
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,175 ✭✭✭hoodwinked


    bpmurray wrote: »
    And the other effect is that the over-subscribed Educate Together schools are filled with believers and the heathens then have nowhere to send their kids.

    well to be honest i believe if parents stopped being hypocrites and baptising their children the government would be looking at numbers of schools coming back to them with numbers more like for example:

    We have 100 places, 30 were given to baptised children leaving 70 vacant, we filled those with non baptised children and there were 50 non baptised children left we were unable to accommodate,


    with this scenario you are more likely to see non-denom schools opening up, as i too believe they are badly needed.

    so until parents start copping on and stop baptising children things just won't change as the majority of the children born are declared "catholic" and the government follow suit with religious schools.


  • #116
    liam24
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 369 ✭✭liam24


    reprise wrote: »
    Your child would be extremely poorly served by an education that could not advance a basic proposition and provide the tools to assess its validity. Had you absolutely no curiosity at all as a child?

    What are you even talking about?


  • #117
    reprise
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,372 ✭✭✭reprise


    liam24 wrote: »
    What are you even talking about?

    As I suspected. You would be definitely better off avoiding religion.


  • #118
    Icepick
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,456 ✭✭✭Icepick


    All public schools should be secular.

    It's time to take primary schools out of the hands of the RCC and remove religious nonsense from the constitution.


  • #119
    Eutow
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,197 ✭✭✭Eutow


    liam24 wrote: »
    What are you even talking about?


    I think Reprise means that rather than having somebody on one side stating the sky is blue and somebody on the other stating it is pink, the teacher will show why we see the sky as blue. It's only blue because of the way sunlight hits our atmosphere I think.


    Somebody with more knowledge of this will be able to confirm.


  • #120
    liam24
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 369 ✭✭liam24


    reprise wrote: »
    As I suspected. You would be definitely better off avoiding religion.

    The tools to assess its validity - asking a class of 12 year olds if the sky is blue. How might we assess its validity children? Should we go outside? Should we stay inside? Is the education system geared to the level of the retarded?


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  • #121
    liam24
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 369 ✭✭liam24


    Eutow wrote: »
    I think Reprise means that rather than having somebody on one side stating the sky is blue and somebody on the other stating it is pink, the teacher will show why we see the sky as blue. It's only blue because of the way sunlight hits our atmosphere I think.


    Somebody with more knowledge of this will be able to confirm.

    I'm not talking about why the sky is blue, I'm talking about the self-evident fact that it is blue. He's saying we should debate whether or not the sky is blue, or the earth is round. That's it's worthwhile having arguments like that with children.


  • #122
    bpmurray
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,275 ✭✭✭bpmurray


    liam24 wrote: »
    What are you even talking about?

    Please don't have kids.


  • #123
    reprise
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,372 ✭✭✭reprise


    liam24 wrote: »
    I'm not talking about why the sky is blue, I'm talking about the self-evident fact that it is blue. He's saying we should debate whether or not the sky is blue, or the earth is round. That's it's worthwhile having arguments like that with children.

    What Eutow said.


  • #124
    K4t
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,362 ✭✭✭K4t


    reprise wrote: »
    I appreciate your point, I send my children to rc to establish some sort of a moral compass. They are free to reject it when they are old enough and it in no way impedes their ability or my wish that they see the imperfections or the alternatives.
    This is priceless.

    Religion is not the belief there is a God. Religion is the belief that God tells you what to do. ~ CH


  • #125
    liam24
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 369 ✭✭liam24


    bpmurray wrote: »
    Please don't have kids.

    Likewise.


  • #126
    reprise
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,372 ✭✭✭reprise


    K4t wrote: »
    This is priceless.


    Religion is not the belief there is a God. Religion is the belief that God tells you what to do. ~ CH








    He told them to play minecraft after school?

    Even they don't try that on.


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  • #127
    wendell borton
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,336 ✭✭✭wendell borton


    I think the status quo should be maintained or else remove all religion from schools. Going down the route of denominational schools will lead to social fragmentation.


  • #128
    liam24
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 369 ✭✭liam24


    reprise wrote: »
    What Eutow said.

    Now Timmy, explain to the class why the sky is turquoise. And don't let anybody tell you you're wrong - your opinion is as valid as everybody else's.


  • #129
    AlanG
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,439 ✭✭✭AlanG


    The main problem with getting more non and milti denomination schools is that the parents of parents in religious schools don’t want their school changed. Most would like more choice in there are but not their particular school. In a lot of cases this is because the secular schools have a bad reputation and were seen as the rougher tech schools in many areas. Another reason is that the churches seem to be very good at building and running schools. Ireland may well be a far poorer country if it were not for the fact that the church had such a major role in our schools and health care. There is a perception among many that standards in our hospitals have declined as less and less religious people are involved. People want the church out of civil society (but just not in their local schools and hospitals).


  • #130
    Eutow
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,197 ✭✭✭Eutow


    liam24 wrote: »
    Now Timmy, explain to the class why the sky is turquoise. And don't let anybody tell you you're wrong - your opinion is as valid as everybody else's.


    Well, why is the sky blue? Children have an active imagination. If you just tell them the sky is blue and point it out on a sunny day, without going into why it is, that is not going to be very interesting is it?


    Going off topic though, so I will leave it at that.


  • #131
    reprise
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,372 ✭✭✭reprise


    liam24 wrote: »
    Now Timmy, explain to the class why the sky is turquoise. And don't let anybody tell you you're wrong - your opinion is as valid as everybody else's.

    That's not what Eutow or I said.


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  • #132
    reprise
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,372 ✭✭✭reprise


    Eutow wrote: »
    Well, why is the sky blue? Children have an active imagination. If you just tell them the sky is blue and point it out on a sunny day, without going into why it is, that is not going to be very interesting is it?


    Going off topic though, so I will leave it at that.

    liam24 doesn't do critical analysis. I blame the education system.

    /I'm out.


  • #133
    humanji
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,976 ✭✭✭✭humanji


    MOD: Folks, this is already a pointlessly aggressive thread with many people trying their best to be condescending to everyone else. Let's stop that now. If you don't like religion, fair enough. Keep it to yourself. If you think we all need religion, fair enough. Keep it to yourself. The topic is not about whether or not religion is a good thing. So try and stick to the topic and if you feel the need to take a swipe at someone, just walk away instead.


  • #134
    obsidianclock
    Closed Accounts Posts: 158 ✭✭obsidianclock


    liam24 wrote: »
    Let's debate whether the sky is blue or the earth is round in that case.

    If you don't let us teach kids the sky is yellow, I warn you, I'll plead oppression! :)

    I can feel the Flying Spaghetti Monster's presence as we speak... :-D


  • #135
    liam24
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 369 ✭✭liam24


    humanji wrote: »
    MOD: Folks, this is already a pointlessly aggressive thread with many people trying their best to be condescending to everyone else. Let's stop that now. If you don't like religion, fair enough. Keep it to yourself. If you think we all need religion, fair enough. Keep it to yourself. The topic is not about whether or not religion is a good thing. So try and stick to the topic and if you feel the need to take a swipe at someone, just walk away instead.

    You're being rather selective regarding which posts you decide to remove, aren't you?


  • #136
    K4t
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,362 ✭✭✭K4t


    humanji wrote: »
    Let's stop that now. If you don't like religion, fair enough. Keep it to yourself. If you think we all need religion, fair enough. Keep it to yourself. The topic is not about whether or not religion is a good thing. So try and stick to the topic and if you feel the need to take a swipe at someone, just walk away instead.
    Why can't it be about any of those things? We're all adults here, let people discuss what they want to and stop dictating the flow of discussion in an attempt to seem tolerant and keep everybody happy. It's after hours, not religion or atheism class, no need for a teacher to silence opposing ideas.


  • #137
    hoodwinked
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,175 ✭✭✭hoodwinked


    AlanG wrote: »
    The main problem with getting more non and milti denomination schools is that the parents of parents in religious schools don’t want their school changed. Most would like more choice in there are but not their particular school. In a lot of cases this is because the secular schools have a bad reputation and were seen as the rougher tech schools in many areas. Another reason is that the churches seem to be very good at building and running schools. Ireland may well be a far poorer country if it were not for the fact that the church had such a major role in our schools and health care. There is a perception among many that standards in our hospitals have declined as less and less religious people are involved. People want the church out of civil society (but just not in their local schools and hospitals).

    we have three fantastic educate together schools near us, but yet parents we know are Atheists are baptising their child to get them into a local national school which i know doesn't require a baptismal cert, and has a history of admitting students without one, despite their justifications of the baptism being entry to schools...


    while you have terrible parents like these, schools will remain catholic as the department of education will have these children on record as catholic.


  • #138
    Ghost Buster
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,172 ✭✭✭Ghost Buster


    hoodwinked wrote: »
    we have three fantastic educate together schools near us, but yet parents we know are Atheists are baptising their child to get them into a local national school which i know doesn't require a baptismal cert, and has a history of admitting students without one, despite their justifications of the baptism being entry to schools...


    while you have terrible parents like these, schools will remain catholic as the department of education will have these children on record as catholic.

    Thats so very very depressing


  • #139
    humanji
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,976 ✭✭✭✭humanji


    liam24 wrote: »
    You're being rather selective regarding which posts you decide to remove, aren't you?
    You posted right after the warning and continued the bickering.
    K4t wrote: »
    Why can't it be about any of those things? We're all adults here, let people discuss what they want to and stop dictating the flow of discussion in an attempt to seem tolerant and keep everybody happy. It's after hours, not religion or atheism class, no need for a teacher to silence opposing ideas.
    MOD: After Hours doesn't exist for people to insult one another. If you want to debate that, start a feedback thread. If you want to discuss the merits of religion, then start a thread in the relevant forum. Don't drag this thread off topic.


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