My four year old has just been discriminated based on her religion!

A_Sober_Paddy

skallywag wrote: »

Is that you Henry?

What?

I'm of the believe that no religious group should own property, its a religion not a business, and its supposed to be done for the love blah blah stupid religious non sense the lot

vicwatson

A_Sober_Paddy wrote: »

Well if the church owns all these properties, the state should remove them and take them for themselves...In punishment for the decades of a abuses the church has enforced on the people of this state

And why aren't they paying up 100% of the victims redress scheme - the fund of € 1.4 billion is being paid 50% by the taxpayer and 50% by the various Churches, why? Why aren't they paying 100% of this.

"Under a controversial 2002 indemnity agreement, 18 religious orders which ran care institutions pledged to contribute €128m in cash, property and counselling services towards redress costs for abuse survivors. However, they later agreed to contribute €352.6 million for victims of institutional abuse. So far they have paid less than a quarter of that."

It's wayyyy short of the €700 miliion they owe

Get the Pope to sell a few of their paintings.

cruizer101

average_runner wrote: »

Then maybe the state should pay back the money to the churches that funded these schools for years

One point regarding this is that the state did pay for these school throughout the years. Yes it wasn't through the government coffers it was through the churches but where do you think the church got its money from the people i.e. the state. Every joe soap soap was expected to pay up to the church as much as they were expected to pay their taxes, that was the hold the church held on the Irish state for years. So whether it was paid by the church or government at the end of the day it was the people of Ireland who paid. The people of Ireland have now changed and evolved their views and so should the schools for which they paid.

LeeMajors

positron wrote: »

And now I know how it feels like. It feels like someone punched my in my lower abdomen. It feels as if I am a primate covered in my own feces and a bunch of 'civilized high society' is looking down at us from their high power position.

It feels like they thinks my smart, intelligent and super compassionate four year old girl - who is everything I live for - is not up to their standards because her father (me) wanted to keep the simple values of honesty and integrity and respect (which is why I decided not to lie to a priest or a church).

Forgetting how I feel about it for a moment, come September, I don't know how I am going to explain to my four year old that she's "special" that she can't go to the same school where all of her neighbors and creche buddies are going to. She already knows this 'BIG' school where she was going to go as it's right next to her creche. It's literally 10 mins walk away from our house. Instead she will have to be taken a school far away in a car, every morning, which I think also puts an end to my wife's ambitions to go back to work for another while.

I can't believe in this discrimination is allowed in this day and age. Imagine what would happen if the local butchers or barber shop decided to prioritize their clients based on religion or hair colour!!

/Rant. Apparently I am an "untouchable". I am just gutted, that's all. :(

If you don't want your kid educated in a catholic school then don't try and enrole him/her in a catholic school.
Try one of those educate together schools where they apologise to people for trying to educate their kids about religious fundamentalism like we seen last week.

Whosthis

If she has no religion how has she been discriminated against on this basis? You chose not to have her baptised as you didn't want to indoctrinate her into the Catholic Church but now you expect her to be able to attend a Catholic school and claim discrimination when she cacan't. The mind boggles.

LeeMajors

vicwatson wrote: »

And why aren't they paying up 100% of the victims redress scheme - the fund of € 1.4 billion is being paid 50% by the taxpayer and 50% by the various Churches, why? Why aren't they paying 100% of this.

"Under a controversial 2002 indemnity agreement, 18 religious orders which ran care institutions pledged to contribute €128m in cash, property and counselling services towards redress costs for abuse survivors. However, they later agreed to contribute €352.6 million for victims of institutional abuse. So far they have paid less than a quarter of that."

Get the Pope to sell a few of their paintings.

Who put those children into the care of the Catholic run institutions?
Ask Bertie.

average_runner

vicwatson wrote: »

My local school recently got an extension to their school, and a friends school was completely rebuilt - are you telling me that the taxpayer has now gifted these buildings to the Catholic Church, even though the taxpayer paid for them?



And vice versa, perhaps the Catholic Church should not be looking for state funding if they want Catholic Schools, let them fund themselves and see how many "Catholics" take them up in the year 2015. That'll learn them quick!

Or maybe the church should take a step back and close the schools, its is their property

Eugene Norman

LeeMajors wrote: »

If you don't want your kid educated in a catholic school then don't try and enrole him/her in a catholic school.
Try one of those educate together schools where they apologise to people for trying to educate their kids about religious fundamentalism like we seen last week.

He feels all schools should be secular. I agree but...

We should take, as ordinary people, some hints from elites. When I lived in the UK I knew some posh people, self proclaimed socialists who opposed private school ( what they call public school) and yet had gone themselves or -- in honest moments -- admitted to trying to send their offspring to those schools. Argument was they were there and until the situation was reformed no point in being a martyr.

bjork

This thread is very dramatic

Have the school stated this is the sole reason she was refused?
Why did she think that was her school-who told her that?
How to explain why her friends/neighbours different: They're catholic and were not - prime learning opportunity
How far is far away? Have you checked all other faith schools in the area, if you are determined to send your atheist daughter to a faith school?

positron

Alright, I have calmed down a bit, I think. Rejection is hard, but oh well, it's only a school place, No biggie!

Thanks for all the thoughts and comments. Like a number of yous suggested this is clearly a repercussion of her not being baptised and I should have known this is going to happen and shouldn't be crying now. 100% true - and I knew this was coming up, but I was hoping against odds that this wouldn't happen. Hear me out.

I didn't grow up in Ireland. Where I grew up, a percentage of schools are run by religious bodies, but yet they are not allowed to discriminate by religion, and they are not allowed to teach religion as part of the curriculum (as far as I know). In fact, the very idea of a child or a person having to be in records as of a particular religion is still an alien notion to me. But I knew of it of course, how could you not living here in Ireland, and I am married to an Irish woman, who also knew all about this. And we were warned by the grand parents that this might get in the way of school admissions as well. So we knew full well about it. So, I did look into baptism to see what it takes. It turns out we don't actually know any preists as we don't go to church other than for weddings or funerals, and then it turns out I would have to lie to the Church that I would bring up the child as a Catholic (not sure if technically possible as I am not a Christian myself) but more importantly, I didn't want to lie or deceive a system that I know a lot of very good and very honest people trust and believes in. I just didn't want to abuse it. Anyway, so that's all history. The point is 'not baptising' was not as much a 'choice' that I made, it kinda turned out that way.

Just to clarify some of the questions raised in the thread - the school in question is the new massive St Marys school in Bryanstown in Drogheda. It was under construction back when we put her name down when she was just a few weeks old! They take in like 150 kids every year I think. We live 10 mins walking distance from school.

Anyway, my very simple point of view is that school / religion are two different things and shouldn't be brought together. Discriminating based on religion is and should be treated just as seriously as discriminating based on skin colour, race, background etc. and clearly I failed to realise how behind rest of the world (no offense meant) Ireland is when it comes to giving equal rights to all people. I am disappointed, but wiser.

Thanks again!

bjork

positron wrote: »

Alright, I have calmed down a bit, I think. Rejection is hard, but oh well, it's only a school place, No biggie!

Thanks for all the thoughts and comments. Like a number of yous suggested this is clearly a repercussion of her not being baptised and I should have known this is going to happen and shouldn't be crying now. 100% true - and I knew this was coming up, but I was hoping against odds that this wouldn't happen. Hear me out.

I didn't grow up in Ireland. Where I grew up, a percentage of schools are run by religious bodies, but yet they are not allowed to discriminate by religion, and they are not allowed to teach religion as part of the curriculum (as far as I know). In fact, the very idea of a child or a person having to be in records as of a particular religion is still an alien notion to me. But I knew of it of course, how could you not living here in Ireland, and I am married to an Irish woman, who also knew all about this. And we were warned by the grand parents that this might get in the way of school admissions as well. So we knew full well about it. So, I did look into baptism to see what it takes. It turns out we don't actually know any preists as we don't go to church other than for weddings or funerals, and then it turns out I would have to lie to the Church that I would bring up the child as a Catholic (not sure if technically possible as I am not a Christian myself) but more importantly, I didn't want to lie or deceive a system that I know a lot of very good and very honest people trust and believes in. I just didn't want to abuse it. Anyway, so that's all history. The point is 'not baptising' was not as much a 'choice' that I made, it kinda turned out that way.

Just to clarify some of the questions raised in the thread - the school in question is the new massive St Marys school in Bryanstown in Drogheda. It was under construction back when we put her name down when she was just a few weeks old! They take in like 150 kids every year I think. We live 10 mins walking distance from school.

Anyway, my very simple point of view is that school / religion are two different things and shouldn't be brought together. Discriminating based on religion is and should be treated just as seriously as discriminating based on skin colour, race, background etc. and clearly I failed to realise how behind rest of the world (no offense meant) Ireland is when it comes to giving equal rights to all people. I am disappointed, but wiser.

Thanks again!

If you live 10 minutes walking distance from that particular school, there are many other schools in that catchment area. Where were you planning on driving far away to, out of interest?

skallywag

OP, what makes you so sure that she was refused on the grounds of religion? Have you reason to believe that it was not simply because they were oversubscribed and that you were just unlucky?

mrbrianj

Emm..
A school is over subscribed - blame the Catholic Church
The school has enrolment policy - Blame the Catholic Church
The Catholic Church provided education before the foundation of the state when nobody else would - Blame the Catholic Church
The State did not build enough schools to match population changes and new development - Blame the Catholic Church
The State did not take charge of / or divest school patronage although asked to by the church - Blame the Catholic Church
Nobody gathered together and founded a school based on what you want - Blame the Catholic Church

Dont get me wrong the RC church has alot to answer for, but they are too easy a scapegoat, suits everybody to lay the blame at the Church door (government, Dept of Ed, planners, parents get an easy get out of jail card)

BTW the COI use the same type of policies as RC schools and have the same issues with kids not getting (check out the Wicklow forum)

eviltwin

skallywag wrote: »

OP, what makes you so sure that she was refused on the grounds of religion? Have you reason to believe that it was not simply because they were oversubscribed and that you were just unlucky?

In fairness if its a RCC school non religious kids are put to the bottom of the list so if there is any kind of demand for spaces a non catholic child is unable to get a place.

OP I can understand why you are pissed off. My local school is a two minute walk from my house, I can see it from my kitchen window. We aren't catholic so we had to send our child to an ET which is a car journey away. Yes its a pain to have to drive but he's there now and settled and personally I'm much happier with the ethos there and I feel we've made the right choice.

I hope you get sorted.

Moonbeam

positron wrote: »

And now I know how it feels like. It feels like someone punched my in my lower abdomen. It feels as if I am a primate covered in my own feces and a bunch of 'civilized high society' is looking down at us from their high power position.

It feels like they thinks my smart, intelligent and super compassionate four year old girl - who is everything I live for - is not up to their standards because her father (me) wanted to keep the simple values of honesty and integrity and respect (which is why I decided not to lie to a priest or a church).

Forgetting how I feel about it for a moment, come September, I don't know how I am going to explain to my four year old that she's "special" that she can't go to the same school where all of her neighbors and creche buddies are going to. She already knows this 'BIG' school where she was going to go as it's right next to her creche. It's literally 10 mins walk away from our house. Instead she will have to be taken a school far away in a car, every morning, which I think also puts an end to my wife's ambitions to go back to work for another while.

I can't believe in this discrimination is allowed in this day and age. Imagine what would happen if the local butchers or barber shop decided to prioritize their clients based on religion or hair colour!!

/Rant. Apparently I am an "untouchable". I am just gutted, that's all. :(

We also had major school place issues,we bought our house as near to the school as we could (7 minute walk)put her name down at 14 months and sent her to Naíonra in the school.
They go on a 1st come 1st served basis.
She didn't get a place and the nearest Gaelscoil that accepted her was in a different county and 12km away,I was pregnant and had a baby and a 2 year old. It was hell.
Did you read the schools enrollment policies?
Did they stick to them?
Where is she on the waiting list?

vicwatson

LeeMajors wrote: »

If you don't want your kid educated in a catholic school then don't try and enrole him/her in a catholic school.
Try one of those educate together schools where they apologise to people for trying to educate their kids about religious fundamentalism like we seen last week.

Grow up please.

LeeMajors wrote: »

Who put those children into the care of the Catholic run institutions?
Ask Bertie.

Oh so it's the taxpayers fault is it?

average_runner wrote: »

Or maybe the church should take a step back and close the schools, its is their property

So you don't know then whether these extension/new builds are now state property?

byhookorbycrook

"]In fairness if its a RCC school non religious kids are put to the bottom of the list so if there is any kind of demand for spaces a non catholic child is unable to get a place"
Untrue, it depends on the policy of the school. Our school is a Catholic school and we do not have religion as part of our entrance criteria.

positron

bjork wrote: »

If you live 10 minutes walking distance from that particular school, there are many other schools in that catchment area. Where were you planning on driving far away to, out of interest?

The Le Cheile Educate Together. It's not that far away, just 10 mins without traffic. I was reacting badly to the news, apologies!

Bob24

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

The school has its standards, you can either comply with them or not, but if you decide not to do so you have no justification for whining about it.

Can you remind us who is funding the school?

positron

skallywag wrote: »

OP, what makes you so sure that she was refused on the grounds of religion? Have you reason to believe that it was not simply because they were oversubscribed and that you were just unlucky?

The refusal letter states they were over-subscribed and based on the admissions policy. Which on their website states priority to local catholic children and for siblings of existing pupil.

We had applied pretty much as soon as she was born, so we would have been almost at the top of the pile if it was purely a first-come first-served basis. We know that isn't the case because a family friend has their little one accepted to the school, they didn't apply until like last year, but their first one already is a pupil at the school. So I guess it's hard to pin point why she didn't get it, but I would hazard a guess that she would have gotten it if she was baptized.

skallywag

eviltwin wrote: »

In fairness if its a RCC school non religious kids are put to the bottom of the list so if there is any kind of demand for spaces a non catholic child is unable to get a place.

This may be true of some particular schools but it is certainly not the hard and fast rule. Plenty of RC schools do not follow such a policy.

pwurple

positron wrote: »

The Le Cheile Educate Together. It's not that far away, just 10 mins without traffic. I was reacting badly to the news, apologies!

A ten minute drive will be fine. You won't need to explain anything unusual to your daughter, and your wife can certainly work around that. Plus, you won't be faced with deciding whether or not to exclude your child from classes like communion preparation etc.

It sounds like it's worked out just right.

skallywag

positron wrote: »

...Which on their website states priority to local catholic children and for siblings of existing pupil...

OK, that states it pretty categorically to be fair, there can be no real doubt so as to the reason ...

eviltwin

positron wrote: »

The refusal letter states they were over-subscribed and based on the admissions policy. Which on their website states priority to local catholic children and for siblings of existing pupil.

We had applied pretty much as soon as she was born, so we would have been almost at the top of the pile if it was purely a first-come first-served basis. We know that isn't the case because a family friend has their little one accepted to the school, they didn't apply until like last year, but their first one already is a pupil at the school. So I guess it's hard to pin point why she didn't get it, but I would hazard a guess that she would have gotten it if she was baptized.

Get her name down for the ET pronto. Tbh I know its a pain but if you aren't religious you'll probably count your blessings she's not in a RC school.

beyondbelief67

positron wrote: »

The refusal letter states they were over-subscribed and based on the admissions policy. Which on their website states priority to local catholic children and for siblings of existing pupil.

We had applied pretty much as soon as she was born, so we would have been almost at the top of the pile if it was purely a first-come first-served basis. We know that isn't the case because a family friend has their little one accepted to the school, they didn't apply until like last year, but their first one already is a pupil at the school. So I guess it's hard to pin point why she didn't get it, but I would hazard a guess that she would have gotten it if she was baptized.

You could appeal the decision through the education board and the chair committee from the school I had to do this for my children when I first moved here, and amazing when I did a place soon was available.
But where we lived before my older children went to the educate together school, and I think that it was a brilliant school far better.
good luck hope your little one isn't too upset being away from her friends, but children are very resilient like that and make friends very quickly.

uck51js9zml2yt

I wouldn't guarantee a place in ET.
We had our son down from when he was born. He starts school in September at 5.
We got a letter last week to say its full and he's 50 on the waiting list.
He's going to the local RC school. We're not RC but its not an issue for the school.

suchafunkymonke

Your child's educational needs far outweigh the needs to believe in any "higher power".

Just baptise/lie/do what you need to in order to get the best education for your child.

One imaginary god is just as good as the next.

positron

bjork wrote: »

This thread is very dramatic

Have the school stated this is the sole reason she was refused?
Why did she think that was her school-who told her that?
How to explain why her friends/neighbours different: They're catholic and were not - prime learning opportunity
How far is far away? Have you checked all other faith schools in the area, if you are determined to send your atheist daughter to a faith school?

I do not like to get tit-for-tat exchanges over internet as it always tends to get out of hand, but please stop labeling my daughter atheist. She did not come out of her mothers tummy with a label attached saying she's catholic or atheist or a jedi knight in making! I could ask her but let me assure you, she doesn't know. She's only four!! :rolleyes:

NS77

Whosthis wrote: »

If she has no religion how has she been discriminated against on this basis? You chose not to have her baptised as you didn't want to indoctrinate her into the Catholic Church but now you expect her to be able to attend a Catholic school and claim discrimination when she cacan't. The mind boggles.

Because these are, for the most part, State-funded (i.e. the taxpayer) schools in a Republic.. and in a Republic, you must have, by definition, a complete separation of Church and State.

My mind boggles as to why people don't recognize this!?!

bjork

positron wrote: »

I do not like to get tit-for-tat exchanges over internet as it always tends to get out of hand, but please stop labeling my daughter atheist. She did not come out of her mothers tummy with a label attached saying she's catholic or atheist or a jedi knight in making! I could ask her but let me assure you, she doesn't know. She's only four!! :rolleyes:

ok then, I'll use your word "special"


:rolleyes: Whatever.