My four year old has just been discriminated based on her religion!

onasis

positron wrote: »

And now I know how it feels like. It feels like someone punched my in my lower abdomen. It feels as if I am a primate covered in my own feces and a bunch of 'civilized high society' is looking down at us from their high power position.

/Rant. Apparently I am an "untouchable". I am just gutted, that's all. :(

Do you honestly not see how much you are overreacting here? You have decided to shun this religion, which you are well within your rights to do, but now you have a problem because same religion will not educate your child. Your actions made this happen so quit whinging like a 4 year old yourself. Oh, and by the way - I'm not even religious, just a person who knows that you can't have it both ways.

average_runner

positron wrote: »

The refusal letter states they were over-subscribed and based on the admissions policy. Which on their website states priority to local catholic children and for siblings of existing pupil.

We had applied pretty much as soon as she was born, so we would have been almost at the top of the pile if it was purely a first-come first-served basis. We know that isn't the case because a family friend has their little one accepted to the school, they didn't apply until like last year, but their first one already is a pupil at the school. So I guess it's hard to pin point why she didn't get it, but I would hazard a guess that she would have gotten it if she was baptized.

Were you in the correct parish for the school? As people in the parish have first refusal

positron

onasis wrote: »

Do you honestly not see how much you are overreacting here? You have decided to shun this religion, which you are well within your rights to do, but now you have a problem because same religion will not educate your child. Your actions made this happen so quit whinging like a 4 year old yourself. Oh, and by the way - I'm not even religious, just a person who knows that you can't have it both ways.

I was overreacting. I mentioned it later in the thread.

The school is question has Catholic patronage, which come at something like 15 or 20 euro per child per year. Everything else is paid for by the state - that is by us. It is true that my actions resulted her not having a baptismal certificate - but it's not my actions that decided a religious body can decide who to teach and not to - discriminate and segregate four year old children - based on what their parents did or did not do. Please read thru rest of the comments if you have time, you will see my point.

average_runner wrote: »

Were you in the correct parish for the school? As people in the parish have first refusal

I don't know to be honest, but I would think so - it's the nearest school, church etc.

lazygal

average_runner wrote: »

Were you in the correct parish for the school? As people in the parish have first refusal

This is incorrect. Every school sets its own enrolment policy. One local school has catholic children of the parish as the first criteria, then children of other Christian faiths living in the parish, then other catholics outside the parish, then other Christian faiths outside the parish and then everyone else.

The fact that schools are free to discriminate on religious grounds when parents are legally obliged to send their children to school is obnoxious. It is one facet of Irish life that makes us seriously consider moving to where my husband was born when our children are of schoolgoing age. There is no justification for a state funded school turning a child away solely on the basis of the religious choices of his or her parents. Capacity issues are a different matter entirely.

looksee

onasis wrote: »

Do you honestly not see how much you are overreacting here? You have decided to shun this religion, which you are well within your rights to do, but now you have a problem because same religion will not educate your child. Your actions made this happen so quit whinging like a 4 year old yourself. Oh, and by the way - I'm not even religious, just a person who knows that you can't have it both ways.

How do you get 'shun the religion' out of what the OP said? He had no particular religious feelings, but enough integrity not to want to lie about it. That is not shunning, its just normal, reasonable behaviour.

Meanwhile the school accepted his putting the child's name down at birth, why did they not say, we cannot accept your application until the child is baptised? Because if for some reason demand dropped they would have been short on numbers and would have lost funding and possibly a teacher. (a paid by the state teacher, paid by all of us theist and atheist, Catholic and whatever). So they leave him in limbo (ha!) until it suits them.

Education is for schools, religion is for churches.

pwurple

NS77 wrote: »

and in a Republic, you must have, by definition, a complete separation of Church and State.

The definition of a republic is to have elected representatives and president rather than a monarch. Nothing to do with being secular or not.

Tombo2001

positron wrote: »

And now I know how it feels like. It feels like someone punched my in my lower abdomen. It feels as if I am a primate covered in my own feces and a bunch of 'civilized high society' is looking down at us from their high power position.

It feels like they thinks my smart, intelligent and super compassionate four year old girl - who is everything I live for - is not up to their standards because her father (me) wanted to keep the simple values of honesty and integrity and respect (which is why I decided not to lie to a priest or a church).

Forgetting how I feel about it for a moment, come September, I don't know how I am going to explain to my four year old that she's "special" that she can't go to the same school where all of her neighbors and creche buddies are going to. She already knows this 'BIG' school where she was going to go as it's right next to her creche. It's literally 10 mins walk away from our house. Instead she will have to be taken a school far away in a car, every morning, which I think also puts an end to my wife's ambitions to go back to work for another while.

I can't believe in this discrimination is allowed in this day and age. Imagine what would happen if the local butchers or barber shop decided to prioritize their clients based on religion or hair colour!!

/Rant. Apparently I am an "untouchable". I am just gutted, that's all. :(

Cant believe she was four before you realised this.....

Orion

suchafunkymonke wrote: »

Your child's educational needs far outweigh the needs to believe in any "higher power".

Just baptise/lie/do what you need to in order to get the best education for your child.

One imaginary god is just as good as the next.

Thus perpetuating the problem. The more people who baptise their kids just to get into a particular school the less chance there is of it changing. The church can point to baptismal records and say hey - they will want a catholic education.

Tombo2001

Orion wrote: »

Thus perpetuating the problem. The more people who baptise their kids just to get into a particular school the less chance there is of it changing. The church can point to baptismal records and say hey - they will want a catholic education.

Absolutely,

but I have no respect for people who put their principals above their childrens welfare.

Get out and march about it. I'd much rather see people march for this than Irish water. But in the mean time do the best thing for your child.

pwurple

looksee wrote: »

why did they not say, we cannot accept your application until the child is baptised? Because if for some reason demand dropped they would have been short on numbers and would have lost funding and possibly a teacher. (a paid by the state teacher, paid by all of us theist and atheist, Catholic and whatever). So they leave him in limbo (ha!) until it suits them.

Schools don't look at the enrollment until the year previous to starting. If it's oversubscribed at that point they prioritise according to the policy. It seems perfectly reasonable to do it that way... rather than be handing out Baptism Edicts 4 years before any enrollment.

The OP was probably assuming because the name was down early, they had a better chance of a place if there was competition. But I don't know any school around here that takes children on a First-on-the-list basis. Around here in the 6 schools I checked the policies went:
Siblings -> children of past-pupils -> religion -> locality. With 4 of the 6 not having religion in there, one RC and one COI. None mentioned a date of application.

lazygal

pwurple wrote: »

Schools don't look at the enrollment until the year previous to starting. If it's oversubscribed at that point they prioritise according to the policy. It seems perfectly reasonable to do it that way... rather than be handing out Baptism Edicts 4 years before any enrollment.

The OP was probably assuming because the name was down early, they had a better chance of a place if there was competition. But I don't know any school around here that takes children on a First-on-the-list basis. Around here in the 6 schools I checked the policies went:
Siblings -> children of past-pupils -> religion -> locality. With 4 of the 6 not having religion in there, one RC and one COI. None mentioned a date of application.

Our local ET is first come first served. And advise parents to put names down as soon as possible. Were you asked for evidence of baptism on enrolment?

daUbiq

baldbear wrote: »

What's the harm in getting her baptised? No one really takes it seriously. It'll just make it easier.

It perpetuates the catholic churches control so it is better in the long run if people don't get their child baptised for the sake of it.. :mad:

LegacyUser

apologies for not reading all the posts....

my local catholic boys and girls schools take children from many demoninations.
we are lucky though in that we also have an ET school and as such places arent filling up in schools like they were 5 years ago.

i believe OP that your problem is with the government, not the school. I feel the schools will always do their best to accomodate

ch750536

Jesus didn't think much of kids, it says so in the bible, somewhere in the middle.

I tried a non denomination school for my kids, would be a long drive every day. 98% catholic school in Ireland. Even though a school was catholic, I didn't think they were allowed to discriminate based on religion. Would be interesting to see the facts,

looksee

pwurple wrote: »

Schools don't look at the enrollment until the year previous to starting. If it's oversubscribed at that point they prioritise according to the policy. It seems perfectly reasonable to do it that way... rather than be handing out Baptism Edicts 4 years before any enrollment.

The OP was probably assuming because the name was down early, they had a better chance of a place if there was competition. But I don't know any school around here that takes children on a First-on-the-list basis. Around here in the 6 schools I checked the policies went:
Siblings -> children of past-pupils -> religion -> locality. With 4 of the 6 not having religion in there, one RC and one COI. None mentioned a date of application.

If religion is going to be an issue then it should be mentioned when the name is put down. It is dishonest to hold children's names as insurance.

And honestly, children of past pupils? siblings I can understand, but what does past pupils have to do with anything.

lazygal

looksee wrote: »

If religion is going to be an issue then it should be mentioned when the name is put down. It is dishonest to hold children's names as insurance.

And honestly, children of past pupils? siblings I can understand, but what does past pupils have to do with anything.

But where will Fionn play rugby and meet the Right Sort of People if he can't go to Willow Park like daddy and granddad did?

byhookorbycrook

There have also been complaints about 1st come, 1st served policies, as people feel it discriminates against newcomers to an area. Limerick tried a type of CAO system where you listed schools in order of preference- complete disaster, siblings in different schools at different parts of the city.

My point is no system is perfect. Does your child have a place in school, but just not the one you wanted?

onasis

looksee wrote: »

How do you get 'shun the religion' out of what the OP said?/QUOTE]

Ok, maybe that was badly phrased but realistically speaking the Op's post indicates that he doesn't want to be part of this religion yet he wants the child to go to this school. Why? it makes no sense. Also, the state funds most of the private schools to but that doesn't make my child entitle to a place in one. If you make choices then be prepared to live with the consequences.

pwurple

looksee wrote: »

If religion is going to be an issue then it should be mentioned when the name is put down. It is dishonest to hold children's names as insurance.

And honestly, children of past pupils? siblings I can understand, but what does past pupils have to do with anything.

It is mentioned when the name is put down if it's on the enrollment policy. Do people not read it or what? RTFM guys?
It's not insurance, they have declared their interest in the school.

Children of past pupils is around here... none of the schools are prestigious or anything but it's an oldish area of the city, with old schools, so I guess some people value/request that. I have certainly heard people around here say things like '3 previous generations of my family went to that school' when I ask why they picked one over the other.

positron

Onasis - I was never part of this religion (or any religion, my parents didn't teach me religion, nor did the schools / university).

I don't want my child to get a religious education. I don't want to send her to a religious school. I want to send her to a state funded school which is like 10 mins away. But that school says nay. I think there is a difference between state funding private schools and state funding schools like the ones I am talking about. In these normal schools, "patronage" costs only a couple of tens of euro per child per year. I am sure there are other complications at play like church's land / property etc - I don't know it all.

I am just amazed that in a developed nation you are letting institutions accept or reject on the basis of religion. It is such backward and stuck-in-the-middle-ages type concept to me.

Sittingpretty

positron wrote: »

I am just amazed that in a developed nation you are letting institutions accept or reject on the basis of religion. It is such backward and stuck-in-the-middle-ages type concept to me.

Agreed. It is backward. Did you know this at the time of putting your child's name on the register of pupils?

positron

Sittingpretty wrote: »

Agreed. It is backward. Did you know this at the time of putting your child's name on the register of pupils?

I think their enrollment policy wasn't very clear at that stage, and I think they had a first-come-first-served and/or immediate catchment area etc mentioned back then, which gave me the feeling that this wouldn't be an issue. They changed it last year or the year before and said having your name at the top of the list doesn't matter - we have now now the religion > siblings > other priority in place etc. So yeah, they did change their policy after I put down her name.

In fact it took a while for me to just to realise that religion plays a role in a school admission - I thought that sort of stuff only happened in places like Norther Africa / Middle East or Afghanistan etc you see. I really didn't think it would be a problem. But I was very wrong indeed!

CarpeDiem85

Urgh, I don't even want to get involved in this discussion. Severe bug bear of mine as a teacher.

I'm guessing this school has a Catholic ethos which will be clearly defined on their website and on documents that can accessed through the secretary or principal in the school.

How is it discrimination? They have stated their enrolment requirements. You don't fit the bill, it's not the schools fault.

The school doesn't suit your religious or non religious needs. Other schools do.

As a Christian, would I want to teach in a Muslim school. No I wouldn't as I don't share their beliefs.

This is a governmental issue too. They should have foreseen this coming wayyyy down the track 10-15 years ago and should have provided schools to cater for pupils with different beliefs, especially in developing areas at a more rapid rate.

pwurple

positron wrote: »

In fact it took a while for me to just to realise that religion plays a role in a school admission - I thought that sort of stuff only happened in places like Norther Africa / Middle East or Afghanistan etc you see. I really didn't think it would be a problem. But I was very wrong indeed!

Not impressed with people insulting this country.

Where are you from?

onasis

positron wrote: »

Onasis - I was never part of this religion (or any religion, my parents didn't teach me religion, nor did the schools / university).

I don't want my child to get a religious education. I don't want to send her to a religious school. I want to send her to a state funded school which is like 10 mins away. But that school says nay. I think there is a difference between state funding private schools and state funding schools like the ones I am talking about. In these normal schools, "patronage" costs only a couple of tens of euro per child per year. I am sure there are other complications at play like church's land / property etc - I don't know it all.

I am just amazed that in a developed nation you are letting institutions accept or reject on the basis of religion. It is such backward and stuck-in-the-middle-ages type concept to me.

It's not perfect - that I'll admit. But that fact is that most people in Ireland are religious and want their children to go to religious schools. By all accounts you are not religious but want your child to go to a school which appears to be religious. Do you think it's fair for a person who is of this religion to have their child refused a place to facilitate your child? I'm really not trying to be contentious here but I cannot see how you would want your child in a school where religious education is taught if you are not religious. I just don't get it.

hairycakes

I think the children of past pupils policy is to give preference to people who have obviously been always from the area ahead of people who would have just moved to the area. Different schools have different policies and even the same policy might be of higher importance to one school than another. I think they are very rarely on first come basis (perhaps the ET schools are different). My daughter is attending a school that falls under RCC patronage. I would never consider it a RCC school. Religion is just one part of their curriculum. I'm not in the least bit afraid that she will turn into a religious fanatic. I don't believe religion should be taken out of schools though I do think it is time for changes. I believe it would be so beneficial for kids to learn about all religions/atheists/agnostics through their religion class rather than one set religion. I think it would help lessen the religion discrimination in society in years to come if children had a good understanding of where different faiths come from.

positron

CarpeDiem85 wrote: »

How is it discrimination? They have stated their enrolment requirements. You don't fit the bill, it's not the schools fault.

The school doesn't suit your religious or non religious needs. Other schools do.

As a Christian, would I want to teach in a Muslim school. No I wouldn't as I don't share their beliefs.

Their 'enrollment requirements' does not disqualify a child for not being catholic. (That would be illegal I would imagine?). They are prioritizing based on religion. Lets assume I open a chippers and I will serve everyone coming to, but lets say I will serve Muslims before I serve others, even if that means a non-Muslim person who ordered breakfast at 10 am is still sitting there waiting while I am busy serving Catholic dinner orders. How do you think that would go down?

Why does schools teach religion anyway? And discriminate based on that religion? Shouldn't religion be left to parents / religious groups outside school hours?

Saipanne

desertcircus wrote: »

A school that refuses students based on their religious background deserves no state funding.

Its no different to discriminating on race.

positron

pwurple wrote: »

Not impressed with people insulting this country.

Where are you from?

I did not - apologies if you felt so! I was probably wrong to assume that this sort of stuff only happened in countries with religious extremism. I grew up in India. Anyway, that and what I thought of this country is not really relevant to this discussion - it was only stated to explain how I felt. Irrelevant otherwise.

looksee

If you are Catholic you will have a Catholic ethos at home, you will take your children to Mass, you will say the Rosary and teach the children the Catholic teachings. So how does it matter whether there is a Catholic ethos at school?

If there is no religious emphasis at all the children will learn to read and write, learn about their lives and country, learn art and music and sports. They can do all these things without a religious slant of any sort.

I wonder how many of the children in the school mentioned in the OP's post are taken to Mass every week, say prayers at home, etc? Oh, but they have been Baptised so that is all that matters. Promises? Yes, well, the school does the religious teaching bit.