Pavee point in common sense shocker!

To Elland Back

end of the road wrote: »

how would she, or should she, know where or how all travelers get anything? do you or i know how everyone else does ?

I know what my friends work at, same with my brothers, aunts, uncles, cousins, in-laws and I've a fair idea what my neighbours work at.

Traveller Girl has thanked your post above but failed to provide a comment herself despite being quite involved in this thread. That tells me all I want to know.

MrWalsh

CatFromHue wrote: »

I'll happily admit I am afraid of Travellers.

The numbers Pavee Point have produced back this up unfortunately

My interactions with the Travelling Community has, unfortunately, been mostly negative.

I'm afraid of travellers too. I live near a halting site and I've only ever had negative interactions, none of which I provoked. My car has been stoned, egged, the road blocked, my husband has been attacked physically on his bike, there has been verbal abuse, intimidation, petty crime (stealing from the back garden).

I see travellers in the local shop and the intent always seems to be to create as much of an intimidating scene as possible. Shouting, bad language, getting up into people's personal space, trying to provoke reaction "Are you looking at me?" type interaction.

One early morning I passed a traveller man with a small child and said "Good Morning" and the child replied "I licked your mothers c*nt. F*CKER!!" and both of them burst out laughing. The child was probably 5 years old. There isn't hope for a child if a parent laughs along and encourages that kind of behaviour in public.

And then at a local residents meeting where local residents complained about the rubbish that was constantly thrown around the entrance if the sure, every single comment was met with "Youse just don't like travellers" from the traveller representative. A complete refusal to acknowledge the problem and no attempt to engage.

So, is it any wonder that people have unfavourable views of travellers?

I'd like the traveller girl on this thread to do an AMA, but only if she was willing to acknowledge truths such as above. More stonewalling would be pointless.

Ghost Buster

end of the road wrote: »

its still a risk that is part of a trade which sells a mind aultering substance. can't hack it, go into another type of business

I work in a theatre which is on the walked route to a graveyard. You know theatre End Of? Ballet Dancers, acting lovies, kids concerts, not exactly high risk business I'm sure you agree. We've had a few brawls spill in off the road into our premises when travellers funerals pass by and now close the car park on Garda advice. Should we change business seeing as we can't hack it?

TravellerGirl

MrWalsh wrote: »

I'm afraid of travellers too. I live near a halting site and I've only ever had negative interactions, none of which I provoked. My car has been stoned, egged, the road blocked, my husband has been attacked physically on his bike, there has been verbal abuse, intimidation, petty crime (stealing from the back garden).

I see travellers in the local shop and the intent always seems to be to create as much of an intimidating scene as possible. Shouting, bad language, getting up into people's personal space, trying to provoke reaction "Are you looking at me?" type interaction.

One early morning I passed a traveller man with a small child and said "Good Morning" and the child replied "I licked your mothers c*nt. F*CKER!!" and both of them burst out laughing. The child was probably 5 years old. There isn't hope for a child if a parent laughs along and encourages that kind of behaviour in public.

And then at a local residents meeting where local residents complained about the rubbish that was constantly thrown around the entrance if the sure, every single comment was met with "Youse just don't like travellers" from the traveller representative. A complete refusal to acknowledge the problem and no attempt to engage.

So, is it any wonder that people have unfavourable views of travellers?

I'd like the traveller girl on this thread to do an AMA, but only if she was willing to acknowledge truths such as above. More stonewalling would be pointless.

I'm sorry that you were treated like that by these travellers but I would also like you to not judge all Travellers on these ones. Theirs a lot of decent people in our community but they are never giving a chance because of the bad ones.

Dan_Solo

osarusan wrote: »

What are you on about?

The question was whether or not publicans have a right to refuse admission.

Joey's answer is that it depends on the situation but that they can't legally refuse admission to a traveller just because they are a traveller.

Fairly straightforward answer as far as I can see, so no idea why it caused that rant.

This seems straightforward. You refuse anyone who looks like trouble. If their house has wheels is immaterial to this.

MrWalsh

TravellerGirl wrote: »

I'm sorry that you were treated like that by these travellers but I would also like you to not judge all Travellers on these ones. Theirs a lot of decent people in our community but they are never giving a chance because of the bad ones.

Yes Im sure there is. And Im also sure that many ordinary interactions go unnoticed because I (or anyone) dont even notice or register that the interactions are with travellers unless the attention is drawn by negative behaviour.

I didnt intend for you to be apologising on behalf of other people btw, I was really just relaying how negative interactions have informed my own perspective. And I do agree with you that it is a shame.

I think that technology and social policy has changed traveller culture over the past few decades. I can remember as a child that travellers were visible within the community because their appearance was more tattered from having no access to sanitation or running water. Literacy was a lot lower. These days I see young travellers in lovely outfits, hair done, with nice mobile phones and texting away - so clearly sanitation and literacy has improved. I cant remember the last time a traveller knocked on my front door looking for money. These are all positive steps. I dont know what your education level is Traveller Girl but there is a PhD waiting to be written on the rapid change of traveller culture in the past 2 decades - if other aspects of modern society become important, like education and women working outside of the home, then there will be big changes in the future.

cyclops999

All pubs in Athlone displaying Private Party signs on doors. I've never seen so many Gardai every second vehicle in and around Saint Mary's church and Coosan Cemetery is Garda marked or unmarked .

SEPT 23 1989

cyclops999 wrote: »

All pubs in Athlone displaying Private Party signs on doors. I've never seen so many Gardai every second vehicle in and around Saint Mary's church and Coosan Cemetery is Garda marked or unmarked .

how much is all that costing the tax payer?

anncoates

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

It depends

If the person is intoxicated then yes

If they are refusing a person because they are a traveller then no

A lot of pubs will just close the day to get around it.

I think it's wrong for pubs to turn away single - or small groups of people - on the basis of being travelers but I find it hard to disagree with them erring on the side of caution and closing the pub the day of a funeral or wedding to be honest. I've heard stories from friends that work in/manage pubs that are pretty hair-raising.

h2005

Have to feel for the people running businesses in Athlone today. I doubt there'll be much trade done in the town today.

end of the road

Wibbs wrote: »

I'd love to see you run a pub for a year and then get back to us, but then again that would be the reality on the ground, as opposed to some nebulous naive ideal in your head that wouldn't survive much contact with actual reality. No doubt at the end of that imaginary year you'd still be looking for the usual culprits in your mind to blame, even though you'd have closed the pub once or twice. You'd pass the buck to your well trodden demons. As per usual for you. At this point you're getting a tad boring with your seeking of offence.

we all know publicans will use any excuse not to serve travelers, so any possible excuse they do use must be enshrined in law under the discrimination act to stop them from using it.

Wibbs wrote: »

They do "hack it", but there comes a point. Then again I'm engaging with an actual, 24 karat stereotypical "SJW" whose opinions will never change. Well, they might if you ventured beyond your intellectual(and I use the word under major advisement) ivory tower of "leftie" naive nonsense.

some of them don't hack it. they will whine about how hard it is yet turn away custom because they really don't like travelers but will use whatever excuse. i know this country and the mentality of many believe me. no such thing as a social justice warrior, its made up like the pc brigade by certain types. if publicans use an excuse to deliberately not serve a traveler or any minority group because they "don't like" them then they should automatically lose their licence indefinitely and be found unfit to hold another one. nothing to do with lefty nonsense, but removing this form of bigotry from the country.

eviltwin

There is a huge difference between discriminating because you don't like a certain group and "discriminating" because you want to err on the side of caution.

end of the road

To Elland Back wrote: »

I know what my friends work at, same with my brothers, aunts, uncles, cousins, in-laws and I've a fair idea what my neighbours work at.

Traveller Girl has thanked your post above but failed to provide a comment herself despite being quite involved in this thread. That tells me all I want to know.

it tells you what you want to believe you mean. do you know your friends/family/neighbours aren't doing any "extra" activities on the side? they can be benine stuff.

Corvo

end of the road wrote: »

we all know publicans will use any excuse not to serve travelers, so any possible excuse they do use must be enshrined in law under the discrimination act to stop them from using it

And rightfully so, there's a reason pretty much every bar in existence do not want their trade. My local tell them that they are already too drunk, they know the score and move on.

end of the road

eviltwin wrote: »

There is a huge difference between discriminating because you don't like a certain group and "discriminating" because you want to err on the side of caution.

yes, but we both know which one is used more and which is the excuse. first one used more, second one the excuse given. not by all but by a lot

end of the road

Corvo wrote: »

And rightfully so, there's a reason pretty much every bar in existence do not want their trade. My local tell them that they are already too drunk, they know the score and move on.

not rightly so. they are at risk the minute they open the door. if they don't want to serve all, then go into a different trade that isn't so publically minded. otherwise be glad of what custom you get

demanufactured

end of the road wrote: »

not rightly so. they are at risk the minute they open the door. if they don't want to serve all, then go into a different trade that isn't so publically minded. otherwise be glad of what custom you get

Open a pub in athlone today so......

Corvo

end of the road wrote: »

not rightly so. they are at risk the minute they open the door. if they don't want to serve all, then go into a different trade that isn't so publically minded. otherwise be glad of what custom you get

So when they start becoming violent, or as they decided to do to a pub in my town - pull down their pants and spread excrement everywhere - should the bar owner shrug his shoulders and say "Ah sure, took a few bob today and I'm glad of that"

They haven't garnered this reputation out of nowhere EOTR, and before someone says it - yes, they are NOT all the same.

The majority of pubs in Ireland do not want them in the pub. They can't all be wrong.

Maguined

end of the road wrote: »

we all know publicans will use any excuse not to serve travelers, so any possible excuse they do use must be enshrined in law under the discrimination act to stop them from using it.

some of them don't hack it. they will whine about how hard it is yet turn away custom because they really don't like travelers but will use whatever excuse. i know this country and the mentality of many believe me. no such thing as a social justice warrior, its made up like the pc brigade by certain types. if publicans use an excuse to deliberately not serve a traveler or any minority group because they "don't like" them then they should automatically lose their licence indefinitely and be found unfit to hold another one. nothing to do with lefty nonsense, but removing this form of bigotry from the country.

Sounds like you are generalising all publicans due to your experiences of a few in a thread where you are complaining about people generalising all travellers due to their experiences of a few.

Does this not strike you as hypocrisy on your behalf?

end of the road

Corvo wrote: »

So when they start becoming violent, or as they decided to do to a pub in my town - pull down their pants and spread excrement everywhere - should the bar owner shrug his shoulders and say "Ah sure, took a few bob today and I'm glad of that"

They haven't garnered this reputation out of nowhere EOTR, and before someone says it - yes, they are NOT all the same.

The majority of pubs in Ireland do not want them in the pub. They can't all be wrong.

well whether they want them or not it should be made even more difficult to refuse them. if they are refusing them on the basis of them being travelers with no evidence a particular person will start trouble, which many do, then they are wrong. as i said, the traveling community so small, that publicans can get away with it.

end of the road

Maguined wrote: »

Sounds like you are generalising all publicans due to your experiences of a few in a thread where you are complaining about people generalising all travellers due to their experiences of a few.

Does this not strike you as hypocrisy on your behalf?

being a member of the so called "settled" community i don't have to put up with such nonsense. so it wouldn't be my experiences, but the experiences of others and the mentality of some.

To Elland Back

end of the road wrote: »

it tells you what you want to believe you mean. do you know your friends/family/neighbours aren't doing any "extra" activities on the side? they can be benine stuff.

My question was asked directly to Traveller Girl because of her insight as a member of the travelling community. Seeing as you have appointed yourself as being more knowledgeable on the subject, I'll respond to you.

Of course any of my family or friends could be doing something 'extra'. However, I asked about the primary source of income.

Shurimgreat

TravellerGirl wrote: »

I'm sorry that you were treated like that by these travellers but I would also like you to not judge all Travellers on these ones. Theirs a lot of decent people in our community but they are never giving a chance because of the bad ones.

TravellerGirl, it's fairly simple what people are saying here. People are saying that there are good travellers yes who deserve to be given a chance and I'm sure you are one of them.

But there are major issues in the Taveller Community that no-one is willing to address. These issues have been going on for decades now and ignoring them any longer is just not possible.

The level of criminality within the community is frightening. Every time an elderly woman or man living on their own is tied up and robbed, there's a good chance a traveller was responsible since that seems to be their modus operandi. This particular type of crime has become endemic to the travelling community.

Travellers for the most part want to be treated differently. But not for any benign reasons. They don't want to pay tax, they want handouts, they want to be free to smash and break up what they like and dump rubbish everywhere and play the racist card when someone complains. Where-ever they go trouble usually follows. Everyone has a story to tell about Travellers.

Burying our heads in the sand just won't work any more.

Travellers need a proper organisation to represent them and to admonish them also if required.

Pavee Point has lost all credibility. If it was up to me I'd withdraw its funding. It doesn't serve Travellers in the right way, and it has become part of the Omerta creed endemic in the community.

Travellers are not a special ethnic group. They are human beings who need to conform to the rules of society, it's really that simple.

Maguined

end of the road wrote: »

being a member of the so called "settled" community i don't have to put up with such nonsense. so it wouldn't be my experiences, but the experiences of others and the mentality of some.

That did not answer my question. What is the difference between people generalising travellers on this thread which you have disagreed with and you generalising publicans on this thread? You condone one sort of generalistion while supporting another? This surely makes you a hypcrite?

end of the road

Shurimgreat wrote: »

They don't want to pay tax

and? who does considering much of it is being pissed down the drain. most of us would try get away with paying less tax if we could get away with it, and in some cases none at all.

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Travellers are not a special ethnic group.

they might become one.

Shurimgreat wrote: »

They are human beings who need to conform to the rules of society, it's really that simple.

its not that simple at all. why would they "conform" to society when society has nothing to offer many of them. those that try may as well not bother because when they do everything is thrown at them to try make it as difficult as possible.

end of the road

Maguined wrote: »

That did not answer my question. What is the difference between people generalising travellers on this thread which you have disagreed with and you generalising publicans on this thread? You condone one sort of generalistion while supporting another? This surely makes you a hypcrite?

i didn't generalize publicans, all though i do believe the ones whining about how hard things are for them are possibly the same ones turning away travelers because they are travelers.

Shurimgreat

end of the road wrote: »

and? who does considering much of it is being pissed down the drain. most of us would try get away with paying less tax if we could get away with it, and in some cases none at all.



they might become one.



its not that simple at all. why would they "conform" to society when society has nothing to offer many of them. those that try may as well not bother because when they do everything is thrown at them to try make it as difficult as possible.

They have chosen an itinerant almost hippie lifestyle in terms of opting out.

The fact society has nothing to offer them which I refute since society has bent over backwards to give them every possible assistance including new homes free of charge and so and so forth, does not give them the right to:

Throw rubbish everywhere
Indulge in massive criminality, robberies of shops, petrol stations, old people
Smash up bars and hotels
And much much more.

I'm sorry but you come across as an apologist for this kind of behaviour. There is no excuse for it and apologising for it and blaming the settled community as you attempted to do won't wash.

Sociopath2

end of the road wrote: »

i didn't generalize publicans, all though i do believe the ones whining about how hard things are for them are possibly the same ones turning away travelers because they are travelers.

You still haven't clarified why it is our job to indulge travellers because they are a minority.

eviltwin

end of the road wrote: »

i didn't generalize publicans, all though i do believe the ones whining about how hard things are for them are possibly the same ones turning away travelers because they are travelers.

Lesser of two evils maybe. I would have major issues having travellers in my establishment. I see the carry of them in the parks and communal areas where I live, they are worse than animals sometimes.

RecordStraight

end of the road wrote: »

i didn't generalize publicans, all though i do believe the ones whining about how hard things are for them are possibly the same ones turning away travelers because they are travelers.

Possibly they feel that they can't afford the repair bill should they trash the place?