Pavee point in common sense shocker!

Corvo

end of the road wrote: »

i didn't generalize publicans, all though i do believe the ones whining about how hard things are for them are possibly the same ones turning away travelers because they are travelers.

I thought this notion was put to bed - publicans refuse them into their place of business because of violence and they way they act. They would also alienate other local people in the bar who would become intimidated. And that's before you have the old chestnut of one traveller walking in, being given the benefit of the doubt, getting served and then ringing the rest of the funeral/wedding party. Suddenly you could (very likely) have a serious issue on your hands.

That's not just a handful of publicans, its the majority. And they didn't just dream this situation with travellers up, its from experience.

RobYourBuilder

TravellerGirl wrote: »

It kinda f*cking ain't. I really hope your kids stay in school and don't blame you if they leave

As of 2011, only 115 travellers completed a third level education. Their unemployment rate stood at 84%. Eye watering figures.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/80-of-travellers-unemployed-cso-211310.html

Only 50% of travellers make it to their 40th birthday. 16% die from coronary disease, 16% from fatal road accidents. 25% of traveller women die from cancer.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/sad-truth-revealed-about-travellers-life-expectancy-26300078.html

The only way these figures will approve is through education. Deflecting the blame won't help.

RecordStraight

Just scrolling through today's paper:

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/shocking-footage-shows-travellers-brutally-attack-man-in-case-of-mistaken-identity-30996735.html

end of the road

Shurimgreat wrote: »

They have chosen an itinerant almost hippie lifestyle in terms of opting out.

The fact society has nothing to offer them which I refute since society has bent over backwards to give them every possible assistance including new homes free of charge and so and so forth, does not give them the right to:

Throw rubbish everywhere
Indulge in massive criminality, robberies of shops, petrol stations, old people
Smash up bars and hotels
And much much more.

I'm sorry but you come across as an apologist for this kind of behaviour. There is no excuse for it and apologising for it and blaming the settled community as you attempted to do won't wash.

i'm apologising for nothing. i've only blamed my fellow members of the settled community for the bits they are responsible for. nothing more

end of the road

Corvo wrote: »

I thought this notion was put to bed - publicans refuse them into their place of business because of violence and they way they act. They would also alienate other local people in the bar who would become intimidated. And that's before you have the old chestnut of one traveller walking in, being given the benefit of the doubt, getting served and then ringing the rest of the funeral/wedding party. Suddenly you could (very likely) have a serious issue on your hands.

That's not just a handful of publicans, its the majority. And they didn't just dream this situation with travellers up, its from experience.

there using it as an excuse to be bigoted toards travelers, at least many of them are. such bigotry will eventually be eradicated i've no doubt

RecordStraight

end of the road wrote: »

i'm apologising for nothing. i've only blamed my fellow members of the settled community for the bits they are responsible for. nothing more

I'd rather you not blame me - I haven't done anything to harm travellers and have had paid plenty of tax to pay their social welfare etc.

Corvo

end of the road wrote: »

there using it as an excuse to be bigoted toards travelers, at least many of them are. such bigotry will eventually be eradicated i've no doubt

So the problems I have outlined do not exist within the travelling community when they enter pubs/hotels?

end of the road

RecordStraight wrote: »

I'd rather you not blame me - I haven't done anything to harm travellers

neither have i.

RecordStraight wrote: »

have had paid plenty of tax to pay their social welfare etc.

and?

RecordStraight

end of the road wrote: »

and?

...and to be honest, I'd rather not have to. It's more than a little annoying shelling out 50% of your honest income in tax, and then travelling through Rathkeale at Christmas and seeing that you have been funding brand new Range Rovers etc., vehicles you could not dream of affording.

end of the road

Corvo wrote: »

So the problems I have outlined do not exist within the travelling community when they enter pubs/hotels?

all sorts of problems happen in an establishment selling a mind aultering substance. fights, brauls, all sorts. not unique to the traveling community

end of the road

RecordStraight wrote: »

...and to be honest, I'd rather not have to.

well as i said, we'd all try not pay or pay as little tax as we could, all be it i see some bit of value from it

Aidric

Corvo wrote: »

I thought this notion was put to bed - publicans refuse them into their place of business because of violence and they way they act. They would also alienate other local people in the bar who would become intimidated. And that's before you have the old chestnut of one traveller walking in, being given the benefit of the doubt, getting served and then ringing the rest of the funeral/wedding party. Suddenly you could (very likely) have a serious issue on your hands.

That's not just a handful of publicans, its the majority. And they didn't just dream this situation with travellers up, its from experience.

I'm no defender of gouging publicans but in the case of travellers I can see their point in refusing them entry. Once they get a foothold there's no turning back.

I know in my own home town one publican let them in and after that all his settled regulars gave the place a wide berth. The place is now a travellers only joint. Fights and public order offences are now the norm.

RecordStraight

end of the road wrote: »

well as i said, we'd all try not pay or pay as little tax as we could, all be it i see some bit of value from it

I'll pay all the tax I am legally due to, same as I obey all the other laws. Travellers generally seem to regard the laws of the country as something that do not apply to their community. Examples are legion.

To Elland Back

end of the road wrote: »

all sorts of problems happen in an establishment selling a mind aultering substance. fights, brauls, all sorts. not unique to the traveling community

And publicans can deal with the sporadic outbreaks amongst their settled customers. It is the mob type problems that follow (they couldn't be the cause after all) traveller functions that is beyond the control of your normal size establishment

haveringchick

EOTR im genuinely interested in how you find that the settled community is responsible entirely for:
Traveller gangs roaming around the country terrorising elderly in their homes
Making they're way to Australia and across Europe to con and rob people there.
Thanks in advance.

TravellerGirl

Oh so education is gonna keep you alive now is it. When your time is up its aint aintnothing gonna keep youalive.
Now this is coming from someone who has lost a lot of family in the last 10 years. I lost my father andhewas 33, so will you tell mme if he had waited in school would he still be alive

Sociopath2

TravellerGirl wrote: »

Oh so education is gonna keep you alive now is it. When your time is up its aint aintnothing gonna keep youalive.
Now this is coming from someone who has lost a lot of family in the last 10 years. I lost my father andhewas 33, so will you tell mme if he had waited in school would he still be alive

Education in general will lead to a higher quality of life. Lack of secondary education in particular will almost certainly lead to a lower quality of life, poverty and the implications for health that go with it.

eviltwin

TravellerGirl wrote: »

Oh so education is gonna keep you alive now is it. When your time is up its aint aintnothing gonna keep youalive.
Now this is coming from someone who has lost a lot of family in the last 10 years. I lost my father andhewas 33, so will you tell mme if he had waited in school would he still be alive

Sorry for your losses. Any traveller I know has had a lot of death to deal with in their family, that can't be easy. Why are these young people dying? So many men dying by suicide, far greater than in the settled population, what is it about this world they feel they can be no longer in it? Why is the infant mortality rate so high, higher raters of stillbirth and miscarriage? General life expectancy is much lower, travellers tend to drink and smoke in higher numbers than the general population, don't eat as well. All that leads to a lower life expectancy.

Education won't solve things overnight but it will help and you have to see that. At the very least a good education gives you choices you wouldn't otherwise have. Its a shame there is little value placed on education in the Traveller community, going to school, then college is great, it was one of the best times of my life and I feel so sad your young people miss out on that. I can't imagine having to settle down without ever really having a life.

Axel Lamp

TravellerGirl wrote: »

Oh so education is gonna keep you alive now is it. When your time is up its aint aintnothing gonna keep youalive.
Now this is coming from someone who has lost a lot of family in the last 10 years. I lost my father andhewas 33, so will you tell mme if he had waited in school would he still be alive

.


What's your opinion on the funeral today in Athlone. Why did it need such a heavy police presence?

Your buddy Martin Collins said the police overreacted. Sure they did Martin, sure they did........

haveringchick

TravellerGirl wrote: »

Oh so education is gonna keep you alive now is it. When your time is up its aint aintnothing gonna keep youalive.
Now this is coming from someone who has lost a lot of family in the last 10 years. I lost my father andhewas 33, so will you tell mme if he had waited in school would he still be alive

Travellergirl if uou have babies I beg you o send them yo school and send them every day snd send them right up to Leaving Cert. If they do yhe Leaving Cert then they can decide if they want to get more education, get a proper job, earn wages instead of relying on state handouts, travel, be a citizen contributing to society. It really does feel good.
Or go on the dole.

end of the road

haveringchick wrote: »

EOTR im genuinely interested in how you find that the settled community is responsible entirely for:
Traveller gangs roaming around the country terrorising elderly in their homes
Making they're way to Australia and across Europe to con and rob people there.
Thanks in advance.

quote where i said they were?

end of the road

Axel Lamp wrote: »

.


What's your opinion on the funeral today in Athlone. Why did it need such a heavy police presence?

Your buddy Martin Collins said the police overreacted. Sure they did Martin, sure they did........

i haven't read anything here that said her and Martin Collins are friends

Axel Lamp

end of the road wrote: »

i haven't read anything here that said her and Martin Collins are friends

I didn't ask you.

Wibbs

TravellerGirl wrote: »

Oh so education is gonna keep you alive now is it.

Actually yes. Educated people live longer on average. It even helps parents of educated kids live longer.

When your time is up its aint aintnothing gonna keep youalive.

Incorrect. If we were having this conversation a hundred years ago before such advancements like antibiotics, immunisation and the like, at least a third of the people reading this would have been dead before the age of ten and another chunk of them would have been dead before 20.

Now this is coming from someone who has lost a lot of family in the last 10 years. I lost my father andhewas 33, so will you tell mme if he had waited in school would he still be alive

I'm sorry for your loss, but the answer is likely yes. More than likely. 33 is a very young age to die at and a pretty unusual one too. But let's look at the overall pattern. Traveler men's average life expectancy is 60, over fifteen years less than men in the rest of the Irish population. In Traveler women they die on average a decade before the rest of Irish womanhood. How do you explain that? It's a result of lifestyle and culture. Something or a few somethings are different in the Traveller culture that causes this difference. Lack of education is one of them. Lack of choice in their future another. Bad diets, unsanitary conditions others.

All these can be changed with one tool; education, but it seems(and you're not the first I've encountered that feels this way) there is a sense of fatalism, whatever will be, "god wills it", even outright nihilism in the Traveler culture and mindset. It's quite medieval* in flavour.

I'm old enough to have lived through the last gasps of heavy duty Irish catholicism and it this same mindset was quite prevalent in the mainstream of Irish society, so maybe the Traveler culture, having held onto that for longer and with more fervour than the rest of us is just an echo of that?

The other stress on Travelers is also cultural, this getting married very young. Again an echo of the past. This effectively "fast forwards" life and reduces choice. Especially for Traveller women. If you're married with four kids by the time your 24, your choices are limited, triply so if you left school at 15. It's essentially game over in the modern world and you are left out, left behind. And it's the Traveller women that will make changes in the society and with them out of the way by the time they're baby makers and "housewives" by 20, that's game over for the culture too.





*I mean that historically, not pejoratively in any way.

Sociopath2

Considering we live longer, are better educated, have better health, more career prospects, much higher employment rates and go to prison less often, do any travellers ever stop to think that maybe the settled community are doing something right?

That maybe, without having to abandon their own culture, they should try to be a bit more like us in some respects?

It seems they never get tired of being poor, unemployed, uneducated and unhealthy.

RecordStraight

TravellerGirl wrote: »

Oh so education is gonna keep you alive now is it. When your time is up its aint aintnothing gonna keep youalive.
Now this is coming from someone who has lost a lot of family in the last 10 years. I lost my father andhewas 33, so will you tell mme if he had waited in school would he still be alive

You would have us believe that it is some amazing coincidence that traveller life expectancy is so low?

dark crystal

eviltwin wrote: »

Sorry for your losses. Any traveller I know has had a lot of death to deal with in their family, that can't be easy. Why are these young people dying? So many men dying by suicide, far greater than in the settled population, what is it about this world they feel they can be no longer in it? Why is the infant mortality rate so high, higher raters of stillbirth and miscarriage? General life expectancy is much lower, travellers tend to drink and smoke in higher numbers than the general population, don't eat as well. All that leads to a lower life expectancy.

I also wonder how many traveller children are immunised against easily preventable diseases like measles, mumps, rubella and meningitis. How many traveller children have regular check-ups with public health nurses, GPs, dentists and opticians.

Give them a good standard of healthcare from the off and you may well prevent more serious illnesses developing in later life.

Calina

TravellerGirl wrote: »

Oh so education is gonna keep you alive now is it. When your time is up its aint aintnothing gonna keep youalive.
Now this is coming from someone who has lost a lot of family in the last 10 years. I lost my father andhewas 33, so will you tell mme if he had waited in school would he still be alive

The answer is often a bit complicated.

When we talk about how education improves lives for people, and helps them to live longer, we generally mean a greater number of people will live longer. Their time will come later. The settled community has seen this happen, although the changes are not just education. A man born in 1926 could expect to live around 55 years on average. A man born in 2006 now expects to live about 77 years. That's 20 years longer that people are waiting for their time to come now, compared to 90 years ago. We can and do change society so that more people live longer.

So the question I would ask is this: would you want this for the travelling community? Your father was very young when he died which means you were very young when you lost a parent and this is very hard on the people left behind to mourn.

People die young in the settled community as well, of course, sometimes for accidents, sometimes for illness. But fewer people die young now compared to 80 years ago. Fewer women die having babies and fewer children die. The reasons for which people die at a young change slightly over time. We know that education helps this to happen.

It might not have helped your father. Or it might. We don't know for certain. But it would probably help some other members of your community in the future.

RecordStraight

dark crystal wrote: »

Give them a good standard of healthcare from the off and you may well prevent more serious illnesses developing in later life.

Give them, give them, give them.

Perhaps too much is already given to them and not enough is expected? They contribute almost nothing to society and yet are given free education, healthcare, accommodation. People never seem to respect things they get for nothing.

Stheno

dark crystal wrote: »

Give them a good standard of healthcare from the off and you may well prevent more serious illnesses developing in later life.

What's denying them that good standard of healthcare as it is? It's all freely available through the public health system for new babies to be immunised, see the phn, etc? Wouldn't be anything to do with lack of engagement with what's there already?

On the flip side I remember buying flooring for my house from a settled traveller who who had a thriving business. His kids went to school and he was very anxious that they go through the education system and get all of the benefits of it. The older ones also helped out on weekends in the business.