Pavee point in common sense shocker!

Slideways

I am originally from Ballymote although live overseas. I regularly get asked about travellers and what they are like. Growing up I encountered traveller funerals quite regularly as Ballymote is the traditional burial ground of one of the families, either the Wards or the McDonaghs.

I recall Guards with sub machine guns manning checkpoints on every road into town confiscating anything that could be used as a weapon. Sadly they missed a gun and a man lost his life at a large funeral in the town.

Fast forward the bones of 16 or 17 years later and we now have an abandoned housing estate although this had nothing to do with NAMA. Travellers have made the estate completely unlivable and it now has one of the cheapest houses in Ireland link

Yurt2

Slideways wrote: »

Fast forward the bones of 16 or 17 years later and we now have an abandoned housing estate although this had nothing to do with NAMA. Travellers have made the estate completely unlivable and it now has one of the cheapest houses in Ireland link

Jesus, a 4 bed with a 15k list price?? You wouldn't get value like that in downtown Fallujah.

dark crystal

Stheno wrote: »

True, I know two settled traveller families from doing business with them and their kids were immunised, but if travellergirl is a settled traveller and that is the case it's not an accurate reflection for her to say that all travellers are immunised.

I actually find her posts disappointing as she claims to have FETAC level education but directs all blame for the situation of travellers back on the settled community and doesn't bother addressing any genuine questions she is asked, so for me, she is as much a part of the problem as the rest of her community

Listen, I have no time for travellers making excuses for their behaviour, believe me. I have a family of settled travellers living next door and to say they're a nightmare would be an understatement.

But I've heard what the mother of that family screamed at her kids day and night - they never stood a chance. Whores, ugly, worthless, bitches etc. None of them got encouragement or praise; they became a product of their environment. They never worked just like her, they never finished their education, just like her, they got married young and had kids, just like her. It's a cycle and one I hope more girls like TravellerGirl are trying to break. I'll give her credit for at least trying to better herself in some way and engage in what is a pretty one sided discussion here!

I just so wish more kids in these families got a better start in life and were taught respect for themselves and those around them and things would be so much better between the travelling and settled communities. Respect is a two way street - You can't isolate yourself as a community and then just expect to be handed all the benefits of the society you choose to exclude yourself from. I think that's the problem most people have with travellers. It seems to be all give and no take. More balance is what's needed, not more excuses.

RobYourBuilder

dark crystal wrote: »

I also wonder how many traveller children are immunised against easily preventable diseases like measles, mumps, rubella and meningitis. How many traveller children have regular check-ups with public health nurses, GPs, dentists and opticians.

Give them a good standard of healthcare from the off and you may well prevent more serious illnesses developing in later life.

40% of traveller marriages are between first cousins. That's bound to cause an awful lot of health problems in the community.

http://www.paveepoint.ie/pdf/NewsletterNov03.pdf

Up to 40 per cent of all marriages involving Travellers are between first cousins, and the Traveller Consanguinity Working Group clearly does not intend doing anything to bring the total down. "It is unrealistic to try to radically change their marriage behaviour," the report simply says, adding that whilst marriage between cousins may be considered "sleazy" in the West, it is common throughout Africa and the Middle East.

Nora Lawrence, a Traveller working with Pavee Point, put it bluntly to the Irish Times: "We've never seen anything wrong with it. The settled people have a lot of myths about it, but it wasn't an issue for us. We've always had cousins marrying." 

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/almost-two-in-every-five-traveller-marriages-are-between-cousins-26231063.html

RobYourBuilder

RecordStraight wrote: »

You would have us believe that it is some amazing coincidence that traveller life expectancy is so low?

I'd love an answer to this. If my 'ethnic group' had a life expectancy so low and an illietracy, prison commital and unemployment rate so high - I'd be looking for solutions. Not ignoring the problem, laying blame elsewhere and burying my head.

If travellers played ball with the state and those there to help them, their lives, collectively, would be a whole lot better. Only 50% see their 40th birthday. That's some third world sh*t right there.

Jawgap

dark crystal wrote: »

To be fair, TravellerGirl may be a settled traveller. I'm assuming immunisation uptake may be higher amongst the settled community, rather than nomadic travellers.

Again, that's just a presumption on my part!

Moving around would also compromise any 'herd' immunity they might enjoy if they weren't as mobile.

TravellerGirl

dark crystal wrote: »

To be fair, TravellerGirl may be a settled traveller. I'm assuming immunisation uptake may be higher amongst the settled community, rather than nomadic travellers.

Again, that's just a presumption on my part!

I'm not a settled traveller, I live in a caravan so don't be so quick to judge.
Instead of reading about statistics why don't you become a health nurse and you will how many babies and children come through the door.

Wibbs

Fair enough TG, but the statistics give an overview of where things need to change and where resources need to be applied. EG I could be a health nurse dealing with say three families and all the kids and adults are immunised, but that wouldn't reflect an overall picture of any community, travellers or otherwise.

The fact that Traveller men have life expectancies that were last seen among the poor in the 1930's is something that really needs attention so that fewer and fewer people have to go to funerals of loved ones who died before their time.

Calina

TravellerGirl wrote: »

I'm not a settled traveller, I live in a caravan so don't be so quick to judge.
Instead of reading about statistics why don't you become a health nurse and you will how many babies and children come through the door.

Has it occurred to you at all that statistics are numbers gathered from many health centres who do exactly that?

Statistics are not made up out of thin air. They are based on people counting things. How many people die at what age, how many babies get sick with particular sicknesses.

Statistics are telling you what many health nurses are seeing, not just one.

To Elland Back

TravellerGirl wrote: »

I'm not a settled traveller, I live in a caravan so don't be so quick to judge.
Instead of reading about statistics why don't you become a health nurse and you will how many babies and children come through the door.

Traveller Girl, seeing as you are back online, can I ask you again about the money? Any examples from within your wide circle?

Neyite

TravellerGirl wrote: »

I'm not a settled traveller, I live in a caravan so don't be so quick to judge.
Instead of reading about statistics why don't you become a health nurse and you will how many babies and children come through the door.

Indeed. Ignore the statistics taken from every PHN clinic nationwide, data computed and compiled by the HSE.

Just do a 4 year nursing degree and stand beside a door of one clinic counting potential travellers. Much more scientific.

You know, I was glad to see you reply on the thread, I was hoping that you'd give an insight into your culture- especially an insight into the female side of the culture, which I'm very much interested in. I'm curious as to how different a life a woman my age might have to me. But I'm just seeing you stick your head in the sand when people try to ask about your culture and its issues.

Stheno

Neyite wrote: »

You know, I was glad to see you reply on the thread, I was hoping that you'd give an insight into your culture- especially an insight into the female side of the culture, which I'm very much interested in. I'm curious as to how different a life a woman my age might have to me. But I'm just seeing you stick your head in the sand when people try to ask about your culture and its issues.

Same here it's a shame that travellergirl hasn't chosen to give any insight other than to cherrypick the odd reaponse

dark crystal

TravellerGirl wrote: »

I'm not a settled traveller, I live in a caravan so don't be so quick to judge.
Instead of reading about statistics why don't you become a health nurse and you will how many babies and children come through the door.

I wasn't judging at all. I said it was a presumption, not a judgement and I was actually trying to see things from your point of view, if you'd read my posts properly.

You don't need to be a health nurse to read statistics, but by all means, keep being smart to everyone - that'll definitely help people see things from your point of view.

RecordStraight

Calina wrote: »

Has it occurred to you at all that statistics are numbers gathered from many health centres who do exactly that?

It may have been just rhetoric, or more likely this may be an in-thread example of how travellers are held back by a lack of education.

Neyite

Stheno wrote: »

Same here it's a shame that travellergirl hasn't chosen to give any insight other than to cherrypick the odd reaponse

I'm just seeing Pavee soundbites in her posts. Which, tbf, I can get listening in to Matt Cooper.

I'd love to discuss what was actually in the OP - marriage at such a young age. Is it average? Is it becoming more unusual to marry under 18? I'd love to know what TravellerGirl and her female peers think about contraceptive use. How informed are they of the different types? Would there be a slower uptake due to religion? Like, did all of her siblings on average, marry later in life, did all of them continue with third level education? How did this compare with other families in the site? Was this down to her parents encouragement? These are the anecdotes I WOULD like to hear about.

She does sound quite young and I cant expect her to give studied responses with regard to the male culture of feuds or fights, or statistics of life expectancy or crime or prison or vaccinations.

Why not ask her things that she CAN answer?

Calina

RecordStraight wrote: »

It may have been just rhetoric, or more likely this may be an in-thread example of how travellers are held back by a lack of education.

To be fair, the difference between statistical data and anecdotes is not something a lot of people want to address, particularly if they don't like the conclusion of the statistical data. Yeah, it's an education thing, but it's not specific to the travelling community.

One eyed Jack

Stheno wrote: »

Same here it's a shame that travellergirl hasn't chosen to give any insight other than to cherrypick the odd reaponse

In fairness though, the attitudes of some of the posters here in how they're asking these loaded questions, I'm sure the girl isn't stupid, she may be young, but she's not stupid, it just reads to me like people know the answers to these questions already, but they just want to put someone on the spot.

I'm not surprised TG is giving off the attitude she is, because some of the attitudes of some posters in here are no better.

If this were an AMA, the poster would be perfectly entitled to avoid any questions they wanted and people would be civil enough to take the hint the first time. One person can hardly answer questions for a whole community in fairness?


FWIW I know plenty of travellers, grew up around them, worked with them, went out with a few and all (we broke up when I moved away :pac:), and the vast majority of people I've met who are travellers were sound out, they'd literally do anything for you... and then there were the minority who would rob the white out of your eye and come back for the eyeball. Utter scum. I wouldn't let the minority colour my judgement of people who are travellers as a whole though, and yes, things are very much changing within the traveller community. Unfortunately these things take more time than most people have patience.

A little bit of understanding and respect on both sides never hurt anyone. If you're gonna preach it, at least be prepared to practice it yourself when you're met with someone that wants to engage voluntarily.

(though for the life of me I can't understand why TG would still bother after being totally outnumbered and run down with statistics that completely contradict everything she understands about her way of life).

MrWalsh

Neyite wrote: »

Why not ask her things that she CAN answer?

I agree.

Im far more interested in just asking questions from a curiosity point of view, to learn and understand about cultural differences - as opposed to judging those differences.

Id like to know how come it seems to be ok for very young traveller girls to dress in a way what I would consider to be very slutty (very short skirts, lots of tan, bra tops, lots of skin on show), yet apparently sex before marriage is viewed badly and they consider themselves to be extremely moral. And if that morality is informed more by religion or by parental control.

And why there seem to be limited options outside of becoming a mother and wife for young traveller girls.

Also, do young girls have much of a say in their future, are marriages "arranged" or could they choose someone else. And why would someone want to get married so young - genuinely, would you not prefer to date around a bit, experience different relationships, see a bit of the world, etc... Or is this not an option, and if not, why not?

Contraception - how available is it?

Violence, how "normalised" is it within a family and/or marriage - would you be able to leave your husband if he was violent? Would you be supported? I suppose thats probably variable depending on how supportive some families are, but what do yours think?

Unmarried mothers - are there any?

Rape - with marriage happening so young, are there many instances of rape outside of and within marriage?

Setting up your own business, would you be encouraged?

I think there is a perception that travellers are secretive - so itd be great to hear what you have experienced about the above and more.

Stheno

Neyite wrote: »

I'm just seeing Pavee soundbites in her posts. Which, tbf, I can get listening in to Matt Cooper.

I'd love to discuss what was actually in the OP - marriage at such a young age. Is it average? Is it becoming more unusual to marry under 18? I'd love to know what TravellerGirl and her female peers think about contraceptive use. How informed are they of the different types? Would there be a slower uptake due to religion? Like, did all of her siblings on average, marry later in life, did all of them continue with third level education? How did this compare with other families in the site? Was this down to her parents encouragement? These are the anecdotes I WOULD like to hear about.

She does sound quite young and I cant expect her to give studied responses with regard to the male culture of feuds or fights, or statistics of life expectancy or crime or prison or vaccinations.

Why not ask her things that she CAN answer?

I think I already have in relation to her living with her fiance which I thought was frowned upon but got no response. It's certainly a different perspective from that which is normally portrayed of unmarried traveller girls not even being allowed out unsupervised with young men

RecordStraight

One eyed Jack wrote: »

(though for the life of me I can't understand why TG would still bother after being totally outnumbered and run down with statistics that completely contradict everything she understands about her way of life).

I don't understand this point. Statistics demonstrating that 50% of travellers won't live to see 40 were backed up by the loss of her own father at the tragically early age of 33. She MUST be aware of the truth of these statistics from her own observations.

I, for one, am interested in WHY travellers persist with the self-destructive elements of their way of life. It's hardly a revelation that the difference between poverty and plenty all over the world is education, yet it is generally seen as a very low priority in the travelling community.

Calina

RecordStraight wrote: »

I don't understand this point. Statistics demonstrating that 50% of travellers won't live to see 40 were backed up by the loss of her own father at the tragically early age of 33. She MUST be aware of the truth of these statistics from her own observations.

I, for one, am interested in WHY travellers persist with the self-destructive elements of their way of life. It's hardly a revelation that the difference between poverty and plenty all over the world is education, yet it is generally seen as a very low priority in the travelling community.

It's one thing to be aware of the accuracy of statistics. I suspect the issue maybe in an acceptance of fate and not recognising the ability to change them. Travellergirl has made the point that when it's your time, it's your time. This is a fatalistic way of looking at things. It sounds to me like an acceptance of predestiny.

One eyed Jack

RecordStraight wrote: »

I don't understand this point. Statistics demonstrating that 50% of travellers won't live to see 40 were backed up by the loss of her own father at the tragically early age of 33. She MUST be aware of the truth of these statistics from her own observations.

"I see it, but I still don't want to believe it" mentality. You're not going to get past that in an online forum. It just doesn't happen. No matter how many anecdotes nor how much evidence is put in front of some people, they just don't want to believe what they're seeing or reading or whatever, because it's unsettling and uncomfortable.

I, for one, am interested in WHY travellers persist with the self-destructive elements of their way of life. It's hardly a revelation that the difference between poverty and plenty all over the world is education, yet it is generally seen as a very low priority in the travelling community.

That's what I meant about things changing slowly, I see mothers trying to keep their children in school and out of trouble, while the father wants all the boys to be boxers and the girls, well, they look after the men and make more children. Slowly though girls are being more and more educated, but the boys are much harder to get through to. Not impossible mind, just takes a bit longer.

What actually gets on my tits more than anything is the way certain people who are travellers have become somewhat media "celebrities" in their own right, and appear regularly on shìte "reality" tv shows. I think we all know the Channel 4/TV3 shìte we're talking about here, as if that's a fair representation of people who are travellers either?

Come on, who here actually believes that?

PhoenixParker

There's some fairly interesting statistics on the traveller population here:
http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/census/documents/census2011profile7/Profile,7,Education,Ethnicity,and,Irish,Traveller,entire,doc.pdf

Starts on page 27.

MrWalsh

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Come on, who here actually believes that?

Well I dont think anyone (outside of very naive viewers!) think that its a fair representation but it is fair to say that such a show does give some kind of a view into a different culture.

Even if it is just the small aspects that you notice compared to the main storyline that the show is trying to sensationalise.

RecordStraight

I noticed the bride in a giant wedding dress standing between two stretched hummers in the photos of the recent murder.

haveringchick

Travellers will not entertain any criticism.
Travelers are victims of settled society. End of story.
Traveller girls see themselves as vastly superior to settled girls in every way.There no lsci of confidence or low self esteem.
Men die young because it's God's will, or as a result.of a tragic accident not because of health problems that remained undiagnosed because it's unmanly to go to a doctor.
Most of the teenage suicides are Romeo and Juliet scenarios or boys worrying that they are gay. If you think you are gay then you think you are better off dead.
And your probably right.

MrWalsh

haveringchick wrote: »

Traveller girls see themselves as vastly superior to settled girls in every way.

Why? Can you provide some examples or explanations on what you mean by this?

Dan_Solo

One eyed Jack wrote: »

If this were an AMA, the poster would be perfectly entitled to avoid any questions they wanted and people would be civil enough to take the hint the first time. One person can hardly answer questions for a whole community in fairness?

She is perfectly entitled to avoid any question she likes.
Just as we are perfectly entitled to draw our own conclusions from this avoidance.

P. Breathnach

RecordStraight wrote: »

I don't understand this point. Statistics demonstrating that 50% of travellers won't live to see 40 were backed up by the loss of her own father at the tragically early age of 33. She MUST be aware of the truth of these statistics from her own observations....

Do you really not understand it, or are you playing to an audience here?

There are very many people who do not relate to numerical data: experience and anecdote resonate more with them. While I am loath to apply generalisations to any group, it appears to me that Travellers in general are not numbers people, that their tradition is more rooted in story.

eviltwin

MrWalsh wrote: »

Why? Can you provide some examples or explanations on what you mean by this?

This has been my experience both living and working with Travellers. They have a totally different outlook on life. Whereas we see success in terms of money, status, career etc that means nothing to them. The women I met felt success was measured in having a boyfriend/husband and children. I used to volunteer in a Travellers womens group and they would think the settled women who were single were tragic creatures to be pitied. They are also very critical and judgemental, they couldn't get over the fact I had been living with a man before marriage and had a child out of wedlock because I was "so nice" in their words. They have a very black and white view of how people should be, men should be real men, macho alpha male types, any man they came across who didn't fit that image was ridiculed, women should stay at home, have a family, their worth is in the number of kids they can produce. A Traveller woman who didn't produce a child in her first year of marriage was looked down on. The family beside me have never lived in a halting site, their kids have always been in a normal environment but despite that they still have those views. Its very similar to the attitudes we see in very strict religious societies in far off countries.