Pavee point in common sense shocker!

MrWalsh

eviltwin wrote: »

This has been my experience both living and working with Travellers. They have a totally different outlook on life. Whereas we see success in terms of money, status, career etc that means nothing to them. The women I met felt success was measured in having a boyfriend/husband and children. I used to volunteer in a Travellers womens group and they would think the settled women who were single were tragic creatures to be pitied. They are also very critical and judgemental, they couldn't get over the fact I had been living with a man before marriage and had a child out of wedlock because I was "so nice" in their words. They have a very black and white view of how people should be, men should be real men, macho alpha male types, any man they came across who didn't fit that image was ridiculed, women should stay at home, have a family, their worth is in the number of kids they can produce. A Traveller woman who didn't produce a child in her first year of marriage was looked down on. The family beside me have never lived in a halting site, their kids have always been in a normal environment but despite that they still have those views. Its very similar to the attitudes we see in very strict religious societies in far off countries.

Obviously Id like to be addressing these questions to TG herself, but in the absence of a response Ill throw them out anyway.

Do you think the above opinions are informed by culture, religion, parents etc.. - a combination of all? Or is it ignorance - ie, whats different must be bad?

What about age? Do people soften in those kinds of attitudes with age and experience of the world? Say for example I thought that sex outside of marriage was probably bad when I was a young teenager, then later I realised those thoughts were informed by religion and changed my mind - although some people never change their mind on it regardless of religion.

eviltwin

MrWalsh wrote: »

Obviously Id like to be addressing these questions to TG herself, but in the absence of a response Ill throw them out anyway.

Do you think the above opinions are informed by culture, religion, parents etc.. - a combination of all? Or is it ignorance - ie, whats different must be bad?

What about age? Do people soften in those kinds of attitudes with age and experience of the world? Say for example I thought that sex outside of marriage was probably bad when I was a young teenager, then later I realised those thoughts were informed by religion and changed my mind - although some people never change their mind on it regardless of religion.

I honestly don't know what it is. I live in a very urban area, its modern and diverse and all the women I met had grown up in settled communities but they still held onto their old fashioned values. I think part of the problem is they don't mix, they go to school yes but very few of them have settled friends, they don't join groups, clubs, they only ever seem to socialise within their own circle.

I think part of it is they are taken out of school young before they can be influenced by their peers, they are leaving just at the point teenagers are starting to exert their individuality so they don't have that influence. The women are kept very close to home, the girls in the house beside me are in their 20's but they aren't allowed to even go down to the shops alone, they always have to have someone with them. The men won't even give me the time of day, probably because I am a woman.

Talking to them is so bizarre because you are talking to women who are like every other young woman, into makeup and fashion, pop music etc but they have a mentality that belongs in old Ireland. Their only worth is in their ability to produce a child, their other talents, hopes, dreams are not considered, that has to mess with your head. Its abuse as far as I'm concerned, like stockholm syndrome but they can't see it.

WallyGUFC

If Travellers want to be part of society, perhaps they should start paying taxes, stop committing Social Welfare fraud, stop robbing from houses, stop terrorising communities, start sending their kids to school etc etc. They're well able to give out criticism to the settled population but play the victim when they're on the receiving end (as clearly illustrated by TravellerGirl's ramblings in this thread). They're entitled to everything under the sun and are experts at playing the victim.

Notice how the majority of people say they've had mostly bad experiences with Travellers. That's telling. Of course many of the same problems exist in the settled communities (murder, domestic violence, robbery) but a far greater proportion of Travellers are criminals compared to the rest of society. You'd have to assume that their wealth comes from not paying tax, SW fraud and robberies (particularly of some metals and high value power tools). They, in the main, contribute absolutely nothing to the society they often claim they want to be part of but it's a vicious circle really. If you take their Social Welfare they'll terrorise more communities. Hard to know what to do about them.

MrWalsh

eviltwin wrote: »

I honestly don't know what it is.....

Yes I was thinking about the peer influence alright, if there is no mixing then it would take exceptional fortitude for one person to develop a completely different set of views or opinions!

A silly thing that occurs to me is that children generally develop the accent of their peers - but travellers seem to have their own accent even if they go to mainstream schools, so that would support a lack of mixing.

I suppose mixing as children must be extremely difficult - with the amount of suspicion that settled people treat travellers and vice versa, how could children develop a friendship, what settled person is going to welcome a number of traveller children to their home for a kids party or allow their child go to a halting site or caravan for same?

I have seen locally traveller women alone in the local shops (or with small children) and in fact I overheard a teenage traveller girl questioning some medication in the pharmacy once and she was alone also. So I presume in some cases they can be alone?

I did see a very sad example of control recently where a young traveller woman was doing the shop in the supermarket and at the checkout she hadnt enough money and sent her child outside to get more money from her husband who was in the car within sight of the checkout. There was no hurry on him so she was left squirming at the checkout with the queue getting bigger and she was clearly uncomfortable and embarrassed. I felt bad for her that this situation was allowed to develop at all. It also taught her child that she was a second class citizen.

I agree with your point about it being similar to how women in very strict religious societies are treated.

Willfarman

truck_along wrote: »

travellers are very materialistic people , they may not be interested in attaining high education but they are very much interested in attaining wealth and aquiring items which imply wealth

There's a show house in my locality with Waterford crystal chandeliers, marble floors, a granite elephant out the front and the owners live in a caravan out the back!

SEPT 23 1989

truck_along wrote: »

travellers are excellent at making money even they never involved themselves in crime , they are a very clever and resourceful people in their own way

they just have no regard for their own health or safety

forget about actual robbery and theft for a minute we would all be excellent at making money if we had no dealings with Revenue

Ghost Buster

Willfarman wrote: »

There's a show house in my locality with Waterford crystal chandeliers, marble floors, a granite elephant out the front and the owners live in a caravan out the back!

On the N 4 out of Longford?

end of the road

Stheno wrote: »

How can you say that? You are cherry picking what you talk about, won't talk about what travellers do to earn money

why should she. if you suspect someone is earning via illegal means plenty of ways to report it. otherwise, get on with it and worry about how you earn your money, just like me and many others do. it makes no difference to us how they earn their money, as there are plenty of systems to deal with those earning in ways they shouldn't

Stheno wrote: »

your posts are as damaging to the travelling community as their rl behaviour.

no they aren't. they don't even come near it. a post from 1 traveler on a website wouldn't even register

Stheno wrote: »

sounds to me like you are just being an apologist here.

apologist for what? do you really expect her to know what every single traveler does in their lives because she is one. do we know what every single member of the settled community does because we are a member? didn't think so

Stheno wrote: »

doesn't bother addressing any genuine questions she is asked

why would she. she cannot be expected to know how every traveler operates and does things no more we can be expected to tell how every single member of the settled community operates. she's right not to answer.

Stheno wrote: »

so for me, she is as much a part of the problem as the rest of her community

because she doesn't know how every single traveler operates so won't come in to whatever trap your trying to set? good luck with that one

RecordStraight

end of the road wrote: »

why should she. if you suspect someone is earning via illegal means plenty of ways to report it. otherwise, get on with it and worry about how you earn your money, just like me and many others do. it makes no difference to us how they earn their money, as there are plenty of systems to deal with those earning in ways they shouldn't

So you think the state is well on top of this issue, yeah? All travellers either are paying their taxes, or are in the process of being prosecuted?

end of the road

WallyGUFC wrote: »

If Travellers want to be part of society, perhaps they should start paying taxes

why should they. most of it will only end up going on jobs for the boys clubs like irish water anyway.

WallyGUFC wrote: »

stop committing Social Welfare fraud

there is a huge amount of our own doing that sort of thing. its rife within the settled community as well, but the government aren't interested in genuinely tackling it. there are plenty of systems to deal with fraud whoever is commiting it.. up to the government to tackle it. we can't really preach.

WallyGUFC wrote: »

stop robbing from houses, stop terrorising communities, start sending their kids to school etc etc.

all things going on within our own community as well. we can't exactly preach to them about what they should do when we have the same issues but either brush it off or fail to call for action

WallyGUFC wrote: »

They're entitled to everything under the sun

so are we all if we qualify under the relevant systems

WallyGUFC wrote: »

Notice how the majority of people say they've had mostly bad experiences with Travellers.

have they? some have, as we all have had at some stage, there are bad people in the world. others however, may not have had any experiences, but say they have had as an excuse to continue their own prejudice

WallyGUFC wrote: »

Of course many of the same problems exist in the settled communities (murder, domestic violence, robbery) but a far greater proportion of Travellers are criminals compared to the rest of society.

as maybe, but we also need to get our own problems in order.

WallyGUFC wrote: »

You'd have to assume that their wealth comes from not paying tax, SW fraud and robberies (particularly of some metals and high value power tools).

maybe, but there are systems to deal with it.

end of the road

RecordStraight wrote: »

So you think the state is well on top of this issue, yeah? All travellers either are paying their taxes, or are in the process of being prosecuted?

the state will deal with tax and welfare fraud where it is possible and cost effective to do so

RecordStraight

end of the road wrote: »

the state will deal with tax and welfare fraud where it is possible and cost effective to do so

So...that's a 'no'. At least you are (indirectly) honest.

lubie76

end of the road wrote: »

why should they. most of it will only end up going on jobs for the boys clubs like irish water anyway.i

Well the rest of us have to pay, why should they be any different, they also have a water supply.

I see you are just going through this thread every so often cherry picking all the negative comments about travellers (most of which are based on posters own experience) and giving a smart arse response to them. This might make you feel like you are some kind of Robin Hood character and while you are as entitled to state your opinion as the rest of us, you can read the stats too and know that the traveller issues run a lot deeper than prejudice or bigotry against them. If you really feel the need to continually defend them, at least do some research into their culture and reasoning behind their behaviour particularly if you have the pleasure of knowing some travellers in your community which I think you stated earlier in the thread- this is what people are interested in and would be a more useful source of your energy than what you have been putting into this thread in terms of constant defensive responses.

RobYourBuilder

why should they. most of it will only end up going on jobs for the boys clubs like irish water anyway.

If we all took this approach, who would pay for the running of the state and all those social programs you hold so dear?

CatFromHue

end of the road wrote: »

why should they. most of it will only end up going on jobs for the boys clubs like irish water anyway.



there is a huge amount of our own doing that sort of thing. its rife within the settled community as well, but the government aren't interested in genuinely tackling it. there are plenty of systems to deal with fraud whoever is commiting it.. up to the government to tackle it. we can't really preach.



all things going on within our own community as well. we can't exactly preach to them about what they should do when we have the same issues but either brush it off or fail to call for action



so are we all if we qualify under the relevant systems



have they? some have, as we all have had at some stage, there are bad people in the world. others however, may not have had any experiences, but say they have had as an excuse to continue their own prejudice



as maybe, but we also need to get our own problems in order.



maybe, but there are systems to deal with it.

although Travellers only account for 0.6% of the overall population in the Republic of Ireland they account for 22% of the female prison population and 15% of the male prison population

http://www.paveepoint.ie/category/news/

I wouldn't be saying that crime rates in the traveller and non traveller communities are the same when Pavee Point themselves are saying they're massively heightened in the traveller community

22% is approx every 1 in 5
15% is approx every 1 in 7
0.6% is approx every 1 in 160

RobYourBuilder

1 in 160, no?

CatFromHue

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

1 in 160, no?

Ha, yeah that's right.

I never though to check as I didn't think the numbers would be that high!

Annasopra

Dan_Solo wrote: »

She is perfectly entitled to avoid any question she likes.
Just as we are perfectly entitled to draw our own conclusions from this avoidance.

Indeed. And others are perfectly entitled to point out the hostile and judgemental nature of the questions.

padd b1975

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Indeed. And others are perfectly entitled to point out the hostile and judgemental nature of the questions.

Are you offended on her behalf?

Annasopra

padd b1975 wrote: »

Are you offended on her behalf?

Pointing out that questions are hostile is nothing to do with taking offence.

Wibbs

padd b1975 wrote: »

Are you offended on her behalf?

Par for the course really.

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Pointing out that questions are hostile is nothing to do with taking offence.

It seems any question is "hostile".

Neyite wrote:

I'd love to discuss what was actually in the OP - marriage at such a young age. Is it average? Is it becoming more unusual to marry under 18? I'd love to know what TravellerGirl and her female peers think about contraceptive use. How informed are they of the different types? Would there be a slower uptake due to religion? Like, did all of her siblings on average, marry later in life, did all of them continue with third level education? How did this compare with other families in the site? Was this down to her parents encouragement? These are the anecdotes I WOULD like to hear about.

She does sound quite young and I cant expect her to give studied responses with regard to the male culture of feuds or fights, or statistics of life expectancy or crime or prison or vaccinations.

Why not ask her things that she CAN answer?

Can't see anything hostile in that and it's a genuine request for understanding about the personal rather than speaking of the whole community. And yet, deathly silence.

padd b1975

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Pointing out that questions are hostile is nothing to do with taking offence.

Nothing wrong with a little robust questioning, there is always the option of ignoring/not bothering to engage.

Or you could bore posters by nit-picking at the wording.... Whatever floats your boat.

TravellerGirl

Neyite wrote: »

I'm just seeing Pavee soundbites in her posts. Which, tbf, I can get listening in to Matt Cooper.

I'd love to discuss what was actually in the OP - marriage at such a young age. Is it average? Is it becoming more unusual to marry under 18? I'd love to know what TravellerGirl and her female peers think about contraceptive use. How informed are they of the different types? Would there be a slower uptake due to religion? Like, did all of her siblings on average, marry later in life, did all of them continue with third level education? How did this compare with other families in the site? Was this down to her parents encouragement? These are the anecdotes I WOULD like to hear about.

She does sound quite young and I cant expect her to give studied responses with regard to the male culture of feuds or fights, or statistics of life expectancy or crime or prison or vaccinations.

Why not ask her things that she CAN answer?

Hi, I'm sorry I haven't replied sooner just been really busy.
For as long as I can remember travellers are getting married at a young age but it is coming more common at a later stage.
Em to be honest I never knew much about contraceptive use till I moved in with my fiancee. I went to.my doctor to find out and also by other people. Out of respect I never asked my mother.

I am the oldest in my family (20), three younger siblings. My sister is working in a childcare centre pays taxes as well, my brother is attending youthreach, and my youngest brother is 12 and he loves school. He doesn't miss a day and I will say the best school he has been in.

No other traveller will say anything to you about your kids. They are your kids for a reason so it doesn't matter if your child goes to school. My parents did encourage me in school, I was involved in everything, sign language classes for the deaf as well.

I am only young and I can't answer about every traveller out there but what I do know is that their is not one criminal in my family. My family is very honest people and I come from a large family. I have 7 aunts, 13 uncles and about 400 cousins all together. I can honestly say that about them.

MrWalsh

TravellerGirl wrote: »

Em to be honest I never knew much about contraceptive use till I moved in with my fiancee.

So its ok for you to live with someone unmarried? Would it be ok if you had a baby and you werent married? Or would it be ok if you broke up and you moved in with someone else? Hope you dont mind the questions!

TravellerGirl

haveringchick wrote: »

Travellers will not entertain any criticism.
Travelers are victims of settled society. End of story.
Traveller girls see themselves as vastly superior to settled girls in every way.There no lsci of confidence or low self esteem.
Men die young because it's God's will, or as a result.of a tragic accident not because of health problems that remained undiagnosed because it's unmanly to go to a doctor.
Most of the teenage suicides are Romeo and Juliet scenarios or boys worrying that they are gay. If you think you are gay then you think you are better off dead.
And your probably right.

Travellers get criticism and they can take it some of them choose not too.
Traveller girls find it disgusting the way settled girls talk about being with this man or the next. The reason for this is because traveller girls sleep with one man for the rest of their life not move on too another. Believe it or not an awful lot of traveller girls including my self suffer from low confidence and self-esteem.

Men go to the doctors your just listening to fables and tales. My father died in his sleep and its called sudden death syndrome.

Thats a bit harsh better off dead, you should watch what your saying its very offensive.

Little CuChulainn

MrWalsh wrote: »

So its ok for you to live with someone unmarried? Would it be ok if you had a baby and you werent married? Or would it be ok if you broke up and you moved in with someone else? Hope you dont mind the questions!

This has resulted in some pretty big feuds in the past in some families. Once you make a family, wether married or not, it is a very big deal to break up that family.

MrWalsh

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

This has resulted in some pretty big feuds in the past in some families. Once you make a family, wether married or not, it is a very big deal to break up that family.

So even if you didnt have children, just a childless couple breaking up would cause a feud?

Why would anyone care (about childless couples breaking up I mean?).

Im also interested in the notion that its disgusting for settled girls to talk about being with this man and that. Why do people have to sleep with only one person for the rest of their life? If my husband died would that mean I never get to have sex again or Im being disgusting if I do? Is it ok if I dont talk about it? Whats the reasoning behind it? Is it that sex is seen as sacred or that your body is seen as sacred or what?

Does it also apply to men as well as women?

TravellerGirl

MrWalsh wrote: »

So its ok for you to live with someone unmarried? Would it be ok if you had a baby and you werent married? Or would it be ok if you broke up and you moved in with someone else? Hope you dont mind the questions!

It was hard for my mother to deal with at first but were fine now. My grandmother won't speak to me but that don't bother me anymore. But I'm happy and my fiancee is happy so thats all that matters.
I don't know we do want babies when it happens it happens, I dont
care what anyone else thinks.

Thats not gonna happen we know where we stand with each other. We love each other and theirs not an hour that dont pass that we tell each other.

TravellerGirl

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

This has resulted in some pretty big feuds in the past in some families. Once you make a family, wether married or not, it is a very big deal to break up that family.

Exactly your right on that. Your family will not speak to you again if you break up a family or leave your husband for someone else.

TravellerGirl

MrWalsh wrote: »

So even if you didnt have children, just a childless couple breaking up would cause a feud?

Why would anyone care (about childless couples breaking up I mean?).

Im also interested in the notion that its disgusting for settled girls to talk about being with this man and that. Why do people have to sleep with only one person for the rest of their life? If my husband died would that mean I never get to have sex again or Im being disgusting if I do? Is it ok if I dont talk about it? Whats the reasoning behind it? Is it that sex is seen as sacred or that your body is seen as sacred or what?

Does it also apply to men as well as women?

No some families are different. But if you had no children it wouldnt be as big as a deal. Its because your a women your not supposed to talk like that. Your body or virginity is to be only taken from one man not from count. Thats what travellers can't understand.