Pavee point in common sense shocker!

Wibbs

MrWalsh wrote: »

So even if you didnt have children, just a childless couple breaking up would cause a feud?

Why would anyone care (about childless couples breaking up I mean?).

Im also interested in the notion that its disgusting for settled girls to talk about being with this man and that. Why do people have to sleep with only one person for the rest of their life?

If this was 1955 rather than 2015 Traveller Girl's viewpoint would have been the majority one by a good margin(and not just among Catholics, C of I would have been similar) and the chances are extremely high that you would have agreed with her. Hell, in 1975 it wouldn't have been far off that. Today the majority of Irish people, especially among the young are "catholic" only as a box to be ticked in a census, if they even tick that box. Catholicism of the old style pretty much died a remarkably rapid death after 1980, but in some demographics like the older population and Travellers it has stayed pretty much as it was back in DeValera and McQuaid's Ireland. In that way they have become "out of step" with modern Ireland and vice versa.

TravellerGirl

Wibbs wrote: »

If this was 1955 rather than 2015 Traveller Girl's viewpoint would have been the majority one by a good margin(and not just among Catholics, C of I would have been similar) and the chances are extremely high that you would have agreed with her. Hell, in 1975 it wouldn't have been far off that. Today the majority of Irish people, especially among the young are "catholic" only as a box to be ticked in a census, if they even tick that box. Catholicism of the old style pretty much died a remarkably rapid death after 1980, but in some demographics like the older population and Travellers it has stayed pretty much as it was back in DeValera and McQuaid's Ireland. In that way they have become "out of step" with modern Ireland and vice versa.

If an awful lot of settled people raised their.children the way travellers do, their would be no teenage pregnancy or unplanned ones. A traveller girl respects herself and her body so if that means being back to 1955 well I would rather be their. I would rather be back in the day too be honest

MrWalsh

TravellerGirl wrote: »

No some families are different. But if you had no children it wouldnt be as big as a deal. Its because your a women your not supposed to talk like that. Your body or virginity is to be only taken from one man not from count. Thats what travellers can't understand.

Thanks for being so honest. Its very interesting.

Do you think its ok that women are seen differently and treated differently?

eviltwin

TravellerGirl wrote: »

It was hard for my mother to deal with at first but were fine now. My grandmother won't speak to me but that don't bother me anymore. But I'm happy and my fiancee is happy so thats all that matters.
I don't know we do want babies when it happens it happens, I dont
care what anyone else thinks.

Thats not gonna happen we know where we stand with each other. We love each other and theirs not an hour that dont pass that we tell each other.

Thanks for answering, I hope you don't mind but can I ask if your fiance is a traveller too? Are his family supportive?

Do you think traveller girls want equality? I've met a good few who seem quite accepting to be under the control of the men in their lives and I was wondering if that is normal in your experience.

TravellerGirl

MrWalsh wrote: »

Thanks for being so honest. Its very interesting.

Do you think its ok that women are seen differently and treated differently?

Its ok. Thats a difficult one too be honest.
Some traveller men get away with anything but then an awful lot of men don't. My father in law is very.strict on his sons, what the girls can't do his sons can't either.

It would be nice to see a bit of fair play for a women.

anncoates

TravellerGirl wrote: »

No other traveller will say anything to you about your kids. They are your kids for a reason so it doesn't matter if your child goes to school..

It maters a great deal if your children go to school?

Neyite

TravellerGirl wrote: »

Exactly your right on that. Your family will not speak to you again if you break up a family or leave your husband for someone else.

I'm finding your answers really interesting. Feel free not to answer any that you feel are too intrusive though!

I've another couple:

If a traveller woman was in a violent relationship, (which happens in all ethnicities and classes of family) would her family support her leaving a marriage then? Or would the community have their own way of handling it.

If I'm understanding rightly, sex education/ contraceptives isnt really discussed between daughter and mother? My own mother would have been quite devout so while she was very informative about the mechanics of sex education, it was very slanted towards a Catholic stance - that contraceptives were sinful, that sex within a marriage was the ideal. Would your mother have talked about periods or given sex education to her daughters or is this kind of taboo to be spoken of? If so, how did you find out about the birds and the bees?

eviltwin

TravellerGirl wrote: »

If an awful lot of settled people raised their.children the way travellers do, their would be no teenage pregnancy or unplanned ones. A traveller girl respects herself and her body so if that means being back to 1955 well I would rather be their. I would rather be back in the day too be honest

There always will be unplanned pregnancy, look at the hey day of Catholic Ireland, women were getting pregnant, they were just hidden away and had their babies taken from them. Who would want to go back to that.

I find it amusing that the travellers I used to work with were so quick to judge other women just for having babies outside marriage, they would call them slut and whore and see nothing wrong with it. They never judged the men they had these babies with. I don't know if its jealousy that other women have the freedom they don't or if they really feel that way but its horrible to see women acting that way, they are part of the problem.

TravellerGirl

eviltwin wrote: »

Thanks for answering, I hope you don't mind but can I ask if your fiance is a traveller too? Are his family supportive?

Do you think traveller girls want equality? I've met a good few who seem quite accepting to be under the control of the men in their lives and I was wondering if that is normal in your experience.

Yes my fiance is a traveller. Oh they are but I have had run ins with them at times.

I can't answer for all of them but I do. I want to be treate fairly. I don't like control but to be fair he has that control over me. I do get my own way sometimes but then theres times he don't want to show fair play at all.

Wibbs

TravellerGirl wrote: »

If an awful lot of settled people raised their.children the way travellers do, their would be no teenage pregnancy or unplanned ones.

Mainly because if everyone is married by 20 or younger the likelihood of either would go down massively. There is still teenage pregnancy, just within marriage.

A traveller girl respects herself and her body so if that means being back to 1955 well I would rather be their. I would rather be back in the day too be honest

God I wouldn't TG. That same philosophy in wider society gave us Magdalene homes, orphanages and young girls giving birth in fields in secret and generations of women that basically gave up life as they walked down the aisle. Becoming a nun was quite popular back then and one big reason was it gave you more education and opportunity and standing in the community than being a young married woman. Basically you were more than your womb, less a second class citizen. Now the society that followed of course has its own issues, but far fewer IMH.

MrWalsh

eviltwin wrote: »

I find it amusing that the travellers I used to work with were so quick to judge other women just for having babies outside marriage, they would call them slut and whore and see nothing wrong with it. They never judged the men they had these babies with. I don't know if its jealousy that other women have the freedom they don't or if they really feel that way but its horrible to see women acting that way, they are part of the problem.

Well I think that society used to judge women who had babies outside of marriage, and not the men who got the women pregnant. As a society we accepted such horrors as Magdelene Laundries, babies being taken from women and handed away for illegal adoption etc... Both men and women were complicit in the act of shaming women.

TravellerGirl

eviltwin wrote: »

There always will be unplanned pregnancy, look at the hey day of Catholic Ireland, women were getting pregnant, they were just hidden away and had their babies taken from them. Who would want to go back to that.

I find it amusing that the travellers I used to work with were so quick to judge other women just for having babies outside marriage, they would call them slut and whore and see nothing wrong with it. They never judged the men they had these babies with. I don't know if its jealousy that other women have the freedom they don't or if they really feel that way but its horrible to see women acting that way, they are part of the problem.

Well they are a strong words to use and I don't like them. They don't know that womens story. The men need to be judged they have so much to blame for it as well. Its not about jealousy its just that they don't like seeing it.

El_Duderino 09

TravellerGirl wrote: »

No other traveller will say anything to you about your kids. They are your kids for a reason so it doesn't matter if your child goes to school. My parents did encourage me in school, I was involved in everything, sign language classes for the deaf as well.

Thanks for the honest response. I have to comment on the part where you say it doesn't matter whether children go to school though.

School is necessary to get a decent seat in our society. That goes for everybody, not just travelers or settled people. If you don't think it matters whether you go to school, then you can hardly complain when travelers don't get jobs. Someone who hasn't been to school has almost no hope of getting a decent job in this world.

Also becoming educated is about more than sitting in class. It's about learning about how to take care of your health, how society works, how to talk to people in different situations, introducing yourself to an employer when looking for a job. It all starts in school.

When you say it doesn't matter whether a child goes to school, I hear you say it doesn't matter whether travelers stay at the bottom of society. Why don't you want more for your children?

TravellerGirl

anncoates wrote: »

It maters a great deal if your children go to school?

I didn't mean it like that what I meant that no other traveller will interfere if yousend your kid's to school and they don't. It doesnt matter to them.

I know when I have my kids they will attend school.

TravellerGirl

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Thanks for the honest response. I have to comment on the part where you say it doesn't matter whether children go to school though.

School is necessary to get a decent seat in our society. That goes for everybody, not just travelers or settled people. If you don't think it matters whether you go to school, then you can hardly complain when travelers don't get jobs. Someone who hasn't been to school has almost no hope of getting a decent job in this world.

Also becoming educated is about more than sitting in class. It's about learning about how to take care of your health, how society works, how to talk to people in different situations, introducing yourself to an employer when looking for a job. It all starts in school.

When you say it doesn't matter whether a child goes to school, I hear you say it doesn't matter whether travelers stay at the bottom of society. Why don't you want more for your children?

I've just commented back to someone about this. Read it and you will find out what I meant.

Little CuChulainn

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Thanks for the honest response. I have to comment on the part where you say it doesn't matter whether children go to school though.

School is necessary to get a decent seat in our society. That goes for everybody, not just travelers or settled people. If you don't think it matters whether you go to school, then you can hardly complain when travelers don't get jobs. Someone who hasn't been to school has almost no hope of getting a decent job in this world.

Also becoming educated is about more than sitting in class. It's about learning about how to take care of your health, how society works, how to talk to people in different situations, introducing yourself to an employer when looking for a job. It all starts in school.

When you say it doesn't matter whether a child goes to school, I hear you say it doesn't matter whether travelers stay at the bottom of society. Why don't you want more for your children?

i think you misunderstood her. She is not saying school doesn't matter, she is saying it's none of her business if someone else doesn't send their child to school. Their family is their business. Your family is your business.

Wibbs

MrWalsh wrote: »

Do you think its ok that women are seen differently and treated differently?

That is an interesting question MW and many if not the majority of women(and men) in wider Irish society would find the idea odd that women are seen and treated differently and it would be hard for them to see why women would want that. The funny thing is some women do. Take a different angle. Far more women than men are converts to Islam, which outsiders would see as having very strict differences between the genders and their roles. Much more "old fashioned" as it were. You would think that more men would be lining up to convert, but nope.

anncoates

TravellerGirl wrote: »

I didn't mean it like that what I meant that no other traveller will interfere if yousend your kid's to school and they don't. It doesnt matter to them.

I know when I have my kids they will attend school.

Sorry for that. I read it wrong.

TravellerGirl

Neyite wrote: »

I'm finding your answers really interesting. Feel free not to answer any that you feel are too intrusive though!

I've another couple:

If a traveller woman was in a violent relationship, (which happens in all ethnicities and classes of family) would her family support her leaving a marriage then? Or would the community have their own way of handling it.

If I'm understanding rightly, sex education/ contraceptives isnt really discussed between daughter and mother? My own mother would have been quite devout so while she was very informative about the mechanics of sex education, it was very slanted towards a Catholic stance - that contraceptives were sinful, that sex within a marriage was the ideal. Would your mother have talked about periods or given sex education to her daughters or is this kind of taboo to be spoken of? If so, how did you find out about the birds and the bees?

I can't speak for all Travellers but I know my mother would be proud of me for leaving. My father was a violent man to my mother and she left thousands of times.

No way I wouldn't have ever talked to my mother about those things. I attended two sex education classes without my mothers knowledge.
I didn't know about periods until I got mine.

That talk is not acceptable and no mother talks to her daughters,about it. You find out what you need to know from other married girls or doctors.

TravellerGirl

anncoates wrote: »

Sorry for that. I read it wrong.

Your okay. You misunderstood

Shenshen

TravellerGirl wrote: »

No way I wouldn't have ever talked to my mother about those things. I attended two sex education classes without my mothers knowledge.
I didn't know about periods until I got mine.

That talk is not acceptable and no mother talks to her daughters,about it. You find out what you need to know from other married girls or doctors.

If you ever have a daughter, would you talk to her about it?

Maguined

TravellerGirl wrote: »

Its because your a women your not supposed to talk like that. Your body or virginity is to be only taken from one man not from count. Thats what travellers can't understand.

Do you think this is mostly based on religious values within the traveller community? That a woman having multiple partners in her life is sinful as the Church believes or is it just a cultural moral issue in the community?

Do you mind if I ask are you religious and would you share these same opinions that it is wrong for a woman to have sex outside marriage? Would you be willing to give more detail about why you think it is wrong if that is the case?

TravellerGirl

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

i think you misunderstood her. She is not saying school doesn't matter, she is saying it's none of her business if someone else doesn't send their child to school. Their family is their business. Your family is your business.

Thank you. Its okay they misunderstood.

bodice ripper

Props to TravellerGirl for replying in this thread.

Wibbs

It really is fascinating as a surviving pocket of an Ireland from a couple of generations back. I'm old enough to remember the last of it and back then sex education for boys and girls would have been like TG describes, near minimal and no way would periods have been discussed. I can't remember seeing adverts for tampax and the like on Irish TV until well into the late 80's. It just wasn't up for discussion.

TravellerGirl

Shenshen wrote: »

If you ever have a daughter, would you talk to her about it?

Too some extent I would, because I wouldnt want her to get married without knowing the basics

Little CuChulainn

Wibbs wrote: »

That is an interesting question MW and many if not the majority of women(and men) in wider Irish society would find the idea odd that women are seen and treated differently and it would be hard for them to see why women would want that. The funny thing is some women do. Take a different angle. Far more women than men are converts to Islam, which outsiders would see as having very strict differences between the genders and their roles. Much more "old fashioned" as it were. You would think that more men would be lining up to convert, but nope.

I think it's more to do with indoctrination in travellers. Traveller women are considered third class citizens within their own culture. The only way they can elevate themselves class is by getting married and having kids. A traveller woman knows that if her daughter acts outside the rules she will be treated badly by her community so they encourage their daughters to follow in their image. It's hard not to have sympathy for most traveller women.

El_Duderino 09

TravellerGirl wrote: »

I've just commented back to someone about this. Read it and you will find out what I meant.

Thanks TG. Saw your reply.

You're only one person the same as myself, and you seem to have a slightly more progressive attitude than the travelers people are giving out about.

On the topic of education though, your mother didn't discuss sex education or reproductive health with you. That can't have been easy for you. So would you discuss reproduction and health if you had a daughter?

eviltwin

TravellerGirl wrote: »

Too some extent I would, because I wouldnt want her to get married without knowing the basics

What if your kids are gay? How is that treated in the community?

MrWalsh

TravellerGirl wrote: »

Too some extent I would, because I wouldnt want her to get married without knowing the basics

Id be worried that she'd pick up wrong information so Id rather have the talk to ensure she wasnt being put wrong if you know what I mean. (whatever about level of information given).

Do you have any settled friends?
Are there aspects of settled society you have questions about?