Shooting in Demark

BuilderPlumber

DeadHand wrote: »

Right so ISIS are developed enough to do all the expanding and ethnic/religious cleansing they do yet the rest of the Muslim world is "developing" so unable to stop them?

Saudi Arabia, Iran, Egypt and Turkey are all neighbouring powers with more than enough military muscle to crush ISIS in a week if they wanted to. Yet, why don't they?

There are obviously political and strategic concerns at play too, for example NATO wouldn't tolerate an Iranian occupation of Iraq, but it seems to me there is a lot of tacit support and tolerance of ISIS in the Muslim world in general.

If a fundamentalist Christian group gained power in central Europe today and immediately began slaughtering religious and sexually minorities it would be swiftly removed by surrounding powers.

Yet, no such virtue from Muslim populations or powers. More Muslim British men are fighting for ISIS today than are serving in the British army.

The Kurds, who are themselves Muslim, fight manfully to prevent their own cleansing and the sexual enslavement of their female population but with how much support from the Arab or Muslim worlds? They rely on Western aid and Western aerial intervention to help stave off their own holocaust.

The problem with ISIS is that yes a lot support or want to appease them. Iran is perhaps the only true ideological enemy of it but the US would not want to see Iran take too much control of Iraq.

Turkey may not like ISIS but their main fear is if they go up against ISIS, the Kurds are in a stronger position. Thus, Turkey may see ISIS as something that keeps the Kurds at bay.

Saudi Arabia and other Gulf monarchies are actually the main supplier of ISIS. Their view is to pay off organisations like ISIS so long as they keep off the Arabian peninsula.

Shurimgreat

Egginacup wrote: »

Well that was a plausible attempt but consequently meaningless and furthermore incongruent.

It doesn't matter WHERE revenge attacks perpetrated by people are conducted. You can (in fact you've attempted to so do) rise above the petty "kill 'em all" gibberish that pervades this thread with a few glib assertions that I'm trying to paint the herd as followers of Bush, et al. Your retort that you hate Bush is supposed to qualify as some kind of neutralisation of that.

People of a radical Islam bent (if indeed it is radical) are attacking and killing people, and they weren't doing this 50 or 40 or 30 or even 20 years ago. If I hear some low-rent pundit come on here and say "WHAT ABOUT EL-AL, LARNACA, blah blah?", I'll say "Go back to kindergarten".

This is happening for a reason and people like you have no interest in finding out what that reason is.

People of a radical Islam bent weren't killing 30 years ago? Is that what you are saying? So who carried out the bombing of an american barracks in beiruit in 1982?

Violent radical islam is not new. Its as old as Islam itself. The only reason it declined was because the violent islamists met the west who were better armed.

Islam and radical violent Islam are closely linked, now and in the past going back to mohammad.

alwald

Eugene Norman wrote: »

You can't Google yourself? Jesus wept.

Look the populations in these countries havd collapsed. The people left for a reason. Stop justifying the anti-semitism you are obviously so supportive off.


( not just Jews. Christians as well. Today ISIS killed 20 Copts in Egypt).

Trying to label me as an anti-semit is your last solution to hide your ignorance of the topic and to hide the fact that you write complete nonsense here.

So ISIS are the representation of the entire Muslim community in the world?

Eugene Norman

Egginacup wrote: »

Well that was a plausible attempt but consequently meaningless and furthermore incongruent.

It doesn't matter WHERE revenge attacks perpetrated by people are conducted. You can (in fact you've attempted to so do) rise above the petty "kill 'em all" gibberish that pervades this thread with a few glib assertions that I'm trying to paint the herd as followers of Bush, et al. Your retort that you hate Bush is supposed to qualify as some kind of neutralisation of that.

People of a radical Islam bent (if indeed it is radical) are attacking and killing people, and they weren't doing this 50 or 40 or 30 or even 20 years ago. If I hear some low-rent pundit come on here and say "WHAT ABOUT EL-AL, LARNACA, blah blah?", I'll say "Go back to kindergarten".

This is happening for a reason and people like you have no interest in finding out what that reason is.

You are once again fighting your own straw man arguments. I am not rising above the other arguments. I am making my own. We are not in a room together. I oppose bush. Jail him. Jail Blair. Jail a few dozen neo-cons.

No doubt the US has in part caused the radicalisation. No doubt israel has. But that doesn't justify the radicals.

That argument was used to justify the IRA a decade or more back ( Catholics were oppressed, therefore all violence is acceptable). I heard members of my extended family justifying the Omagh bombings with that nonsense.

Can you have the moral clarity to oppose the killings of comics and Jewish people without recourse to whataboutary. Easy enough.

DeadHand

The Backwards Man wrote: »

Islam must be wiped off the face of the Earth before its too late.

Please reproduce a post in which I suggest Islam and every follower of Islam should be wiped off the planet.

I'll save you time. You can't.

Again, it's easier to paint me as a bigot than it is to actually attempt to counter any of the points I make.

Again, seriously this time, how do you explain Iran's dramatically dwindling Jewish population?

Snake Plisken

I see Nodin isn't able to handle any criticism of his comments on boards without hitting the report button, and the usual mod handing out infractions! I suppose Mr N is a bit like the religion he defends in that he is able to dish it out but doesn't like it when people have a differing view! BTW still waiting for him to condemn the attacks in Copenhagen!

Eugene Norman

alwald wrote: »

Trying to label me as an anti-semit is your last solution to hide your ignorance of the topic and to hide the fact that you write complete nonsense here.

So ISIS are the representation of the entire Muslim community in the world?

Your second argument is a total strawman. Where the **** in my reply to you did I say anything about ISIS being a representatation of the Muslim world. I gave an example of mass killings because of religion. That's one example of discrimination, which doesn't have to be by state actors. I am sure you would agree with that if jewish terrorists in Israel killed Palestinians that would be a form of discrimination. Even if not by, in this case, the state.

Let's stick with Egypt. Clearly you are impervious to facts and prefer your own opinions ( jews weren't discriminated against in Islamic countries even though they fled because you think so) and this isn't likely to have any effect but the Egyptian state TV has run an entire series about the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

Again I can't link. That sounds fairly damning though.

DeadHand

BuilderPlumber wrote: »

The problem with ISIS is that yes a lot support or want to appease them. Iran is perhaps the only true ideological enemy of it but the US would not want to see Iran take too much control of Iraq.

Turkey may not like ISIS but their main fear is if they go up against ISIS, the Kurds are in a stronger position. Thus, Turkey may see ISIS as something that keeps the Kurds at bay.

Saudi Arabia and other Gulf monarchies are actually the main supplier of ISIS. Their view is to pay off organisations like ISIS so long as they keep off the Arabian peninsula.

Naturally, naturally.

There are so many factors at play here.

Fact remains, a fundamentalist Christian, genocidal power would not be allowed to exist and expand in the heart of the West today.

Why does a genocidal, fundamentalist Islamic power be allowed to exist and expand at the heart in the Muslim world today?

Shurimgreat

The goal of Islam has been and will forever be to spread itself as widely as possible and ultimately to take over the world. There is no mystery to this, and anyone who says otherwise is clearly lying. It was one of the key goals of Mohammad and is stated in the Koran.

In the early centuries it was done with extreme violence not unlike the current ISIS violence. Tribes were massacred. Jews were massacred. Non believers or believers or other faiths had their heads chopped off. And this was not mythical stories or parables. This was real historically verifiable violence that many Muslims today actually commerate and celebrate.

After being slowed down for a while with the crusades, Islam took up again, making it all the way to Vienna in Austria where it was defeated in the Battle of Vienna.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Vienna

Thenk goodness for that otherwise there is a good chance we'd all be Muslims here in western Europe today. We really all owe Jan III Sobieski a massive debt of gratitude as ultimately he turned the tide against Islam in Western Europe.

Unfortunately Islam is trying to expand again through violence. Lets call a spade a spade. What ISIS are doing is no different to what the early followers of Islam were doing. And there is very little of what they are enforcing on their newly conquered territories that isn't take directly from the Koran.

DeadHand

The Backwards Man wrote: »

categorising all followers of a particular faith as radicalised fundementalists.

Again, I'd like you to reproduce a post of mine in which I categorise all followers of a particular faith as radicalised fundamentalists.

I'll save time for you again. You can't.

So, who is shouting down, denigrating and bullying who here?

alwald

Eugene Norman wrote: »

Your second argument is a total strawman. Where the **** in my reply to you did I say anything about ISIS being a representatation of the Muslim world. I gave an example of mass killings because of religion. That's one example of discrimination, which doesn't have to be by state actors. I am sure you would agree with that if jewish terrorists in Israel killed Palestinians that would be a form of discrimination. Even if not by, in this case, the state.

Let's stick with Egypt. Clearly you are impervious to facts and prefer your own opinions ( jews weren't discriminated against in Islamic countries even though they fled because you think so) and this isn't likely to have any effect but the Egyptian state TV has run an entire series about the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

Again I can't link. That sounds fairly damning though.

Can you explain why you labeled me as an anti-semite?

Can you prove that Jews were persecuted in Muslim/Arab world as you claimed?

Simple questions so I expect a link this time......hold on you won't find one.

Nodin

DeadHand wrote: »

Naturally, naturally.

There are so many factors at play here.

Fact remains, a fundamentalist Christian, genocidal power would not be allowed to exist and expand in the heart of the West today.

Why does a genocidal, fundamentalist Islamic power be allowed to exist and expand at the heart in the Muslim world today?

It's a highly unstable region that has nowhere near the level of intergovernmental co-operation or trust of Western Europe. Stop making silly comparisons to get your 'Islam is evil' soapbox on.

alwald

DeadHand wrote: »

Naturally, naturally.

There are so many factors at play here.

Fact remains, a fundamentalist Christian, genocidal power would not be allowed to exist and expand in the heart of the West today.

Why does a genocidal, fundamentalist Islamic power be allowed to exist and expand at the heart in the Muslim world today?

Are you serious or are you really ignorant of what happened in Iraq?

Is there a western country that suffered an invasion like Iraq? Compare likes with likes.

DeadHand

Snake Plisken wrote: »

I see Nodin isn't able to handle any criticism of his comments on boards without hitting the report button, and the usual mod handing out infractions! I suppose Mr N is a bit like the religion he defends in that he is able to dish it out but doesn't like it when people have a differing view! BTW still waiting for him to condemn the attacks in Copenhagen!

In fairness, most posters on the boards haven't directly condemned the latest Islamic attack on freedom in Copenhagen.

Condemnation of barbarity is taken for granted among civilised people.

Nodin isn't a state. He isn't obliged to condemn every individual act of terrorism once it occurs in the world.

Shurimgreat

Nodin wrote: »

It's a highly unstable region that has nowhere near the level of intergovernmental co-operation or trust of Western Europe. Stop making silly comparisons to get your 'Islam is evil' soapbox on.

I think you defeated your own argument there. Why is the region unstable?

Why is western Europe stable?

Could it have something to do with religion in the middle east and the different interpretations?

The answer is yes.

wretcheddomain

DeadHand wrote: »

Again, I'd like you to reproduce a post of mine in which I categorise all followers of a particular faith as radicalised fundamentalists.

I'll save time for you again. You can't.

So, who is shouting down, denigrating and bullying who here?

Here:

DeadHand wrote: »

I categorise all followers of a particular faith as radicalised fundamentalists.

DeadHand

Nodin wrote: »

It's a highly unstable region that has nowhere near the level of intergovernmental co-operation or trust of Western Europe. Stop making silly comparisons to get your 'Islam is evil' soapbox on.

I'd argue that Islam, the sectarianism it creates and intolerance it inspires contributed massively to the instability of that blighted region.

As did immoral Western intervention.

A blind eye still shouldn't be turned to the poisonous, crippling influence Islam has had on that region.

Nodin

DeadHand wrote: »

I'd argue that Islam, the sectarianism it creates and intolerance it inspires contributed massively to the instability of that blighted region.

As did immoral Western intervention.

A blind eye still shouldn't be turned to the poisonous, crippling influence Islam has had on that region.

You're arguing that Islam is uniquely evil. Were sectarianism and intolerance uniquely a feature of Islam, you'd have a point. These are underdeveloped countries that suffer from all the problems associated with that state.

Nodin

Shurimgreat wrote: »

I think you defeated our own argument there. Why is the region unstable?

Why is western Europe stable?

............

.....since 1945. The legacy of world war II and centuries of butchery finally made sense dawn. Unfortunately Western Europe is a very small part of the world, relatively speaking.

DeadHand

alwald wrote: »

Trying to label me as an anti-semit

You know, that's unfair.

I can empathise.

I'm constantly labelled a racist, xenophobe and bigot for expressing opinions on here contrary to the politically correct dogma.

DeadHand

Nodin wrote: »

You're arguing that Islam is uniquely evil. Were sectarianism and intolerance uniquely a feature of Islam, you'd have a point. These are underdeveloped countries that suffer from all the problems associated with that state.

So lazy. So easy.

Where have I argued Islam is uniquely evil?

Where have I argued sectarianism or intolerance are the sole preserve of the followers of Islam?

Instead of addressing the points I make you're painting me as something I'm not.

It's actually lazy and nasty.

Egginacup

Bob24 wrote: »

Highly trained killers indeed, who had been planning this for long and received training and orders from Islamic fundamentalists in Yemen if I remember right.

But what is the point here?

Yet they were just easily whacked fumbling around for an escape. Left a passport in the getaway car too. Some professionals.

DeadHand

wretcheddomain wrote: »

Here:

I've no idea what that was.

My best guess is it was a poor joke.

Anyway, it was a clear misrepresentation.

I see Nodin unthinkingly thanked it anyway.

wretcheddomain

DeadHand wrote: »

I've no idea what that was.

My best guess is it was a poor joke.

It was indeed. Might as well add some humour to an otherwise dry thread. :pac:

Nodin

DeadHand wrote: »

I've no idea what that was.

My best guess is it was a poor joke.

Anyway, it was a clear misrepresentation.

I see Nodin unthinkingly thanked it anyway.

I thought it an actual quote, my apologies.

Egginacup

stunmer wrote: »

The problem is the violent backlash and not the printing of the pictures.

You are correct.

Timmyctc

Snake Plisken wrote: »

I see Nodin isn't able to handle any criticism of his comments on boards without hitting the report button, and the usual mod handing out infractions! I suppose Mr N is a bit like the religion he defends in that he is able to dish it out but doesn't like it when people have a differing view! BTW still waiting for him to condemn the attacks in Copenhagen!

How do you know he reported your posts. I reported this post because you're attacking the poster and not the post. Why does he need to condemn the attacks in Copenhagen. Are the families that distraught without his condemnation? Was he thought to be personally at fault?

I notice you have yet to condemn the attack of Craig Stephen Hicks on the three Muslims he killed. Or the recent attacks on Peshawari Shia Muslims who were killed in their mosque by *Shock surprise* other Muslims. Or is violence only an issue when its orchestrated by Muslims upon non Muslims? Will it make an ounce of difference if you condemn the attack or not. Absolutely not. The only thing Nodin, Muslims, Pakistanis or Us share in common with the fundamentalists is that we breathe the same air. Beyond that we as much responsible for their actions as one another. Not a single iota, that is.

There is no need for anyone to condemn something that's so obviously wrong that it doesn't need to be said and people don't have to come out and condemn it because you dictate it so. Sadly what also shouldn't need to be said is that Islam as a whole is not the issue, however, people like yourself throw a spanner in the works RE: that.

In summary, your posts are retarded and you should feel bad.

Egginacup

Bob24 wrote: »

Honestly you are all over the place justifying killings for this or that. Maybe in your circle people think it is OK to kill someone who took a picture of your daughter, but I can assure you that after hearing the story as your told it will not the majority consensus at all in Europe that the man deserved to die. And it is not going to convince anyone that killing the French cartoonist was a normal reaction.

What you don't seem to understand is that some people take insults very seriously. Now it will be very easy for people to scream that freedom of speech is more sacrosanct than anything else. Even above and beyond the "right" to humiliate people.

This is not about freedom of speech. This is about subjugation. This is about finding a button to push and enrage people. The cartoons that these guys have created aren't even the slightest bit interesting or thought-provoking. They are anti-intellectual, the kind of childish dross that muckrakers would produce in an attempt to spark a reaction no matter how negative or sinister that reaction was.
The persons who killed them should be tried, and if convicted, be jailed for the better part of their lives.
But the message should be that if you think it's funny to insult an entire swath of people for cheap chuckles then you will be within your rights to so do, and your killers will be prosecuted but you are ill-advised to engage in such adolescent activity.

Muslims do not give a shit about alcohol, pork, pornography, etc in the western communities in which they live. I have never once heard of an example of Muslims in Britain fire-bombing an "offy" or a "chippy". So the thought of them trying to change society into some radical autocracy is laughable.
They just don't want to be insulted. It's that simple. And if you think that "well I don't care about having my religion insulted so why should they?" is a good enough reason for digging your heels in then you're never going to understand much of anything.

Shurimgreat

Egginacup wrote: »

This is not about freedom of speech. This is about subjugation. This is about finding a button to push and enrage people. The cartoons that these guys have created aren't even the slightest bit interesting or thought-provoking. They are anti-intellectual, the kind of childish dross that muckrakers would produce in an attempt to spark a reaction no matter how negative or sinister that reaction was.
The persons who killed them should be tried, and if convicted, be jailed for the better part of their lives.
But the message should be that if you think it's funny to insult an entire swath of people for cheap chuckles then you will be within your rights to so do, and your killers will be prosecuted but you are ill-advised to engage in such adolescent activity.

I don't think you understand the notion that freedom of speech means freedom to criticise ideas, to cause offense, to criticise other peoples beliefs, to upset and to cause trouble if need be.

The kow towing that you espouse has to stop. Its as simple as that. For decades we have been kow towing, showing cultural sensitivity, and so on and so forth.

And it has gotten us nowhere. The more respect we show to certain faiths the more sh*t comes our way. I hate dragging the Rotherham scandal into this but I feel I must since the issue is similar. A lot of people in positions of power and influence in Rotherham felt unable to speak out or express an opinion due to political correctness, cultrural sensitivity and the very real fear of being labelled racist. In other words, free speech was curtailed by a fear of appearing racist.

Anyone who prevents free speech has issues in my view. Free speech of itself is not dangerous. But when you try to shut people up, curtail their free speech thats when the real evil occurs.

Cultural sensitivity doesn't work. We still in the west tolerate human rights abuses that refugees have brought with them from their old countries such as FGM, or forcing women into arranged marriages or to wear a veil. Its fundamentally wrong.

Irish Guitarist

A picture I just drew.