Is it time to retire the national anthem?

Un Croissant

Karl Stein wrote: »

So you're also hostile to mathematics, history, French or whatever other subject that was forced upon you as a kid?

I guess the difference would be that an innate knowledge of French wouldn't be expected.

Like doing Irish stories and poems from the age of 12-13 due to some peoples expectation that you have perfect Irish.

Tigger

the soldiers song is in english
it was written in english and i know it and sing it in english
it was sung by the Volunteers in english and the state owns the songs english lyrics

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amhr%C3%A1n_na_bhFiann

"Amhrán na bhFiann" (Irish pronunciation: [ˈəuɾˠaːn̪ˠ n̪ˠə ˈvʲiːən̪ˠ];), originally composed in English as "The Soldiers' Song", is the Irish national anthem. The music was composed by Peadar Kearney and Patrick Heeney, the original English lyrics (as "A Soldiers' Song") by Kearney, and the Irish language translation by Liam Ó Rinn. The song has three verses, but only the choral refrain was officially designated the national anthem.

It is unclear whether the official anthem is the music alone, or the text also.[2] Both the English and Irish texts appear in Facts about Ireland, published by the Department of Foreign Affairs,[2][29] and on the official website of the Department of the Taoiseach.[1] However, no Irish version has been officially adopted,[2] the state does not hold the copyright to any Irish version,[13] and Ó Rinn, unlike Kearney and Heeney's estate, never received royalties.[2] A memorandum in the Department of the Taoiseach on 5 April 1958 discussed five distinct Irish translations, noting that Ó Rinn's was the best known; it suggested that, if it were to be officially endorsed, the spelling and grammar should be standardised and the words "Fianna Fáil" changed to "laochra Fáil" to avoid party-political associations.[19] Maureen O'Sullivan likewise favoured changing to "laochra Fáil".[30]

Yiikes

Un Croissant wrote: »

My primary school teachers told us hedge schools were literally in hedges, with the pupils and teachers being on the run from the British. Not the case

.... my understanding of our history has been shaken.

Carlos Orange

Karl Stein wrote: »

So you're also hostile to mathematics, history, French or whatever other subject that was forced upon you as a kid?

All of those subjects I picked when they were optional. None of them a presupposed to be part of my identity.

I did Latin in first year. It was supposed to be optional after that but they made it mandatory (presumably due to low numbers). The class was noticeably worse behaved than other classes with identical students. I don't suppose we picked up a life long dislike of Latin but then Latin isn't a government mandated part of living in Ireland.

deBop

Personally, I'm hopeless at the anthem and I don't see much of a point in learning it myself. There's much more to being Irish than knowing the anthem. We were never thought the anthem in school and most people I know don't even know what it's called but we've been taught what the flag means which is a lot more important IMO. I'd hate if we went down the whole American patriotic route.
That said, I don't have much issues with Amhrán na bhFiann and I don't really see why we should change it except for maybe making the English version official also. (or is it already?)
There seems to be a lot of language snobbery on both sides though... I think the government has handled Irish all wrong, most incentives to learn Irish have been brought about by ordinary people while the government hardly encouraged people by forcing it down their throats but this is a bit off-topic.

Stojkovic wrote: »

Yes but its not widely taught that the likes of Wolte Tone, Robert Emmett etc were Protestant.

We were all thought that at school.

Un Croissant

Yiikes wrote: »

.... my understanding of our history has been shaken.

Not sure if you're serious but I actually felt betrayed by my primary educators after learning that an awful lot of the stuff I was taught didn't go down as indicated.

KingBrian2

Karl Stein wrote: »

So you're also hostile to mathematics, history, French or whatever other subject that was forced upon you as a kid?

People hate those subjects. I don't hear anyone hating Sciences such as Medicine, Chemistry, Physics or Astrology, Archaeology, Palaeontology or Engineering.

People don't complain about Architecture or Physical training.

SweetChaos

The Anthem is not taught properly at least for me any way all through primary school I can recall only singing it once with the teacher standing around a poster with the lyrics on it dont remember secondary school teaching it only after big events in the school did everyone sing it

I taught myself the anthem because I felt I was the only one that didn't know it and was embarrassed but there is a lot of people the same

There is nothing wrong with our anthem it just needs to be sang more often in the schools and take a bit more pride in it

Karl Stein

psinno wrote: »

You claimed people who dislike the Irish language have an inferiority complex.

Here's what I said:

Some people on the thread actively despise the Irish language and suffer from varying degress of cultural cringe.

I would say there's a very strong correlation between actively despising the Irish language and cultural cringe. That's certainly my experience when discussing issues such as this on these fora.

These threads invariably have a subtext of requiring Irish people to have the right language/sport/tv preferences in order to be a proper Irish person.

What am I then? I have no Irish, my favourite sport to watch is Rugby Union, my favourite sport to play is soccer, I watch GAA sports as a neutral..

Usually by calling someone a west brit.

I would say that 'west brit' is a pretty good way of describing a hardcore of Irish people who are hostile to Irish independence and would like to see us back under British rule. I can think of a lot of more 'colourful' words to describe them tbh.

The_Valeyard

KingBrian2 wrote: »

People hate those subjects. I don't hear anyone hating Sciences such as Medicine, Chemistry, Physics or Astrology, Archaeology, Palaeontology or Engineering.

People don't complain about Architecture or Physical training.

Ha! To be fair. I bitched and moaned about physics and chemistry in school, as did 3/4 of the class. Also the book for engineering was ****e, so fair bit of complaining there

Carlos Orange

Karl Stein wrote: »

I would say that 'west brit' is a pretty good way of describing a hardcore of Irish people who are hostile to Irish independence and would like to see us back under British rule. I can think of a lot of more 'colourful' words to describe them tbh.

Where do these magical 'west brits' congregate on the internet?

SparkySpitfire

Karl Stein wrote: »

I would say there's a very strong correlation between actively despising the Irish language and cultural cringe. That's certainly my experience when discussing issues such as this on these fora.

Cultural cringe - great term. I've seen my fair share of that around here myself.

Irelandcool

I like both of the anthems though. I mean sure it is violent but i don't see how that is a problem because lots of things these they contain violence and it doesn't promote violence either. People are just kittens when it comes to anything that seems remotely violent. Besides Ireland has quite the violent history. Don't get me wrong im not some IRA, sinn feinn because I hate politicians in general.

Karl Stein

psinno wrote: »

All of those subjects I picked when they were optional.

Well the fact that Irish is compulsory is a different issue to the NA being sung in Irish. I wouldn't know enough about it to form a strong opinion either way on whether Irish should be mandatory or optional but I do strongly believe the state should actively promote it.

mg1982

People dont seem to realise, the reason we have irelands call is because we are playing as the island of ireland not the republic of ireland. Amhran Na Bhian does not represent players from north of the border so irelands call is something we can both sing. I admit its not a great song though but its a good deal livelier than amhran na bhian.

Karl Stein

SparkySpitfire wrote: »

Cultural cringe - great term.

It's recognised in the fields of cultural studies and social anthropology and is closely linked to the 'colonial mentality'.

A Colonial mentality [...] essentially refers to the acceptance, by the colonized, of the culture or doctrines of the colonizer as intrinsically more worthy or superior.

wikipedia.org

Stojkovic

Karl Stein wrote: »

I would say that 'west brit' is a pretty good way of describing a hardcore of Irish people who are hostile to Irish independence and would like to see us back under British rule. I can think of a lot of more 'colourful' words to describe them tbh.

Would these be the same 'West Brits' who spat at 'our heroes' as they were marched to Kilmainham Gaol and only changed allegiences after the executions ?

Wacker The Attacker

Time to make a deep house version.

Especially for the tour de france and the olympics

SparkySpitfire

Karl Stein wrote: »

It's recognised in the fields of cultural studies and social anthropology and is closely linked to the 'colonial mentality'.

I actually took a sociology module last year about nations and nationality, the concept came up a lot but never the term itself.

That module made me all the more interested when I went to the US this past summer and saw how patriotic a nation can actually be. I was stunned by that.

Carlos Orange

SparkySpitfire wrote: »

Cultural cringe - great term. I've seen my fair share of that around here myself.

I think the only time I have seen it was the time one of my friends (when very drunk) told me of the shame he felt for supporting a team in the English Premier League.

Karl Stein

Stojkovic wrote: »

Would these be the same 'West Brits' who spat at 'our heroes' as they were marched to Kilmainham Gaol and only changed allegiences after the executions ?

We shouldn't hold their lack of vision against them.

feargale

looksee wrote: »

Ireland's call is just embarrasing, getting two goes at an anthem. Unless its against New Zealand, it could be played while they hakka.

No. Until such time as the haka is banned for obvious reasons, our boys should do an Irish jig while it's in progress. They certainly shouldn't stand there silently and respectfully as if it were the national anthem,

Was teaching what national anthem meant during the week and the kids and Vietnamese teacher were shocked I didn't know it. Had to explain this whole concept of a language we all learn but no one can use. Try actually explaining it to someone and it all sinks in just how retarded it is.

Peregrine

KingBrian2 wrote: »

People hate those subjects. I don't hear anyone hating Sciences such as Medicine, Chemistry, Physics or Astrology, Archaeology, Palaeontology or Engineering.

People don't complain about Architecture or Physical training.

A science? I think not!

For future reference:

dd972

''A Colonial mentality [...] essentially refers to the acceptance, by the colonized, of the culture or doctrines of the colonizer as intrinsically more worthy or superior.''

Pretty long winded when you could have just typed the words Ruth Dudley-Edwards :pac:

SparkySpitfire

Deleted User wrote: »

Was teaching what national anthem meant during the week and the kids and Vietnamese teacher were shocked I didn't know it. Had to explain this whole concept of a language we all learn but no one can use. Try actually explaining it to someone and it all sinks in just how retarded it is.

Here no offence, but I can sing songs in French, Japanese, Latin and Swahili. I have a mild knowledge of French but zero of the others. Not knowing the language is no reason for not knowing the song. That's such a cop out excuse when the majority of people who know the words and can sing them wouldn't be able to string together a sentence as Gaeilge anyway.

Eugene Norman

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Was teaching what national anthem meant during the week and the kids and Vietnamese teacher were shocked I didn't know it. Had to explain this whole concept of a language we all learn but no one can use. Try actually explaining it to someone and it all sinks in just how retarded it is.

Maybe they were amazed that you could learn a language but not a verse in that language.

I still say we should use a dual language version though.

KingBrian2

KingBrian2 wrote: »

People don't complain about Physical training.

They clearly aren't doing it right then

Karl Stein

dd972 wrote: »

Ruth Dudley-Edwards :pac:

That creature is a perfect example of it. Look at the type of utter sycophancy she vomits up:

We've come to regret the destruction of the big houses and are gradually recognising that the despised landlord class left us a magnificent legacy.

Ruth Dudley Edwards

Speak for yourself you pathetic West Brit moron. My only regret is that we didn't burn the bastards out sooner.

RobertKK

Our national anthem is fine. Learned the words in primary school, as well as learning how to play it on a tin whistle, and on the keyboard.

Ireland's call is what we need to make disappear.

tomwaterford

RobertKK wrote: »

Our national anthem is fine. Learned the words in primary school, as well as learning how to play it on a tin whistle, and on the keyboard.

Ireland's call is what we need to make disappear.

Irelands call is one of the few things that visiably angers me:mad::mad:

I know the thinking behind it alright...but jesus what a whole heap of condensending rubbish to stoop to

Jawgap

The anthem is boring - it's a dirge.

You'd really think a country like ours with it's wealth of musical talent could come up with something better.

Mise Eire by Sean O'Riada would get my vote if someone could put words to it (not the Pearse poem!)

As for Ireland's Call - I wish someone would put it out of our misery - what a rank piece of music.

whisky_galore

tomwaterford wrote: »

Irelands call is one of the few things that visiably angers me:mad::mad:

I know the thinking behind it alright...but jesus what a whole heap of condensending rubbish to stoop to

Worst example of colour-by-numbers songwriting ever.

whisky_galore

psinno wrote: »

Where do these magical 'west brits' congregate on the internet?

Devon and Cornwall Forums.

CrabRevolution

As far as I can see the problem with Ireland's call is that it was just written, put out there and people told "this is your sporting anthem now".

Most national anthems are just written first as patriotic songs either during a struggle or in praise of a leader. People then pick them up and find the song powerful and fitting, the song becomes popular and inspiring. Later it gets officially adopted as the national anthem as it is already effectively the song of their country.

Writing a song explicitly for the purpose of being a national anthem just doesn't seem to have the same effect. You cant just write a song, hand it over to people and say "this is now your anthem, be inspired by it".

Those who complain about nationalism in a national anthem are missing the point by such a comically massive degree that I think they must be taking the piss.

_Kaiser_

Might have already been said, but the Soviet anthemn was class!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U06jlgpMtQs

Would suggest we license/steal it but then they might want it back again with the way things are going in Russia these days

Chris Martin

I'm English living in Ireland, nothing against countries having national anthems but there's definitely some better ones out there, really wish English would change their heap of ****e though. Like the French one actually..
Need to be pretty patriotic to get anything out of God Save the Queen..

ricero

Give it a lash jack is my national anthem

The_Valeyard

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Might have already been said, but the Soviet anthemn was class!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U06jlgpMtQs

Would suggest we license/steal it but then they might want it back again with the way things are going in Russia these days

Think its the same anthem now as then, just changed the lyrics.

Jawgap

As soon as the Shinners get in, this will be the new national anthem - we might as well start learning it now :pac:

Let morning shine on the silver and gold green of this land,

Three thousand leagues packed with natural wealth.

My beautiful fatherland.

The glory of a wise people

Brought up in a culture brilliant

With a history five millennia long.

Let us devote our bodies and minds

To supporting this Korea Ireland forever.


The firm will, bonded with truth,

Nest for the spirit of labour,

Embracing the atmosphere of Mount Paektu Croagh Patrick,

Will go forth to all the world.

The country established by the will of the people,

Breasting the raging waves with soaring strength.

Let us glorify forever this Korea Ireland,

Limitlessly rich and strong.

(has kind of Star Warsy feel to the start.....)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjV2EErPHdg

feargale

Jawgap wrote: »

As soon as the Shinners get in, this will be the new national anthem - we might as well start learning it now :pac:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjV2EErPHdg

Have you consulted our Dear Leader Gerry?

Jawgap

feargale wrote: »

Have you consulted our Dear Leader Gerry?

No need - I'm sure this thread has already been brought to his attention and my IP address has been duly logged........as has yours :D:D

Iwasfrozen

CrabRevolution wrote: »

As far as I can see the problem with Ireland's call is that it was just written, put out there and people told "this is your sporting anthem now".

Most national anthems are just written first as patriotic songs either during a struggle or in praise of a leader. People then pick them up and find the song powerful and fitting, the song becomes popular and inspiring. Later it gets officially adopted as the national anthem as it is already effectively the song of their country.

Writing a song explicitly for the purpose of being a national anthem just doesn't seem to have the same effect. You cant just write a song, hand it over to people and say "this is now your anthem, be inspired by it".

Those who complain about nationalism in a national anthem are missing the point by such a comically massive degree that I think they must be taking the piss.

The national anthem should reflect the priorities of the country. If war or praise of a leader is what inspires someone they really need to re evaluate their priorities in life.

Sheep Lover

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

The national anthem should reflect the priorities of the country. If war or praise of a leader is what inspires someone they really need to re evaluate their priorities in life.

So Irelands anthem should revolve around property and the weather? Can't see it being a winner if I'm honest.

Eugene Norman

Sheep Lover wrote: »

So Irelands anthem should revolve around property and the weather? Can't see it being a winner if I'm honest.

Drinkers are we, who pledge our livers to Arthur.

Iwasfrozen

Sheep Lover wrote: »

So Irelands anthem should revolve around property and the weather? Can't see it being a winner if I'm honest.

And water charges. Anything is better than our current militaristic nonsense.

Eugene Norman

Jawgap wrote: »

The anthem is boring - it's a dirge.

You'd really think a country like ours with it's wealth of musical talent could come up with something better.

Mise Eire by Sean O'Riada would get my vote if someone could put words to it (not the Pearse poem!)

As for Ireland's Call - I wish someone would put it out of our misery - what a rank piece of music.

Good call. Good tune. I've often thought english teams need to drop the British national anthem and sing Jerusalem.

Eugene Norman

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

And water charges. Anything is better than our current militaristic nonsense.

We should copy the other great non militaristic anthems with their strong opposition to violence and patriotism. It's time we moved on.

Eugene Norman

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

We had a zealous headmaster who told us a person would be killed for being catholic!

The level of anti British propaganda in Irish schools can be ridiculous.

That was true of priests for a long time. Hardly propoganda.

Iwasfrozen

Eugene Norman wrote: »

We should copy the other great non militaristic anthems with their strong opposition to violence and patriotism. It's time we moved on.

Or we could be progressive rather than blindly follow the lead of other countries.