Liable for wear and tear

colossus-x

I rented a flat from a landlord for a year and a half. I was given notice and moved out but the landlord looks likely to subtract from my deposit the cost of what she calls 'breakages'. I wont bore you all with all the specifics but I maintain that all the breakages are general 'wear and tear'.

I had a lease for a year which did state I had to alert her of breakages that needed seeing too. I didn't do that for the minor things like the toilet seat falling off etc BECAUSE whenever I asked for do anything I really wanted doing it was like trying to pull water from a stone. She fobbed me off and to give one example the washing machine never worked properly for the 18 months I was there. There was not enough water pressure and every time I did a washing I had to fill it up with a hosepipe myself. She did have someone look at it but in my opinion always knew from the beginning what the problem was and had no intention of fixing it cause it would cost too much.

On one occasion when I went to pay my rent in the shop she owned downstairs she said to me "Oh I hope your not coming to me with another problem". I never came to her with problems continually and she deliberately made herself unapproachable which is EXACTLY why I didn't go to her with a list of the trivial fixes that needed doing - what she is now going to charge me for. Also in making herself unapproachable she would adopt this 'headmistress' like manner and talk to me as if I was a member of her staff - one of her 'girls'. She was so rude to me when I went down to the shop to collect my mail - she would see me - grab the mail and point it to me with outreached arms and say absolutely nothing, as If I were to say anything it would unnecessarily unset her customers in the shop. So incredibly rude I think I was actually stunned into sclience.

Now I think she is also going to charge me for things that were broken before I moved in like the fridge ice-box door which was broken at the lever but would actually stay on. When I departed I cleaned the place top to bottom and left it in a cleaner state than I found it.

I have never had a problem with a landlord in my life untill now, in fact all my previous landlords were all coincidentally female and all fantastic. I have never had my deposit not returned to me and never left a property without cleaning all the presses and fridge/cooker etc.

I think I know what response I am going to get here but I just had to get if off my chest. I could have just put it in writing to her what was needed fixing. I didnt take the lease small print seriously because I always had very good landlords in the past. I'll never let a landlord get the better of me this way again that's for sure but I'm sure there are not many like her.

The_Conductor

Simple.
Document all of this- and lodge a PRTB case.
It may take a while- but any unreasonable wear-and-tear, will be taken from the sum she is trying to lump on you.

For the record- a broken toilet seat- most certainly is not normal wear and tear- and if it happened- normally a tenant would replace/repair it, at a very minimum to the standard it was in before commencing the tenancy. Toilet seats don't normally break.

MarkAnthony

The_Conductor wrote: »

For the record- a broken toilet seat- most certainly is not normal wear and tear- and if it happened- normally a tenant would replace/repair it, at a very minimum to the standard it was in before commencing the tenancy. Toilet seats don't normally break.

Meh, think that might be a little harsh, they don't in a well maintained rental, or even a cheap and cheerful one but it sounds like the OP was in some sort of crapbox above a shop where the LL doesn't give a crap (no pun intended).

That said I'd have bought a new one when I moved in.

colossus-x

I didn't want to focus on any one of the broken items ( there were a few ) but since the chat is now on the toilet seat let me say it was in half-on half-off condition from day one. It was made of timber, looked water damaged and rusty like at the bowel connectors , and dirty. When it finally broke off completely i was delighted as it was much more hygienic and easier to clean at the back and since I was the only occupant I wasn't bothered about the lid.

MarkAnthony wrote: »

Meh, think that might be a little harsh, they don't in a well maintained rental, or even a cheap and cheerful one but it sounds like the OP was in some sort of crapbox above a shop where the LL doesn't give a crap (no pun intended).

That said I'd have bought a new one when I moved in.

Haha well that's a rather good description although I didn't want to say myself. It wasn't THAT bad but it did have it's peculiarity like the cupboards and kitchen surfaces that were all at an ever so slight angle so stuff could slide off. This was really annoying on the cooker, id have to make sure the handles of the pans were pointed inwards or it might slide off. For the same reason one of the tall hanging wardrobes started tipping over on top of me when I put a quality of close in it, changing the center of gravity lol
The kitchen cabinets were really old and would get dirty very easily and the cooker looked like from the early 80's but everything did work, it wasn't like a dingy bedsit. The worst thing was there was only one storage heater in the joint kitchen/living room. It just wouldn't heat the upstairs bedroom or bathroom which were simply arctic in winter necessitating me to sleep in the living room. Honestly the other rooms were so cold I felt I was actually outside when I wanted to use them. The storage heater was good though in the living room.

Anyway I have since moved into a new flat , sheer luxury in comparison and the only one thing in disrepair is - the toilet seat again . But it's not a big deal at least it's clean and modern. I could prolly fix this one myself.

The_Conductor wrote: »

Simple.

For the record- a broken toilet seat- most certainly is not normal wear and tear- and if it happened- normally a tenant would replace/repair it, at a very minimum to the standard it was in before commencing the tenancy. Toilet seats don't normally break.

I can't believe you seriously believer that - a toilet seat is but a bit of plastic with some sort of lever mechanisms, you don't seriously believe that that would just last forever. Of course they are meant to be replaced - they are designed that way. I'm flabbergasted you said that really.

Mrs OBumble

Toilet seats might break about once every 10 years. And if yours does break, you either fix it yourself (not actually that difficult) or get the LL to fix it.

You don't just leave it for the LL to discover when you move out.

MarkAnthony

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Toilet seats might break about once every 10 years. And if yours does break, you either fix it yourself (not actually that difficult) or get the LL to fix it.

You don't just leave it for the LL to discover when you move out.

Again, harsh if you ask me. Having met many, many wagons and arseholes in relation to 'business owners' I can see why the OP would not be inclined to fix something where the LL can't be arsed to maintain the property and also why the OP might have given up reporting things.

The_Conductor

MarkAnthony wrote: »

Again, harsh if you ask me. Having met many, many wagons and arseholes in relation to 'business owners' I can see why the OP would not be inclined to fix something where the LL can't be arsed to maintain the property and also why the OP might have given up reporting things.

Certainly- the landlord does sound completely and utterly unreasonable.
However, irrespective of how reasonable or unreasonable the landlord might be-you would be damn hard pressed to argue that a broken toilet seat is 'normal wear and tear'. That is the point I made.

I'd like to reiterate- the OP should lodge a PRTB claim for unreasonable retention of the deposit, or part thereof. I wouldn't expect the toilet seat to be recompensed- however, from the little the OP has told us- I imagine there will probably be a long and varied list of other items that have been unjustly deducted from the deposit.

Line up your ducks and shoot them.......

paulheu

Recently moved and I documented _everything_ I found out of the ordinary and presented it to the landlord with photos. Some things I can live/deal with , but want to make sure they are aware of these and have them on file as being existing when I moved in. Others I wanted fixed.

As I have a professional landlord it was all handled quickly and completely. Washing machine broke and had a new one next day, window not closing correctly, appointment made for replacement week after and so on.

Now, OP states:
"I have never had a problem with a landlord in my life untill now, in fact all my previous landlords were all coincidentally female and all fantastic. I have never had my deposit not returned to me and never left a property without cleaning all the presses and fridge/cooker etc."


You have had a problem with your landlord in this case from the beginning it sounds like. Did she even register you with PRTB? I am guessing not. You are saying she received your mail in the shop? You did not have a mailbox yourself? Frankly this has disaster written all over and I'm not sure why you are even surprised.

I find it at best odd you come here and complain about being charged for 'breakages' and then not specify, this makes your claim questionable to me.

To be honest, I can understand that your landlord would not appreciate you coming in to the shop and to bring up anything relating to the letting. Did you ever try and make an appointment for you and her to meet at a more convenient time and go over things?

Are you the only tenant she had and how much do you think she collected over time in total? Seems your only option here is report here for tax evasion if applicable since she collected cash, did you keep a rent book and/or were you given receipts? Why were you given notice?

There's just too many questions here to go either way..

hfallada

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Toilet seats might break about once every 10 years. And if yours does break, you either fix it yourself (not actually that difficult) or get the LL to fix it.

You don't just leave it for the LL to discover when you move out.

My parents are LL. Tbh you are lucky to get more than a few years out of a toilet seat. Urine rots the metal and the hinges snap when they are rusted(obviously an issue guys). My parents have brought anything from €4 to €40 toilet seats. They all pretty much last the same time as the metals rusts.

My parents replace toilet seats for free with no issues. You can expect them to last for ever

Gumbo

colossus-x wrote: »

I can't believe you seriously believer that - a toilet seat is but a bit of plastic with some sort of lever mechanisms, you don't seriously believe that that would just last forever. Of course they are meant to be replaced - they are designed that way. I'm flabbergasted you said that really.

I think we all know what a toilet seat is. I'm in my house since October 2006, the same toilet seats are on the toilets since day one that the builders put on. They will last once treated like your own.

Mrs OBumble

hfallada wrote: »

My parents are LL. Tbh you are lucky to get more than a few years out of a toilet seat. Urine rots the metal and the hinges snap when they are rusted(obviously an issue guys).

I'm a LL and a tenant.

The toilet seat in my rental has been here for 7+ years (and a guy living here for 6 of those years) with no problems.

And it seems that my property manager is doing a good job of choosing tenants who know that you p*ss in it, not at it.

Stheno

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

I'm a LL and a tenant.

The toilet seat in my rental has been here for 7+ years (and a guy living here for 6 of those years) with no problems.

And it seems that my property manager is doing a good job of choosing tenants who know that you p*ss in it, not at it.

I live with a partner who cannot aim in the toilet bowl, regular cleaning once a week keeps the toilet seat safe and it's in place six years.

El_Duderino 09

I know this isn't about toilet seats but I've wondered about who's responsibility it is to replace them.

I've replaced them in 2 of the 3 places I've rented. I've always thought it was, strictly speaking, a fixture rather than a portable item belonging to the tenant.
While they can last year's, they might last months without anyone misusing it in any way. I mean apart from using it to slam on someone's head, ala Bruce Willis, how would you even misuse a toilet seat?

I think it is a fixture and must be a ll issue but I personally would just deal with it myself rather than bother my ll. Point is that you can't really install a toilet seat on day one and expect tenants to replace them for ever more.

cerastes

colossus-x wrote: »

I rented a flat from a landlord for a year and a half. I was given notice and moved out but the landlord looks likely to subtract from my deposit the cost of what she calls 'breakages'. I wont bore you all with all the specifics but I maintain that all the breakages are general 'wear and tear'.

I had a lease for a year which did state I had to alert her of breakages that needed seeing too. I didn't do that for the minor things like the toilet seat falling off etc BECAUSE whenever I asked for do anything I really wanted doing it was like trying to pull water from a stone. She fobbed me off and to give one example the washing machine never worked properly for the 18 months I was there. There was not enough water pressure and every time I did a washing I had to fill it up with a hosepipe myself. She did have someone look at it but in my opinion always knew from the beginning what the problem was and had no intention of fixing it cause it would cost too much.

On one occasion when I went to pay my rent in the shop she owned downstairs she said to me "Oh I hope your not coming to me with another problem". I never came to her with problems continually and she deliberately made herself unapproachable which is EXACTLY why I didn't go to her with a list of the trivial fixes that needed doing - what she is now going to charge me for. Also in making herself unapproachable she would adopt this 'headmistress' like manner and talk to me as if I was a member of her staff - one of her 'girls'. She was so rude to me when I went down to the shop to collect my mail - she would see me - grab the mail and point it to me with outreached arms and say absolutely nothing, as If I were to say anything it would unnecessarily unset her customers in the shop. So incredibly rude I think I was actually stunned into sclience.

Now I think she is also going to charge me for things that were broken before I moved in like the fridge ice-box door which was broken at the lever but would actually stay on. When I departed I cleaned the place top to bottom and left it in a cleaner state than I found it.

I have never had a problem with a landlord in my life untill now, in fact all my previous landlords were all coincidentally female and all fantastic. I have never had my deposit not returned to me and never left a property without cleaning all the presses and fridge/cooker etc.

I think I know what response I am going to get here but I just had to get if off my chest. I could have just put it in writing to her what was needed fixing. I didnt take the lease small print seriously because I always had very good landlords in the past. I'll never let a landlord get the better of me this way again that's for sure but I'm sure there are not many like her.

You should bore us with the specifics or some of them anyway.
Also, has the toilet seat fallen off or is it broken?
If its the former then it may easily be replaced back onto the bowl, or if damaged, then it might need to be replaced and genuinley be be fair wear and tear, on the other hand if it was in working condition when you got it and now it isnt due to heavy handedness they might have good reason to bill you.
For example, my parents house, number of children and mainly males, toilet seat lasted 40 years, was plastic, and only replaced as the bathroom was redone.
If its broken, then either it wasnt treated with reasonable care or maybe it was on the way out, but without establishing that during your tenancy or reporting damages doesnt make it any better or easier for you. In a nutshell its not much to even split the cost of to replace, I wouldnt dig my heels in over just that, but maybe if there are a host of problems that you feel you werent repsonisble for you could recover your deposit by suggesting to the landlord that if you dont you dont get back that you would take them to the prtb, that might motivate them to return it, assuming you being genuine.
After that, what you do is up to you, personally I wouldnt bother if I got my money as it (the prtb) is a hassle for anyone.

An example of why deductions may be made. If a litany of genuine breakages exist, that may make a landlord decide to not overlook even trivial things if when you add up all the breakages it establishes that a tenant is heavy handed and they have to do a lot or outlay money to fix it before someone else can move in.
ie where someone might overlook some breakages of delf, like a missing plate or cup, but if everything is broken or is missing or it makes it less usable as so much is damaged, then they may decide to bill you for the full lot as they might not be able to do partial replacements. eg a carpet ripped somewhere will mean the whole carpet would need to be replaced, not the few square cm's of the rip.
Im not saying this is the case, but have you some proof that these items were broken when you moved in? photos or any correspondence?
even if you dont it can be possible to get your deposit back becuase they will equally or more so need proof that they were in a suitable condition when you got them.

Rasmus

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

I'm a LL and a tenant.

The toilet seat in my rental has been here for 7+ years (and a guy living here for 6 of those years) with no problems.

And it seems that my property manager is doing a good job of choosing tenants who know that you p*ss in it, not at it.

I think every place I've rented the toilet seat broke (often rentals come with cheap toilet seats). Every time, we replaced it with a better one and didn't even mention it to the LL. It has never come up. Maybe, your toilet seats have indeed been breaking and the tenants have been replacing them.

Mrs OBumble

Stheno wrote: »

I live with a partner who chooses not to cannot aim in the toilet bowl, regular cleaning once a week keeps the toilet seat safe and it's in place six years.

FYP

bjork

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I know this isn't about toilet seats but I've wondered about who's responsibility it is to replace them.

I've replaced them in 2 of the 3 places I've rented. I've always thought it was, strictly speaking, a fixture rather than a portable item belonging to the tenant.
While they can last year's, they might last months without anyone misusing it in any way. I mean apart from using it to slam on someone's head, ala Bruce Willis, how would you even misuse a toilet seat?

I think it is a fixture and must be a ll issue but I personally would just deal with it myself rather than bother my ll. Point is that you can't really install a toilet seat on day one and expect tenants to replace them for ever more.

Renting on the continent it is one of the few things my landlord is responsible for, surprisingly. They came an replaced it as soon as I moved in. And that's renting a completely unfurnished apartment (no light fittings, floors etc).

Tiger Mcilroy

Op a toilet seat is inexpensive and incredibly easy to fit if you think the LL is going to try and keep a portion of your deposit based on this just replace it.

cerastes

Rasmus wrote: »

I think every place I've rented the toilet seat broke (often rentals come with cheap toilet seats). Every time, we replaced it with a better one and didn't even mention it to the LL. It has never come up. Maybe, your toilet seats have indeed been breaking and the tenants have been replacing them.

every seat, that says something more about you than toilet seats? do you drop them closed every time?
Ive had the same toilet seats for nearly 20 years myself, I broke one last year as I used it as a step to get something high up, where I should have used a chair or a step ladder, its designed to be sat on and not much else, I really cant see how people could do them damage? even cheap ones should last.

bjork wrote: »

Renting on the continent it is one of the few things my landlord is responsible for, surprisingly. They came an replaced it as soon as I moved in. And that's renting a completely unfurnished apartment (no light fittings, floors etc).

I realised places were let unfurnished on the continent, but are you saying they dont even come with toilet seats? and when you say no floors, you mean flooring? so no carpet? lino?, whats the limit you can put down? I presume you might be able to lay a laminate floor? but maybe not tile or heavier engineered wood that needs fixing to the surface with screws or brackets?

bjork

cerastes wrote: »

.....



I realised places were let unfurnished on the continent, but are you saying they dont even come with toilet seats? and when you say no floors, you mean flooring? so no carpet? lino?, whats the limit you can put down? I presume you might be able to lay a laminate floor? but maybe not tile or heavier engineered wood that needs fixing to the surface with screws or brackets?

Toilet seats are about the only thing they do come with!!!


No floors =Cement base >> no lino/carpet/underfloor etc nadda! (except fully tiled bathroom and toilet)
I laid lament flooring with under flooring as required for sound reduction
You can put what ever you want down> Once you can take it up when you leave and leave it back to cement



The management company carried out a snag list before I moved in. came the next day and replaced the toilet seat and the shower hose

cerastes

bjork wrote: »

Toilet seats are about the only thing they do come with!!!


No floors =Cement base >> no lino/carpet/underfloor etc nadda! (except fully tiled bathroom and toilet)
I laid lament flooring with under flooring as required for sound reduction
You can put what ever you want down> Once you can take it up when you leave and leave it back to cement



The management company carried out a snag list before I moved in. came the next day and replaced the toilet seat and the shower hose

where is this? sounds quite ideal.
No fridges, washing machines.
I am sure there must be places that arent so proficient, but it certainly makes the job easier if they have a limited amount to do and as the tnenat can just have what they want and the standard and comfort they like, seems much better way to do things to me.

Much better than what we have, which many tenants are happy to have for the financial reason but either tolerate crappy furnishings through no choice or will throw a fit when they dont like it.
ie we have to supply a microwave, who wants to use a microwave used by how many others?

And of course they foolishly got rid of bedsits, instead of just improving the quality of the existing stock, ie why is a 4 ring hob needed in a one person bedsit, just crazy stupid stuff really.
No thought gone into it and no experience of those making the decisions and then when it all goes pear shaped the tenants and the landlords suffer, but more likely the tenants when the Govt here interferes.

El_Duderino 09

cerastes wrote: »

I really cant see how people could do them damage? even cheap ones should last.

Thinking about it, I reckon it's in the fitting. Either poor manufacture or poor installation puts stress on joints and things wear out.

I suppose it's just something which needs maintenance, but is it the LL's or the tenant's responsibility to do the work?

cerastes

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Thinking about it, I reckon it's in the fitting. Either poor manufacture or poor installation puts stress on joints and things wear out.

I suppose it's just something which needs maintenance, but is it the LL's or the tenant's responsibility to do the work?

My opinion would be, that depends on whether it has fallen off or is broken somehow.
It would also depend on if it was reported or not, if it wasnt a tenants fault originally but they failed to report something, where it created a bigger or other problems or worsened things, then I consider that the tenants fault and responsibility.

El_Duderino 09

cerastes wrote: »

My opinion would be, that depends on whether it has fallen off or is broken somehow.
It would also depend on if it was reported or not, if it wasnt a tenants fault originally but they failed to report something, where it created a bigger or other problems or worsened things, then I consider that the tenants fault and responsibility.

Another poster said they stood on the seat and broke it so that's his responsibility. What about when it just works it's way loose through use and eventually breaks?

So the tenant should report it to the LL like anything else or it's their responsibility if it gets worse. Fair enough I suppose

Stheno

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Another poster said they stood on the seat and broke it so that's his responsibility. What about when it just works it's way loose through use and eventually breaks?

Would you not just tighten the bolts that hold it in place and stop it from coming off first?

El_Duderino 09

Stheno wrote: »

Would you not just tighten the bolts that hold it in place and stop it from coming off first?

Yes I would but I like doing bits and bobs of DIY. I'm just trying to establish who's actual responsibility it is.

cerastes

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Another poster said they stood on the seat and broke it so that's his responsibility. What about when it just works it's way loose through use and eventually breaks?

That was me, it was my fault.
If it works its way loose, it doesnt eventually break, it just comes loose, if you leave it like that and it breaks somehow then its your fault, I dont see how it would break from that.
Generally speaking they dont just come loose readily unless there is a fault with the fitting (plastic screw) but even then they dont just disintegrate from that. From time to time you might have to tighten the plastic nut on the plastic screw though.

Broken suggests, dropped shut or slammed shut and cracked/broke.
Working its way loose, that would usually take a while, during which it would have to be ignored if it eventually broke.

El_Duderino 09

cerastes wrote: »

That was me, it was my fault.
If it works its way loose, it doesnt eventually break, it just comes loose, if you leave it like that and it breaks somehow then its your fault, I dont see how it would break from that.
Generally speaking they dont just come loose readily unless there is a fault with the fitting (plastic screw) but even then they dont just disintegrate from that. From time to time you might have to tighten the plastic nut on the plastic screw though.

Broken suggests, dropped shut or slammed shut and cracked/broke.
Working its way loose, that would usually take a while, during which it would have to be ignored if it eventually broke.

Ok fair enough.

To look at it the other way, under what circumstances would it be a LL's job to maintain/replace it?

cerastes

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Yes I would but I like doing bits and bobs of DIY. I'm just trying to establish who's actual responsibility it is.

It depends, if its just coming loose infrequently then really its a very trivial thing to try and determine who is responsible.
If it comes loose as soon as or not long after its tightened then contact the landlord. If they are the sort to not respond, then a cheap replacement for your sanity and comfort which you can take away with you when you leave is better than trying to find out who is responsible, I prefer not to skid off the toilet on the seat like some kind of snowboard.

El_Duderino 09

cerastes wrote: »

It depends, if its just coming loose infrequently then really its a very trivial thing to try and determine who is responsible.
If it comes loose as soon as or not long after its tightened then contact the landlord. If they are the sort to not respond, then a cheap replacement for your sanity and comfort which you can take away with you when you leave is better than trying to find out who is responsible, I prefer not to skid off the toilet on the seat like some kind of snowboard.

Yeah I'd agree with that.

I'd say most people would just deal with it and save your credibility with the LL for a time when you actually need something done.