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can I ask some questions about owning an Electric car?
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15-02-2015 10:51pm#1the more I hear about these EV's the more id really like one and they are coming down in price and even they are offering a 4,000eur scrappage charge for your own car but I do have a few questions I cannot seem to find answers for:
- When you buy one does the supplier give you a lead you can just plug into a normal 13A socket even if its a slow charging lead?
- are these public charging points in town free or do you have to pay for the electricity and are they likely to remain free to use or will there be a charge later on as electric vehicles get popular?
- When you plug in a lead from one of these public chargers , how are they held in and is there anything to stop a passer by from pulling them out
- how long do they take to charge from these public chargers roughly and what are you supposed to do whilst your waiting for them to charge
- does charging the cars repeatedly even if the battery hasnt got down to empty ruing the batteries or shorten the life of the battery's?
- hows the heater inside work, on electric is it - if so doesnt this really run down the battery? - and does it heat up inside as quick as a normal car
- I see that some manufacturers no include the price of the batterys rather than lease the battery - so how long roughly should the batterys last are we talking years? and what would be better to actually go with a maker that includes the battery in with the price or to lease one - surely leasing one would mean when the battery is exhausted come to the end of its life then its replaced for you so that would be better wouldnt it and no nasty shocks of price to replace the battery wouldnt it be?
- do any of these electric vehicles have any of this technology which charges the batteries when you break like the hybrid cars have?
- Do they all have some kind of noise that makes it sound like a car for other road users or do you just hear a hum/whine?
- What are they like these days, are they still sluggish and is there enough ooomph for driving uphill and overtaking? - any flat spots at certain speeds?
- do they give you a fair enough warning in plenty of time that the battery is getting near to empty - or can they go from being high power showing one minute to very low to empty the next minute like the battery bar on your mobile phone!!
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Andy From Sligo wrote: »the more I hear about these EV's the more id really like one and they are coming down in price and even they are offering a 4,000eur scrappage charge for your own car but I do have a few questions I cannot seem to find answers for:
- When you buy one does the supplier give you a lead you can just plug into a normal 13A socket even if its a slow charging lead?
I dont know of any dealer in ROI providing a granny cable. The standard slow charger for connection to the public network (and to an ESB installed home charger) is usually provided A granny cable costs about €700- are these public charging points in town free or do you have to pay for the electricity and are they likely to remain free to use or will there be a charge later on as electric vehicles get popular?
Currently free, payment likely to be introduced in 2016. Paying for this service will be a good way to ration usage and increase availability- When you plug in a lead from one of these public chargers , how are they held in and is there anything to stop a passer by from pulling them out
You are issued a swipe card. You swipe the card to commence charging and must swipe the card again to release the cable. The cable can still be removed from the car, unless you have it locked at that end- how long do they take to charge from these public chargers roughly and what are you supposed to do whilst your waiting for them to charge
Thats going to depend on a lot of factors - generally you'd get an 80% charge from a fast charger in 30 minutes
Not an expert on this and I think the jury is still out, perhaps someone else can advise- does charging the cars repeatedly even if the battery hasnt got down to empty ruing the batteries or shorten the life of the battery's?
Yes, it runs down the battery. Heating up is very fast unlike an ICE where the heat comes off the engine- hows the heater inside work, on electric is it - if so doesnt this really run down the battery? - and does it heat up inside as quick as a normal car
Its going to depend on how the battery is treated and how much fast charging you do. As regards battery replacement under a lease, you would need to check the supplier T&Cs they only gurarantee a minimum battery performance, say 70% and replace sufficient cells to get you above this- I see that some manufacturers no include the price of the batterys rather than lease the battery - so how long roughly should the batterys last are we talking years? and what would be better to actually go with a maker that includes the battery in with the price or to lease one - surely leasing one would mean when the battery is exhausted come to the end of its life then its replaced for you so that would be better wouldnt it and no nasty shocks of price to replace the battery wouldnt it be?
All have regenerative braking- do any of these electric vehicles have any of this technology which charges the batteries when you break like the hybrid cars have?
- Do they all have some kind of noise that makes it sound like a car for other road users or do you just hear a hum/whine?
The Leaf makes a whine below 30KMH, which you can turn off, dont know about others
In non-eco mode you get maximum torque when starting off, but there is still plenty for overtaking at higher speeds in my opinion. Driving an electire car may well change your driving style making you more aware of energy consumptionm, so this is not generally a concern- What are they like these days, are they still sluggish and is there enough ooomph for driving uphill and overtaking? - any flat spots at certain speeds?
The leaf has a battery % which is pretty reliable as well as expected remaining range which is pretty unreliable. The navigation will advise if you are unlikely to reach your destination on current charge and will direct you to nearest charge point- do they give you a fair enough warning in plenty of time that the battery is getting near to empty - or can they go from being high power showing one minute to very low to empty the next minute like the battery bar on your mobile phone!!
I wonder if anyone can answer these questions if you have any time to kill pls0 -
This make "They" a Nissan Leaf. Just for completeness.Andy From Sligo wrote: »the more I hear about these EV's the more id really like one and they are coming down in price and even they are offering a 4,000eur scrappage charge
No they don't. It is standard in the UK but in Ireland it's an expensive extra. A third-party granny cable can set you back €400+Andy From Sligo wrote: »When you buy one does the supplier give you a lead you can just plug into a normal 13A socket even if its a slow charging lead?
They won't remain free but since ESB can't seem to get the IT infrastructure in place to monitor usage I suspect this won't happen for another while. The result is that there are a lot of Leaf queues in certain areas. Naas and Park Point, Dublin to name 2.Andy From Sligo wrote: »[*]are these public charging points in town free or do you have to pay for the electricity and are they likely to remain free to use or will there be a charge later on as electric vehicles get popular?
They are locked into place and need your card to unlock them. Mind you, I belief the Leaf can be unplugged from the car side if the lock isn't engaged. This lock only exists on the newer Leafs (131 and newer). The older ones don't have it as far as I know. I have heard about people using padlocks for this.Andy From Sligo wrote: »When you plug in a lead from one of these public chargers , how are they held in and is there anything to stop a passer by from pulling them out
The Nissan Leaf will charge to full in about 8 hours. Unless you have the optional 6kW upgrade (€900 I believe) which will allow you to charge up in 4 hours. Fast chargers (and there are a lot less of them then you may think) will charge the Leaf to 80% in about 30 minutes. Or a bit longer in cold weather.Andy From Sligo wrote: »how long do they take to charge from these public chargers roughly and what are you supposed to do whilst your waiting for them to charge
My Renault Zoe will charge to 80% in 1 hour at most public charge points and full in about 1 hour 20 minutes. On a AC fast charger this time is halved to 30 minutes and about 45 minutes.
What you are supposed to do during charging is your business but I would suggest not leaving the car beyond the time it takes to charge. In high volume areas you could be blocking the charger for others.
No it doesn't. The biggest killer for battery life is temperature. If you do a lot of deep charges (empty to passed 80% on a warm day) you will overheat the battery.The impact this will have on your battery is dependent on use. Treat it well and it will outlast the car. All batteries will degrade over time. Nissan recons most will take 10 years to reach 70% so depending on how long you want to own the car it won't matter to most.Andy From Sligo wrote: »does charging the cars repeatedly even if the battery hasnt got down to empty ruing the batteries or shorten the life of the battery's?
Running the heater uses battery. How this impacts on your range will depend on your car. I find my Renault Zoe has a great heater. The AC eats battery but the heater is fairly efficient. Since the heater is electric the heat is instant and not waiting for an engine to warm up.Andy From Sligo wrote: »hows the heater inside work, on electric is it - if so doesnt this really run down the battery? - and does it heat up inside as quick as a normal car
A new battery for a Nissan Leaf will set you back about €6000. That is a good number of years of a lease price. Renault will "repair or replace" any battery that drops below 75%. When this will happen is anyones guess. Think they did it more to prevent people from worrying about batteries breaking than anything else. In my view, I see it as prepayment for a new battery. The lease also makes the Zoe about €5 - 6000 cheaper than the Leaf. But it is a different segment car. Zoe is a mini, Leaf a family hatchback. In the UK Nissan and Renault offer their Leaf and Zoe with either option (lease or buy the batteries) and I think this would make sense in Ireland as well.Andy From Sligo wrote: »I see that some manufacturers no include the price of the batterys rather than lease the battery - so how long roughly should the batterys last are we talking years? and what would be better to actually go with a maker that includes the battery in with the price or to lease one - surely leasing one would mean when the battery is exhausted come to the end of its life then its replaced for you so that would be better wouldnt it and no nasty shocks of price to replace the battery wouldnt it be?
Yes, they all do.Andy From Sligo wrote: »do any of these electric vehicles have any of this technology which charges the batteries when you break like the hybrid cars have?
Zoe has one that is nice and loud. Also 3 different noises you can choose from. All sound weird and I don't believe people associate the noise with a car. I turn mine off unless I am in an estate or car park. It comes back on when you restart the car.Andy From Sligo wrote: »Do they all have some kind of noise that makes it sound like a car for other road users or do you just hear a hum/whine?
Still sluggish? Ever driven one? Obviously not... All have instant acceleration and the top end EVs like the Tesla Model S will out accelerate most ICE car. The power curve is linear so you have full acceleration at any legal speed. No gears means this is really the best thing about EV driving.. Taking off like a rocket at the lightsAndy From Sligo wrote: »What are they like these days, are they still sluggish and is there enough ooomph for driving uphill and overtaking? - any flat spots at certain speeds?
My Renault Zoe is accurate to about 5 -10 kms range on my regular drives. When I drove the Leaf I found the estimated range to be a bit jumpy. Showing the % display calmed me down a bit. I know what Zoe is capable of and have never been caught out by surprise. The way you drive makes a big impact and this will change when you have the car for a while. I don't have any range anxiety any more. I will be taking mine to Holland on May 30th. Then I might have a few anxiety moments as I will be driving somewhere new. Since there are plenty of chargers along the way I should be fineAndy From Sligo wrote: »do they give you a fair enough warning in plenty of time that the battery is getting near to empty - or can they go from being high power showing one minute to very low to empty the next minute like the battery bar on your mobile phone!!
You're welcome...Andy From Sligo wrote: »I wonder if anyone can answer these questions if you have any time to kill pls0 -
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Factors helping in winter driving:
- vehicle dynamic control system,
- balanced weight distribution with low centre of gravity,
- light front forward motor.
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Andy From Sligo wrote: »[*]When you buy one does the supplier give you a lead you can just plug into a normal 13A socket even if its a slow charging lead?
No, the excuse is that the ESB told Nissan it wouldn't be a good idea in Ireland to give out the granny cable because it might over load the wiring.Andy From Sligo wrote: »[*]are these public charging points in town free or do you have to pay for the electricity and are they likely to remain free to use or will there be a charge later on as electric vehicles get popular?
Free for now but the idea is that you use them when you need to and charge at home when you don't because using the charge points for free electricity means you're taking up a charge point for someone who needs one, just think, some day you might actually "need" to charge up and someone could be there charging just for the free electricity. Sooner the ESB start charging imo the better.Andy From Sligo wrote: »[*]When you plug in a lead from one of these public chargers , how are they held in and is there anything to stop a passer by from pulling them out
Regarding the leaf, the plug is locked either end. Not sure about the rest.Andy From Sligo wrote: »[*]how long do they take to charge from these public chargers roughly and what are you supposed to do whilst your waiting for them to charge
You'll never arrive with a completely dead battery but the Leaf with standard charger takes 8 hours 0-100% with the upgraded 6.6 kw charger this is 4 hrs.
I was highly glad to spend the extra 900 on the more powerful charger in the leaf because in 3 weeks of ownership I topped up at 2 non fast charge points and got back 20% in less than an hour, a 2 hr charge will replace about 50%.
This meant I did not have to find and wait at a fast charge point, the car had sufficient charge to get me home. Unlike the standard 3kw charger in the Leaf which meant I would have had to find a fast charge point. The standard charge points are also much better for the battery as they don't charge so fast meaning it won;t heat up the battery nearly as much. Always think the fastest way to accelerate battery degradation is heat, while Ireland isn't the hottest place it's still warm enough for fast charging to have a big impact over time. If your battery is 20 Degrees C from sitting in the sun then fast charging just once can bring the temp to 35 Degrees C in the space of 20-25 Mins.
This is relating to the Nissan leaf because at this time there is no data from any other EV to suggest fast charging gets the battery hot because they're too new.
The Renault Zoe can charge from most standard charge points 0-80% in one hour. It's got the most powerful charger on-board of any EV in the world.Andy From Sligo wrote: »[*]does charging the cars repeatedly even if the battery hasnt got down to empty ruing the batteries or shorten the life of the battery's?
The idea is that you don't run the battery down too low. Shallow charges are always much better on any lithium battery including your phone, tablet etc.
For instance 30%-70% rather than <10-100%Andy From Sligo wrote: »[*]hows the heater inside work, on electric is it - if so doesnt this really run down the battery? - and does it heat up inside as quick as a normal car
Within 1 mins the Leaf with heat pump blows out warm air and hot by about 2 mins.
The heater consumes most energy at initial warm up, could pull about 3.5 Kw or a bit more. The idea is that you pre heat the car while hooked up to the mains to reduce the impact of the initial warm up.
On the road I find with the heat pump the consumption is about ,500-about 800 watts, this is pretty efficient. The heat pump works best above 4 degrees C below this there is a lot less heat in the atmosphere for the heat pump to work more efficiently. I find the heater will have an impact but far less than driving at speed. Obviously the motor is the highest consuming device in the car and the faster you go the more power you use to slice through the air.Andy From Sligo wrote: »[*]I see that some manufacturers no include the price of the batterys rather than lease the battery - so how long roughly should the batterys last are we talking years? and what would be better to actually go with a maker that includes the battery in with the price or to lease one - surely leasing one would mean when the battery is exhausted come to the end of its life then its replaced for you so that would be better wouldnt it and no nasty shocks of price to replace the battery wouldnt it be?
How long the battery lasts is not easy to answer, it depends on a whole lot of things.
How many times the battery is cycled, (charged, discharged) Time, (Called calender life) how hard you drive, how many times you fast charge to the point the battery gets hot and how long it stays hot, how long you keep it at a high state of charge while it's hot.
Heat is the biggest killer, Nissan did not include some kind of cooling for the battery and it heats up quickly on the fast charger, not such an issue in the winter except if charging more than once in a day. In summer a battery that's already at 20 degrees C can be as high as 35 deg C after one fast charge, beyond this degradation will accelerate especially if you do this a lot.
No other data exists for any other EV at this time to see if fast charging is of such an issue. The VW E-golf, BMW I3, Kia Soul etc all have different batteries and may not heat up as much at all and may last longer in general, no one knows yet.
Battery degradation is one thing , but how long before it becomes a burden is another matter. For instance, say a taxi driver who does lots of small local trips and may need to fast charge 3 times a day looses 30% capacity after 5 years ( this is just a guess) if his trips are only 5-10 miles give or take then the battery could last him 10-15 years. He will have to fast charge more often as the battery ages.
If the range on a new battery in winter in the leaf gives about 60-70 miles winter range then -30% capacity this could mean 42-50 miles and at this you'd want to be close enough to a charge point.
If you can charge at work, Luas etc then the battery will still be usable and can still continue to do useful mileage.
As more electric cars come out in the next few years with more range then there will be a lot less stress on the battery and we won;t be worried about battery degradation nearly as much.
A Tesla Model S with 85 kwh battery (about 4 times the capacity of the Leaf) with a 30% loss of capacity would still provide a useful 180-200 miles range.Andy From Sligo wrote: »[*]do any of these electric vehicles have any of this technology which charges the batteries when you break like the hybrid cars have?
Yes, they all do but the benefits are small. But it still gives you something back and it's a lot easier on the friction brakes because they have to do a hell of a lot less of the braking. Going down a mountain would be a lot more noticeable but you'll use a lot more energy going up.Andy From Sligo wrote: »[*]Do they all have some kind of noise that makes it sound like a car for other road users or do you just hear a hum/whine?
Yes and I find this ridiculous, especially the noise of the Renault Zoe which is too loud and intrudes into the cabin. I always turn it off in the Leaf.
I have never had a single incident in the Prius or the Leaf which leads me to believe that noise makers in electrics are pointless but it gives legislators something to do to justify their existence. I find if someone doesn't notice me a slight bip of the horn solves any potential issue. But I bet these type of people would be the ones who'd walk out in front of any car even with a big noisy diesel engine.
More worrying is the fact people are still allowed to walk in public streets with headphones in while texting, but making electric cars noisier is their priority.Andy From Sligo wrote: »[*]What are they like these days, are they still sluggish and is there enough ooomph for driving uphill and overtaking? - any flat spots at certain speeds?
Yes plenty of power, power is available instantly and can be a lot of fun. Most electric cars are heavy and have only in or around 100 HP but it feels a lot more due to so much of that power being available from almost 0 mph. And having no gears to change makes it feel quicker again.
At higher speeds the Leaf for instance will feel like any other car with 107 HP. But I find it gets up to speed quick enough.
The Leaf eats hills. And Hills eat the battery !
Andy From Sligo wrote: »[*]do they give you a fair enough warning in plenty of time that the battery is getting near to empty - or can they go from being high power showing one minute to very low to empty the next minute like the battery bar on your mobile phone!!
The battery meter is pretty ok but you would not want to depend on it, for instance. I get to work (66.6 Kms) with about 45% battery and the range indicator says I still have about 85 Kms, but If I've used 55% to get to work it seems reasonable to expect I'll use the same or more to get home, think of a strong head wind and rain where the morning was calm and dry.
Again the Idea is top up before the charge gets too low. Topping up at the fast chargers by 10-20% won't be bad for the battery and won't heat it up too much in Summer. In winter you'll get away with it a lot more.
The battery range indicator (aka GOM-Guess-O-Meter) bases it's prediction on your current driving style, put the foot down and 20 Kms could be gone off in 5 Kms. Best to use the % left in the battery rather than the predicted range indicator, you do get used to it but I find a good 100 Kms at 100 Kph is a safe bet in -3 to 8 deg. When the weather gets warmer I should have more range due to the battery not being so cold and not using the heater as much.0 -
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