M50 to be made even more unbearable

RainyDay

jim-mcdee wrote: »

Motor tax and vat more than cover road maintenance so that is an uneducated silly argument.

Source please?

jim-mcdee wrote: »

Another silly argument is that building / widening roads is not a solution to congestion. What school of logic is being employed there? That's the most ridiculous thing I ever heard. 50 cars per km on one road. Build bypass. now 25 cars per km on each road = congestion alleviated. Really guys pull your head out of your cavity. One thing which I would totally support which even the evergreens miss, I would totally support a mandatory cycle lane on every new road, even motorway.

You haven't been paying attention to the real world. In the real world, when you build the bypass, you still end up with 50 cars per km, because of the extra drivers that decide to drive instead of taking public transport.

Idbatterim

lol

in the queue for capital funding for large infrastructure projects you have:

DART Underground and associated electrification and upgrades; circa €4bn
Metro North, or some other version of; Circa €1-2.5bn
Dublin BRT; circa €0.7bn

€700,000,000 on that BRT joke, if they dont have the money to do things properly, we can wait, we have been waiting decades for a decent transport system here and we are going to be waiting a good few more years minimum!

Funny how we dont have the money, for all projects or to do some properly, yet we have E700,000,000 for that absolute insult of a proposal...

when the m50 upgrade was planned, how long did they predict before it would reach capacity? I am looking for this information myself now, but it may take a while. We are just after coming out of bust and the thing was at breaking point about a year ago, the final phase of the "upgrade" was completed in September 2010, so less than 4.5 years ago...

jim-mcdee

RainyDay wrote: »

Source please?


You haven't been paying attention to the real world. In the real world, when you build the bypass, you still end up with 50 cars per km, because of the extra drivers that decide to drive instead of taking public transport.

"According to the AA’s Conor Faughnan, motorists are colossally taxed group of people with over €2 billion raised from diesel and petrol annually. This money goes centrally to the government as does the 2.5% insurance levy. According to the Sunday Tribune, Roads is the single largest spending item in the capital budget, accounting for 23%, or €1.7bn, of the €7.3bn capital spend this year overall."

€2 billion raised on fuel, €1 billion from motor tax, not including vat, income tax from employment in motor industry, and €1.7b spend on the roads.

How is that?


" In the real world, when you build the bypass, you still end up with 50 cars per km, because of the extra drivers that decide to drive instead of taking public transport"

Source?

RainyDay

jim-mcdee wrote: »

"According to the AA’s Conor Faughnan, motorists are colossally taxed group of people with over €2 billion raised from diesel and petrol annually. This money goes centrally to the government as does the 2.5% insurance levy. According to the Sunday Tribune, Roads is the single largest spending item in the capital budget, accounting for 23%, or €1.7bn, of the €7.3bn capital spend this year overall."

€2 billion raised on fuel, €1 billion from motor tax, not including vat, income tax from employment in motor industry, and €1.7b spend on the roads.

How is that?

It's a bit unclear. Is the €1.7bn spend the capital spend on new roads? Does it include road maintenance carried out by local authorities?

And where did you get the €1bn on road tax?

jim-mcdee wrote: »

" In the real world, when you build the bypass, you still end up with 50 cars per km, because of the extra drivers that decide to drive instead of taking public transport"

Source?

Have you tried driving on the M50 lately?

jim-mcdee

RainyDay wrote: »

It's a bit unclear. Is the €1.7bn spend the capital spend on new roads? Does it include road maintenance carried out by local authorities?

And where did you get the €1bn on road tax?



Have you tried driving on the M50 lately?

Weak arguements. Disappointing.

"And where did you get the €1bn on road tax?"
Go look it up mate, verifiable factual information unlike your subjective 'facts'

Tenzor07

jim-mcdee wrote: »

Motor tax and vat more than cover road maintenance so that is an uneducated silly argument.

So motor tax more than covers road maintenance?

What about the building of new roads, where does that pot of cash exist?

How about the fact that two-thirds of motor tax money went to Irish water?

jim-mcdee

Tenzor07 wrote: »

So motor tax more than covers road maintenance?

What about the building of new roads, where does that pot of cash exist?

How about the fact that two-thirds of motor tax money went to Irish water?

I would imagine but not certain, that the 1.7b includes new road building for that particular year, and possibly repayment on loans drawn down on cap ex for previous years major projects.

Irish water, what about it? Now we are paying for water, building a new bypass should be no problem. The greens wont have a leg to stand on when they see undeniable proof (of course the proof is already there) the motorist is paying hand over fist for their 'green' public transport projects. And I'll pay. No worries. But don't expect me to ever leave the car at home and actually use the public transport. I worked hard for it.

Idbatterim

here is a partial solution, build high density in the docklands, it means some people could move back into the city, i.e. dont have to commute and it would mean that others werent priced out of living in Dublin and exacerbating the issue we are discussing. The 7-8 storey stuff they are building in the docklands is beyond a joke and I have already read about the lack of office space and rising rates potentially damaging our competitiveness and leading to companies choosing to locate somewhere else, sound familiar?

Dog of Tears

RainyDay wrote: »

Have you tried driving on the M50 lately?

Great 'source'. :rolleyes:

RainyDay

jim-mcdee wrote: »

Weak arguements. Disappointing.

Oh, I'm devestated.

jim-mcdee wrote: »

I would imagine but not certain, that the 1.7b includes new road building for that particular year, and possibly repayment on loans drawn down on cap ex for previous years major projects.

Imagination doesn't get you very far. The important question is whether the €1.7b includes both infrastructure costs for new developments AND maintenance costs for new roads. Pity you weren't clear about this before you went making claims about it.

Chris_5339762

Rather than driving into work, I'd be somewhat tempted to take the Luas from the P&R into work.

Only its €4 per day, on top of the Luas ticket. Ludicrous amount of money, should be €1 per day if they want people to use it.

Also add to the fact that the scumbags on the Red Line would prevent me from doing that as I would have to work late quite often. Not worth the risk if I can drive into work and park like I (currently) can.

Thats why I won't take public transport myself, anyway. I'd have to drive to the bus stop and pick up a bus to work if I wanted to take that option. Same reasons apply really. The last thing I want to do is leave work in the dark late at night in winter and walk to a dodgy bus stop to spend 20-30 minutes waiting for a bus to my car which is then parked in an estate, hopefully untouched.

cdebru

jim-mcdee wrote: »

" In the real world, when you build the bypass, you still end up with 50 cars per km, because of the extra drivers that decide to drive instead of taking public transport"

Source?

Its called induced demand, basically the more road you build the more people are attracted to that road, and into commuting greater distances etc,

You can see it in how the commuter belt around Dublin expanded as the roads improved and things that were unthinkable only a short time before became reality like people living in Cavan and working in Dublin, they are also enticed into buying cars and moving away from public transport until the roads are full then you add space and the cycle starts again, the other thing to bear in mind is no matter how wide the road is lots of people are trying to get to the same place whether thats the city center or an industrial estate or the school or college you get down to a bottleneck that is unavoidable.


http://www.vox.com/2014/10/23/6994159/traffic-roads-induced-demand


There is a link but google induced demand traffic and you can read loads on it.

beauf

I think you can summarise this thread, as no matter how bad they make the M50 its still better than the alternative for many people.

cdebru

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

Rather than driving into work, I'd be somewhat tempted to take the Luas from the P&R into work.

Only its €4 per day, on top of the Luas ticket. Ludicrous amount of money, should be €1 per day if they want people to use it.

Also add to the fact that the scumbags on the Red Line would prevent me from doing that as I would have to work late quite often. Not worth the risk if I can drive into work and park like I (currently) can.

Thats why I won't take public transport myself, anyway. I'd have to drive to the bus stop and pick up a bus to work if I wanted to take that option. Same reasons apply really. The last thing I want to do is leave work in the dark late at night in winter and walk to a dodgy bus stop to spend 20-30 minutes waiting for a bus to my car which is then parked in an estate, hopefully untouched.

€ 4 a day is too expensive ? Thats €20 a week, how much to park in the city for the day ?

You are proving the point though people need the stick to get them out of their cars

cdebru

beauf wrote: »

I think you can summarise this thread, as no matter how bad they make the M50 its still better than the alternative for many people.

For most people there is no alternative I would imagine which is why we need to invest in alternatives to the failed idea that we can all drive ourselves to work, and just keep building more roads

L1011

cdebru wrote: »

€ 4 a day is too expensive ? Thats €20 a week, how much to park in the city for the day ?

If you've got parking in the city, zero.

Otherwise, my employer has a parking deal at €20 a week with the local multistorey in the first place, something I doubt is that rare. Implicit understanding is that we're rarely if ever there nights and weekends when they're busier than midweek daytimes.

Park and ride charges really need to be allowable under taxsaver as commuting costs if they want to encourage it; although when there's insufficient spaces or insufficient capacity on what the P&R is for that needs fixing first.

Aard

Park and ride might be useful for some people who already live far from public transport. But it also works the other way and can encourage people to live even further from cities than they would have if there was no park and ride option.

The only answer, long term, is to build more housing in the city so that people have options as to where they want to live. Right now, living in the city is becoming a luxury.

selous

Using the M50 this afternoon seen a car towing a double axle trailer with another car on it, in the middle lane doing about 60-70kmh just at the Junction 13 north bound a big red van to the right of it keeping level with it, cars then started undertaking them eventually the red van fell in behind the car doing the towing the gob**ite in the van had the phone in his hand on the wheel TEXTING, so his speedlimit is the one they want to bring in and it created a traffic jam, when all it needs is rules that are there, enforced.

jim-mcdee

cdebru wrote: »

Its called induced demand, basically the more road you build the more people are attracted to that road, and into commuting greater distances etc,

You can see it in how the commuter belt around Dublin expanded as the roads improved and things that were unthinkable only a short time before became reality like people living in Cavan and working in Dublin, they are also enticed into buying cars and moving away from public transport until the roads are full then you add space and the cycle starts again, the other thing to bear in mind is no matter how wide the road is lots of people are trying to get to the same place whether thats the city center or an industrial estate or the school or college you get down to a bottleneck that is unavoidable.


http://www.vox.com/2014/10/23/6994159/traffic-roads-induced-demand


There is a link but google induced demand traffic and you can read loads on it.

I agree with that but do you make people and business in and around cavan suffer because you dont want people commuting? Some do it by choice because they were born and raised there and are willing to sacrifice the commute for their family etc. Do you punish them?

Calina

jim-mcdee wrote: »

I agree with that but do you make people and business in and around cavan suffer because you dont want people commuting? Some do it by choice because they were born and raised there and are willing to sacrifice the commute for their family etc. Do you punish them?

What proportion do it by choice?

cdebru

jim-mcdee wrote: »

I agree with that but do you make people and business in and around cavan suffer because you dont want people commuting? Some do it by choice because they were born and raised there and are willing to sacrifice the commute for their family etc. Do you punish them?

So they were building houses for Cavan people with Dublin accents then, did the same in Drogheda and Navan and Port Laoise etc etc, do you keep building bigger roads to accommodate them, because it will just encourage more Dublin accented Cavan people to return "home"

Macy0161

cdebru wrote: »

€ 4 a day is too expensive ? Thats €20 a week, how much to park in the city for the day ?

You are proving the point though people need the stick to get them out of their cars

The park and ride charges effectively off set any savings from the taxsaver. Cheaper outright, or allowing a yearly parking on the taxsaver can act as a carrot.

Aard wrote: »

Park and ride might be useful for some people who already live far from public transport. But it also works the other way and can encourage people to live even further from cities than they would have if there was no park and ride option.

The only answer, long term, is to build more housing in the city so that people have options as to where they want to live. Right now, living in the city is becoming a luxury.

A few things on this...

You do have to deal with the people that have moved out and are settled in a community now. But there will always be a cohort that are staying where they were brought up/ with their families. Cheaper housing isn't the only reason people go in for long commutes.

Outside the m50, for better or worse, doesn't actually mean outside the conurbation of Dublin.

Chris_5339762

cdebru wrote: »

€ 4 a day is too expensive ? Thats €20 a week, how much to park in the city for the day ?

You are proving the point though people need the stick to get them out of their cars

I do get free parking at work so €20 per week + tickets is not an expense I'd like, especially as I'd have to drive to the P&R anyway. Couple that with the additional time it would take and I'm sure you'll see that I'd rather stay in my car.

(Also I drive to work well before the traffic in the morning so I'm not adding to it).

But thats the thing, its not that its completely right to force people out of their cars, you do have to give people an alternative thats almost as good or better than they have at present. If it were cheaper or quicker to use public transport to get to work then of course I'd use it. But for me, the car is by far the best option at the moment. Public transport to get to work would be a combination of a 10 minute walk, an hour on the bus and 15 minutes on the Luas... combination tickets are awkward and there are massive reliability issues. Its a 19 minute drive in the mornings, before the traffic. No comparison.

yipeeeee

Another crash this morning.

Every single morning for the last few weeks.

Tenzor07

yipeeeee wrote: »

Another crash this morning.

Every single morning for the last few weeks.

Yeap, car overturned at exit 6. quite how the driver managed that I wonder!

Thankfully I was on the road early, though didn't stop a 151 Audi from sitting 2 foot from my rear bumper with 5 cars directly ahead of me and a wet road with lots of spray.... :mad:

yipeeeee

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Yeap, car overturned at exit 6. quite how the driver managed that I wonder!

Thankfully I was on the road early, though didn't stop a 151 Audi from sitting 2 foot from my rear bumper with 5 cars directly ahead of me and a wet road with lots of spray.... :mad:

As soon as it was cleared another multi pile up at blanch.

The accident was cleared but north and south lanes crawling right up to the accident then flying after it.

Rubber necks I swear to God, unbelievable.

SeanW

cdebru wrote: »

You are proving the point though people need the stick to get them out of their cars

No, the "carrot" in this case is inadequate, the poster gets poor value for money from the P&R and does not feel that he or his property would be safe if he used the Red luas line because it's so full of scumbags.

Come back and make the same argument when there is a Transport Police and proper sentences for thugs. Until then, it's premature.

cdebru

SeanW wrote: »

No, the "carrot" in this case is inadequate, the poster gets poor value for money from the P&R and does not feel that he or his property would be safe if he used the Red luas line because it's so full of scumbags.

Come back and make the same argument when there is a Transport Police and proper sentences for thugs. Until then, it's premature.

If you read back what I posted, I said we need to invest in public transport and not more roads and when we do that and have a properly planned and executed public transport system then we need the stick to get people to use it. I never said that is now because our current public transport couldn't provide for people if you forced them from their cars.
However some people here insist they dont care how good public transport is they want their car, that just proves the carrot alone won't work.

Idbatterim

However some people here insist they dont care how good public transport is they want their car, that just proves the carrot alone won't work.

yeah that is true, my brother has a car, cycles, he is a 10 minute walk to work, a few minute by bike, sub five. He pays E1080 for motor tax for the year, plus all the other motoring related expenses, so that he has the freedom and benefits associated with having a car...

SeanW

cdebru wrote: »

However some people here insist they dont care how good public transport is they want their car, that just proves the carrot alone won't work.

A minority, and I don't think that's what the poster you replied to was saying.

Most of the rail lines around Dublin are over-subscribed. The Northern section of the Green line Luas, part of the Red line (City Centre parts mostly) also the Northern and Maynooth commuter lines are all full to the brim at least in peak hours. That part of the record is clear, you may "induce demand" by building roads for people in cars, but you can also induce demand for public transport by providing safe, fast, convenient public transport. Funny!

Idbatterim

A minority, and I don't think that's what the poster you replied to was saying.

I think it depends on their disposable income to an extent, there is no way I can see vast swathes of south dublin in particular going without a car, nearly regardless of how good public transport is, what I can see if it was much better, is them using the car a lot less...

Chris_5339762

SeanW wrote: »

No, the "carrot" in this case is inadequate, the poster gets poor value for money from the P&R and does not feel that he or his property would be safe if he used the Red luas line because it's so full of scumbags.

Come back and make the same argument when there is a Transport Police and proper sentences for thugs. Until then, it's premature.

Just to add to that I would be perfectly happy on the Red Luas in the morning going to work, but not in the evening if I have to work late as I'd have to wait at one of the worst stops. A friend of mine had a glass bottle thrown at her not that long ago, another friend of mine got punched for no reason nearby, another friend had a bag stolen while waiting at the stop and another friend of mine got bashed in the face, all within 50m of that stop. Oh, and yet another colleague got hit in the head by someone throwing rocks at him.

Needs to be a pretty big carrot for me I'm afraid!

Macy0161

cdebru wrote: »

However some people here insist they dont care how good public transport is they want their car, that just proves the carrot alone won't work.

But there's only a limited carrot at the moment. €4 park and ride eats into the carrot of a taxsaver ticket in my own experience. Even having to find it everyday rather than it just coming out of my wages would be more carrot, even if it didn't qualify for tax saver tbh.

The comments about South Dublin, well I'm not so sure. Street parking around Dart stations and bus routes is either packed or had to be restricted, due to the demand for it. In Bray (I know North Wicklow, but still...) the unrestricted parking around the Dart station has got progressively further and further away from the station in recent years. That says to me there is demand to use rail, that is actually being discouraged! Around the N11 from Loughlinstown in, there's lots of people parking up and getting buses. They'd probably be more with cheap, secure (more secure than on street) parking.

There is demand it's just not being facilitated as well as it could be. Mainly due to lack of joined up thinking between Councils (who have the land/ space) and the Transport Companies (who have the routes but not the space).

positron

Can they not build two elevated lanes on pillars over the M50, kinda like a flyover over the me as between N3 and N7 exits?

cgcsb

There does need to be a stick for sure. Take well heeled south east Dublin as an example. You have a frequent and fast DART and Luas and the best QBC in the City all running parallel to each other with barely 1.5km between them most of the way. Yet the SUVs still clog the roads. I would thoroughly support congetion charging the N11 corridor as it stands currently, given the great selection of alternative modes.

The rest of the City only has a sparse network of mostly infrequent bus based public transport.

jim-mcdee

cdebru wrote: »

So they were building houses for Cavan people with Dublin accents then, did the same in Drogheda and Navan and Port Laoise etc etc, do you keep building bigger roads to accommodate them, because it will just encourage more Dublin accented Cavan people to return "home"

No, the issue is more complex to be defined with a Simplistic argument like that. Dublin people purchased houses in Cavan because Cavan co.co were allowing ANYONE AND EVERYONE planning permission to build massive Mc Mansions of 3-5 thousand sq ft and other counties were not. And people with more money than sense and delusions of grandeur took the bait and moved there. Add to that cheaper land, etc etc. You get the drift. They did not move out there only because of the motorway (which is tolled by the way, meaning €10 return to cavan only on tolls).

Irish Steve

positron wrote: »

Can they not build two elevated lanes on pillars over the M50, kinda like a flyover over the me as between N3 and N7 exits?

Not needed yet, if they wanted to try an experiment, put a temporary barrier up and make the right hand 2 lanes for through traffic only from south of Valleymount to North of Blanchardstown. Would be very interesting to see what that does for traffic flows on that section.

Macy0161

cgcsb wrote: »

There does need to be a stick for sure. Take well heeled south east Dublin as an example. You have a frequent and fast DART and Luas and the best QBC in the City all running parallel to each other with barely 1.5km between them most of the way. Yet the SUVs still clog the roads. I would thoroughly support congetion charging the N11 corridor as it stands currently, given the great selection of alternative modes.

The rest of the City only has a sparse network of mostly infrequent bus based public transport.

Does it though? I would say there's capacity issues on all the options.

The QBC is actually only that frequent from Foxrock Church, and buses are often full by Stillorgan. Darts are full (seating wise) from Bray, and the Trains from further out are worse. BE are pretty full from what I see.

That's before you get into how additional people access the options - as I keep banging on about, there's a lack of park and ride facilities the whole way in from Wicklow Town!

Calina

cgcsb wrote: »

There does need to be a stick for sure. Take well heeled south east Dublin as an example. You have a frequent and fast DART and Luas and the best QBC in the City all running parallel to each other with barely 1.5km between them most of the way. Yet the SUVs still clog the roads. I would thoroughly support congetion charging the N11 corridor as it stands currently, given the great selection of alternative modes.

In my failed experiment to use public transport, I used the 46A route southbound leaving city centre. It was generally packed and often could not pick me up in the city centre because it was packed. There's no point in howling about all the SUVs on the road if in fact, the alternatives are packed. I can't speak for any of the other options from experience but I@m not sure I've seen anyone suggesting those DART trains and those Luas trams and goddammit all those buses on that QBC are actually empty. You'd have a point if they were; my experience says they probably aren't.

cgcsb wrote: »

The rest of the City only has a sparse network of mostly infrequent bus based public transport.

The Drumcondra corridor, Malahide corridor and Phibsboro corridors could not possibly be described as having mostly infrequent bus based transport. What they tend to have are serious bunching problems rendering it unreliable for people across great swathes of those arteries.

At this point, there does not need to be a stick. There will be a stick because construction of new infrastructure tends to cause disruption. But right now, even in those areas where there is semi-developed levels of public transport, the system is creaking. The issue - in my view - is that to get decent rail based public transport built, we might need to look at levelling some buildings.

I can't see it happening.

L1011

cgcsb wrote: »

You have a frequent and fast DART and Luas and the best QBC in the City all running parallel to each other

And all three completely at capacity.

You can't make people take public transport that doesn't exist, and lack of capacity is the same.

You can try replying along the lines of "oh, there should be more capacity..." but your proposal doesn't even brush off it - just more stick for car drivers. Capacity needs to be fixed first along with provision issues and only then look at further solutions.

cgcsb

The Capacity issue is a good point. Buses trams and DART are wedged. I wonder what can be done to improve it? DARTS could be much more frequent, more carriages, some sort of bus priority through Donnybrook could help.

Other than that I'd be stumped for an improvement on that corridor, save upgrading luas to metro and building luas on the N11.

In Dublin, issues surrounding rail transport, centre around the Irish Times pseudo know it alls screaming that if we built X, sure it'd be empty. We seen it for DART, Luas and metro discussions. Despite this, every single new rail based public transport measure has been mobbed, utterly over capacity. The notion that any new rail infrastructure in the city, metro north or DARTu etc. could be running empty needs to be firmly dispatched.

monument

cgcsb wrote: »

There does need to be a stick for sure. Take well heeled south east Dublin as an example. You have a frequent and fast DART and Luas and the best QBC in the City all running parallel to each other with barely 1.5km between them most of the way. Yet the SUVs still clog the roads. I would thoroughly support congetion charging the N11 corridor as it stands currently, given the great selection of alternative modes.

The rest of the City only has a sparse network of mostly infrequent bus based public transport.

As others have said above, those options are largely full at least at peak times.

I would not support congestion charging on the route, in the long run a far better option would be to add capacity by a major redesign of the route to include grade segregated light rail, maybe while keeping the bus lanes and less local access.

Macy0161

cgcsb wrote: »

The Capacity issue is a good point. Buses trams and DART are wedged. I wonder what can be done to improve it? DARTS could be much more frequent, more carriages, some sort of bus priority through Donnybrook could help.

Other than that I'd be stumped for an improvement on that corridor, save upgrading luas to metro and building luas on the N11.

In Dublin, issues surrounding rail transport, centre around the Irish Times pseudo know it alls screaming that if we built X, sure it'd be empty. We seen it for DART, Luas and metro discussions. Despite this, every single new rail based public transport measure has been mobbed, utterly over capacity. The notion that any new rail infrastructure in the city, metro north or DARTu etc. could be running empty needs to be firmly dispatched.

The long term plan was for Luas to extend out to Bray, including a Park and Ride in Fassaroe. I can't remember was it to go as far as the Dart (the old line was built on in some parts), but if it did it would open up the Dart line to more people too.

I was surprised that the proposed BRT was only down to go as far as UCD. I did submit that it should go as far as Loughlinstown/ Cherrywood (with the opportunity for a joint Luas/ BRT park and ride. I don't know whether the plan was amended, if that is even been announced.

Dart and Luas - increased frequency and/or longer trains.

cgcsb

Macy0161 wrote: »

The long term plan was for Luas to extend out to Bray, including a Park and Ride in Fassaroe. I can't remember was it to go as far as the Dart (the old line was built on in some parts), but if it did it would open up the Dart line to more people too.

I was surprised that the proposed BRT was only down to go as far as UCD. I did submit that it should go as far as Loughlinstown/ Cherrywood (with the opportunity for a joint Luas/ BRT park and ride. I don't know whether the plan was amended, if that is even been announced.

Dart and Luas - increased frequency and/or longer trains.

As far as I know the plan was to have two branches at the end of the line one for Bray Station and the other for a developer lead planned town called 'Fassroe' or something like that to the west of Bray.

This project fell by the wayside after the crash. In fairness it's not that critical in the grand scheme of the mess that is public transport in metropolitan Dublin. Indeed the BRT stopping at UCD is madness when extending it further could be done for minimal cost with little/no engineering works required on the route.

_Kaiser_

The BRT is the equivalent of closing the barn door after the horse has long bolted. Massive disruption for very little (if any) gain. It's a fancy CitySwift, nothing more and a waste of the money they intend to spend on it. Ditto LUAS BXD which will only move the Red Line problems onto the Green Line IMO.

Put that money into heavy rail and the existing bus services (but with SLAs and penalties to match - not just another cash pit) and you'd see a much more significant improvement, much quicker, and with less disruption to already congested arteries.

In other words - just for once - we should do something that ACTUALLY makes a real difference, rather than just APPEARS to!

Aard

The Red line "ACTUALLY" makes a difference to many thousands of commuters' lives. BXD will bring one of the biggest changes in decades to how people get into and around Central Dublin.

gandalf

60km speed limit would be crazy as someone who uses the M50 every day I really don't see how that is workable.

I head from Firhouse to Blanchardstown at 7.45 every morning and unless there is an accident on the road it moves along well, the same for the return journey in the evening.

The only potential pinch point is around the Red Cow off ramps both ways and the Ballymount one on the way South.

The big mistake made was not to lay Dart or Luas lines along the M50 when they upgraded it. That way you could link up all the major arteries into the city and give people options on linking up public transport routes. They could also then build light rail systems in along each of the motorways into the city. Do that with proper park and ride facilities and they will remove an awful lot of the traffic from our roads.

Tenzor07

Two more incidents yesterday evening at "rush hour" collision between exit 6 and 5 northbound, another south/city bound at the M1/M50 interchange..

Not sure the 60kph speed limit would resolve this, most likely this is all down to poor merging onto the M50, and late changing of lanes coming down from the M1 >> M50..

Poor lane discipline, last minute lane changes, speeding, following too close, large/medium commercials in the outside lane, motorcycles filtering between lanes at speed, L/N/inexperienced drivers...all contributing to making the M50 unbearable at peak times...

patrickbrophy18

A 60 KM/H limit on the M50 would be absolute madness. If this is another attempt at inconveniencing motorists, it really is incredibly inconsiderate. It is clearly the brain child of someone who has a major chip on their shoulder towards motorists. If the government really want to incentivise alternative modes of transport, firstly, provide it. Here is an idea for an orbital light rail or BRT route which I came up with a few months back:

Idbatterim

lets be honest there is zero enforcement, what will they do when tens of thousands flout the speed limit on a daily basis, speed limits here are nearly as good as a token gesture....

I drive what I feel is safe for the particular road, there is a tiny road at the end of my parents drive down in the country house, with hair pin blind bends, wide enough for one car and it has an 80 limit!