Safety and the rules/regulations/law of open road racing.

Beasty

Alas there is no such thing as a rolling road closure which means that full road closures have to be applied for. That's the situation in County Fingal where racing (including triathlons) require full road closures. For a one-off Open race it is possible but diversions must be in place and the roads remain the responsibility of the organisers for the full period specified. Unfortunately any circuits in Fingal of sufficient length often include motorway junctions or major roads, or indeed intersections with such roads. I know of a few shorter circuits which can avoid such issues, but running handicap races or DMSs on those circuits is likely to be difficult. It does make weekly club races particularly difficult to run.

Races like the Ras benefit from "active" Gardai involvement. They can manage traffic accordingly (which in effect does then allow for rolling or temporary road closures) - they do then need the Gardai to take complete control which involves significant manpower and can be potentially very expensive

Of course if the roads are closed white lines cease to be an issue and it's possible to consider circuits that would not be viable if the roads were open (because they would be too narrow to permit oncoming traffic)

GMCI

A few points:

1: Cycle Racing is a dangerous sport. If you are not prepared to accept that it is a dangerous sport caused by a number of areas such as dangerous roads, dangerous rider behavior, then try Sportive cycling where a different part of the road traffic act governs (ie two abreast)

2: Rider cameras are not permitted in Cycle races either on the machine or person as they are not an essential piece of equipment or safety equipment. (similar to mudguards not being permitted in open races). All Commissaires are being reminded of this with permission to start withheld for anybody carrying such a piece of recording equipment. What you see with pro races is the UCI going through a test phase with a reputable manufacturer (shimano) and not joe bloggs fitting on a Go Pro however he pleases.

3. As already stated earlier, be very careful what you wish for. Everybody is aware of the situation in NDC. Be prepared to see such situations being rolled out nationwide if muppets continue to post videos from inside the peloton. Ireland is currently in a very unique state in that road closures are not mandatory. It may not be too far away based on NDC, all the authorities need is ammo to justify the case and the plonkers posting up these videos online line are handing this ammo to them on a plate. Thereafter you will all be moaning on boards about how there is no racing anymore because organisers cannot afford Road Closure orders and the associated man power that goes with them due to the costs.

4. It is a road race, racing happens, risks are taken to gain an advantage in position that may lead to a favourable finishing position. If not happy with the concept of racing, then racing is not for you.

5. Organisers need to wake up and realise that putting a single lead car out front with a ****ty single flashing beacon maybe was sufficient 20 years ago, but not today. God help them if there was a breakaway that was 2mins up the road. If organisers want to take on an unlimited peloton size , then they have the responsibility to ensure adequate safety cover for those numbers. A single lead car with a single beacon and no warning signage simply wont cut it anymore. Sure everything has a flashing beacon these days. A motorist wouldnt even pay attention to that these days.

6. Commissaires are not available in the sufficient numbers to act on what posters here are expecting. To DSQ a rider when on your own as a Commissaire would involve having to stop the race and then try and pull that rider out. Simply not practical without more on motorbikes and even then a dangerous situation for them trying to engage with the riders to pull out.

7. The Commissaires are responsible for the sporting conduct of the race. The riders are wholly responsible for their own safety and the safety of others in obeying the rules of the road. Everybody's signature indicating that commitment is there to see when you sign on a signing on sheet.

8. Marshal education is non existant. A person dons a Hi Viz and a red flag and all of a sudden they believe they have the power to stop traffic, which became the detriment to some events locally. This is simply not the case with only the Gardai having the legal authority to stop a car. So Marshal education is required to highlight what they can and cant do and how to go about using their role efficiently for the safety of the riders.

9. As already stated, be careful what you wish for. Boards has proved to be a strong voice for getting things done in the past. I can guarantee the next steps coming down the line will be:
A) Restricted peloton sizes for the level of the event
Resulting in pre entry for EVERY event
C) Increase in entry fees per race due to increased costs in event support for the days program of racing
D) Pre event Marshal briefing days in advance of the event being required to ensure everybody is acting in the spirit of the current Road Traffic Act.

Then and only then, we may be able prevent the authorities from imposing Road Closure orders on future cycling events and therefore wiping out half the CI Calendar.

Its going to be one hell of a long season if this the tone from the first event. Instead of posting negativity, learn to attack in a race and get breakaways forming for your own safety and possible success then.

morana

@gmci the video is there ask the college of commisars to go scrutinise it and suspend the offending plonkers/muppets or as I prefer riders.

GMCI

morana wrote: »

@gmci the video is there ask the college of commisars to go scrutinise it and suspend the offending plonkers/muppets or as I prefer riders.

Unfortunately it is not in the remit of the College of Commissaires. Commissaires can only act on matters of sporting conduct, on the day which is up to a maximum if Disqualification in severity.

Issues that may result in suspensions are handled under the discipline section of the regulations. Ie, the provincial executive.

killalanerr

I'll just add one small point road closures are not required in NCD to run races . This is just an intearpataton of one group . A number of events are on the calendar in this area in the coming weeks

Beasty

killalanerr wrote: »

This is just an intearpataton of one group

If it's the "group" I think you are referring to, you perhaps are not in possession of the full facts. This is not a matter of interpretation - Fingal CoCo do not currently permit road racing except on fully closed roads or if the Gardai are providing full support (as is usually the case with the Ras).

GlennaMaddy

. The Commissaires are responsible for the sporting conduct of the race.

they have powers to make a change in the mindset, sections 4 an 9 of article 1 are at their disposal

Lusk_Doyle

GMCI wrote: »

A few points:

1: Cycle Racing is a dangerous sport. If you are not prepared to accept that it is a dangerous sport caused by a number of areas such as dangerous roads, dangerous rider behavior, then try Sportive cycling where a different part of the road traffic act governs (ie two abreast)

2: Rider cameras are not permitted in Cycle races either on the machine or person as they are not an essential piece of equipment or safety equipment. (similar to mudguards not being permitted in open races). All Commissaires are being reminded of this with permission to start withheld for anybody carrying such a piece of recording equipment. What you see with pro races is the UCI going through a test phase with a reputable manufacturer (shimano) and not joe bloggs fitting on a Go Pro however he pleases.

3. As already stated earlier, be very careful what you wish for. Everybody is aware of the situation in NDC. Be prepared to see such situations being rolled out nationwide if muppets continue to post videos from inside the peloton. Ireland is currently in a very unique state in that road closures are not mandatory. It may not be too far away based on NDC, all the authorities need is ammo to justify the case and the plonkers posting up these videos online line are handing this ammo to them on a plate. Thereafter you will all be moaning on boards about how there is no racing anymore because organisers cannot afford Road Closure orders and the associated man power that goes with them due to the costs.

4. It is a road race, racing happens, risks are taken to gain an advantage in position that may lead to a favourable finishing position. If not happy with the concept of racing, then racing is not for you.

5. Organisers need to wake up and realise that putting a single lead car out front with a ****ty single flashing beacon maybe was sufficient 20 years ago, but not today. God help them if there was a breakaway that was 2mins up the road. If organisers want to take on an unlimited peloton size , then they have the responsibility to ensure adequate safety cover for those numbers. A single lead car with a single beacon and no warning signage simply wont cut it anymore. Sure everything has a flashing beacon these days. A motorist wouldnt even pay attention to that these days.

6. Commissaires are not available in the sufficient numbers to act on what posters here are expecting. To DSQ a rider when on your own as a Commissaire would involve having to stop the race and then try and pull that rider out. Simply not practical without more on motorbikes and even then a dangerous situation for them trying to engage with the riders to pull out.

7. The Commissaires are responsible for the sporting conduct of the race. The riders are wholly responsible for their own safety and the safety of others in obeying the rules of the road. Everybody's signature indicating that commitment is there to see when you sign on a signing on sheet.

8. Marshal education is non existant. A person dons a Hi Viz and a red flag and all of a sudden they believe they have the power to stop traffic, which became the detriment to some events locally. This is simply not the case with only the Gardai having the legal authority to stop a car. So Marshal education is required to highlight what they can and cant do and how to go about using their role efficiently for the safety of the riders.

9. As already stated, be careful what you wish for. Boards has proved to be a strong voice for getting things done in the past. I can guarantee the next steps coming down the line will be:
A) Restricted peloton sizes for the level of the event
Resulting in pre entry for EVERY event
C) Increase in entry fees per race due to increased costs in event support for the days program of racing
D) Pre event Marshal briefing days in advance of the event being required to ensure everybody is acting in the spirit of the current Road Traffic Act.

Then and only then, we may be able prevent the authorities from imposing Road Closure orders on future cycling events and therefore wiping out half the CI Calendar.

Its going to be one hell of a long season if this the tone from the first event. Instead of posting negativity, learn to attack in a race and get breakaways forming for your own safety and possible success then.

I have a very serious objection to your post. It is both insulting and ignores the fundamental point that has been made. You have suggested that if someone doesn't like the dangers of racing that they should do sportif rides instead or that they should get away up the road in a break so that they don't have to be subjected to the behaviour in question. That suggestion / solution is outrageous and you should be ashamed of putting it out there. If that is the attitude of the decision makers in CI then there is need for a much bigger change than we thought.

I enjoy racing. I understand the inherent dangers of it. That does not excuse, or make it ok, or mean that I should be forced to be subjected to increased levels of danger as a result of blatant law breaking and stupidity of other riders taking over the entire road. Simply turning the other way and saying what you have regarding what riders can do (which is basically shutup about it) and that CI can do nothing after the race is wrong on many fronts, both moral and legal.

This sort of attitude can only be eliminated with a stick approach from the top down. It is not something that can be forced from the ground up.

I am shocked at your post and I wonder is this the offical CI position on the matter? I have more that I want to say about your post but I am just so annoyed at what you have posted that I can't get the words down in the manner that I want.

Chips Lovell

GMCI wrote: »

A few points...

If I could thank this post twice, I would. Fair play for taking the time to put together a such an informed and considered summation of the issues.

07Lapierre

killalanerr wrote: »

I'll just add one small point road closures are not required in NCD to run races .

Great!.. organise a few races in NCD and I'll happily attend.

07Lapierre

niceonetom wrote: »

Ban cameras.

Or maybe introduce more cameras? if riders are aware that they are being watched (and that there are consequences for their actions) maybe they would behave better?

spyderski

niceonetom wrote: »

Ban cameras.

They already are banned.

NamelessPhil

Road traffic legislation governs all bahaviour on the roads including racing. Cycling Ireland races are not exempt from having to comply with the law, to say that "then try Sportive cycling where a different part of the road traffic act governs (ie two abreast)" is not correct and possibly misleading. The signing of the Cycling Ireland waiver does not exempt a rider from having to abide by the rules of the road.

daragh_

As I’m quoted at the top of this thread I thought I would throw my 2c in.

I’m heading into my 3rd year in A4 (which says a lot about my ability I guess) and I know feck all about what it’s like to ride in an A3 race so feel free to ignore.


My comments as quoted were specifically about A4 and a general behaviour pattern that I’ve observed, and, for the record, have been guilty of. I don’t mean to be negative but I would like other A4 riders to display at least some awareness of what they are at and are getting into.

I’m very aware of how dangerous the sport can be. I’ve even got (like a lot of you) the scars, wonky collarbone and a finger that doesn’t work properly anymore to prove it.

What I also have is a well developed sense of caution and an awareness of my own ability in terms of about what I can and can’t do in a race.

If I’m feeling strong and the circumstances work out I’ll ride at the front (generally too early but that’s another story) attack if I can and, if I have to ride up on the outside to do that I will. But only if it’s safe to do so.

That means no floating about in a big bunch on the wrong side on narrow roads, with corners. No attacks coming up to blind corners. No blindly following 20 other lads up on the right because the pace seems to have slowed and we all think we are in with a chance 40k into a 60k race.

I honestly don’t mean to sound negative and ruin anyone’s buzz. Racing is probably the best thing I’ve ever done and I don’t think I could stop! As I said in the NF thread a simple thing like the Moped Commissaire made a huge difference to rider behaviour.

I like GCMI’s comment 'learn to attack in a race and get breakaways forming for your own safety’ . That’s what I’ll be trying to do this year. Watching me fail should be amusing :rolleyes:

NamelessPhil

Cycling Ireland's own Technical Rules state:

Chapter T6: Rule 5. Riders riding dangerously will be liable to sanction, as will any rider who makes any gesture with the
hands during a group finish in circumstances likely to create a danger.

Rule10. The Commissaire may withdraw any competitor who is physically inadequate or inexperienced and who
presents a danger to other competitors or to himself.

Commisiares should be available to sanction riders during the event as their own Technical Rules permit.

godihatedehills

GMCI wrote: »

A few points:....

Great post. GMCI is one of the people who does more for safety in cycling races in a weekend than most people do in their entire lives. The fact that he can also show a bit of practicality about the situation is commendable.

07Lapierre

interesting Article:

http://www.independent.ie/life/motoring/car-news/how-cycling-injuries-are-spiralling-a-medics-view-30999956.html

morana

GMCI wrote: »

Unfortunately it is not in the remit of the College of Commissaires. Commissaires can only act on matters of sporting conduct, on the day which is up to a maximum if Disqualification in severity.

ah sure feck it so let it go on.



I cant find that in the rules. the nearest thing was 12.1 in AT4 "breaking the rules of the road".

dashcamdanny

GMCI wrote: »

A few points:

1: Cycle Racing is a dangerous sport. If you are not prepared to accept that it is a dangerous sport caused by a number of areas such as dangerous roads, dangerous rider behavior, then try Sportive cycling where a different part of the road traffic act governs (ie two abreast)

.

Such a load of BS.

You have absolutely no entitlement to put other members of the public at risk .
Some of the actions on that vid is blatantly dangerous driving/riding.
The charge that could entails court, heavy fines, losing ones driving licence and so on.


Cycle racing is no doubt dangerous, but that danger should never spread to ordinary members of the public. Im am fairly sure the people traveling the other way did not sign any entry or waiver forms to enter your race on a public road.

And the thing that does my head in the most, being a "sportive" rider, I have to deal with the bike hating motorists as a result of clowns who give us a bad reputation with regard traffic law.

Cams should be allowed as to expose the clowns.

Junior

So can anyone put together a coherent list of what they'd like a race to be like then for me ?

CramCycle

Junior wrote: »

So can anyone put together a coherent list of what they'd like a race to be like then for me ?

Personally, other racers who are on par with me so as to keep it competitive for me but that don't have the gumption to push it to the line and go all out

Basically an A5 group with experienced but equally unfit riders

daragh_

CramCycle wrote: »

Personally, other racers who are on par with me so as to keep it competitive for me but that don't have the gumption to push it to the line and go all out

Basically an A5 group with experienced but equally unfit riders

I object to your proposal on the grounds that I can.

NeedMoreGears

GMCI wrote: »

........

1: ... try Sportive cycling where a different part of the road traffic act governs (ie two abreast)...

2: Rider cameras are not permitted ......

re #1 - Does anyone know where in the RTA or related SIs are the rules for Cycle Racing set out (as distinct from the general law governing road use). Genuine question - the only provisions I can find relate to closed road events (SI190/63 s88).

CI seem to think that the RTA does apply (I infer that there are no special exemptions for cycle racing on open roads)

"You will hear this a lot at races. The roads are not closed to open road races in Ireland. If they are, you will be told about it. Treat how you conduct yourself on the bike, like how you would drive a car in relation to road positioning and passing other riders. After all you are another vehicle on the road where the Road Traffic Act does apply." - http://www.cyclingireland.ie/cycling-news-item/important-notice-for-road-racers-from-commissaires/143`


re #2 - could the mobile commisaire not have a camera if the riders are not permitted to carry them?

wexandproud

morana wrote: »

@gmci the video is there ask the college of commisars to go scrutinise it and suspend the offending plonkers/muppets or as I prefer riders.

totally agree . commisars should watch this video and make a few examples and it would set a precedent for the rest of the season before somebody is seriously hurt. there was a lad in a race a few years back hit a car while on wrong side of continues white line on a bend and when he recovered it was everyone's fault except his . people on here talking about the inherent dangers are in some ways correct , of course there is an element of risk but a lot of it could be eliminated if riders changed their behaviour .
i see no great problem if a guy crosses an unbroken line with a clear road ahead, but a lot of guys ,on hearing the shout 'car up' see it as a general call to move forward en masse.

spyderski

As far as I know, that's exactly the point, there are no special rules for cycle races (except in closed-road events). So basically, the normal rules of the road apply.

I'd have no issue with comms carrying cameras, in fact the only problem with cameras is fools posting incriminating evidence all over social media without thinking of the consequences. CI should come down like a ton of bricks on any rider with a go-pro or whatever this weekend. If it's not stamped out now we'll have dozens of riders posting stuff everywhere within weeks.

These videos are court-admissible evidence of multiple breaches of the RTA by identifiable individuals, in events organised by identifiable groups. Would people not think before posting this shyte for all the world to see?

Beasty

NeedMoreGears wrote: »

re #2 - could the mobile commisaire not have a camera if the riders are not permitted to carry them?

On the specific point of cameras, their use in identifying and dealing with "offences" within CI may be considered, but it's more down to rider behaviour. Don't stick on the wrong side of the road. Use it to move up when safe to do so, but racers need to understand that marshals cannot "control" traffic in any way

The other side of this is that a lot more people will video stuff from the side of the road anyway, but also increasingly from inside their cars. In the same way cyclists often try to highlight poor/illegal behaviour by motorists it's only a matter of time before some disgruntled motorists use their dashcams to highlight inconsiderate and possibly illegal behaviour by racers. Everyone really needs to understand this and race accordingly

NeedMoreGears

Beasty wrote: »

... racers need to understand that marshals cannot "control" traffic in any way...

I was thinking in terms something similar to being cited in rugby - such "evidence" could be used after the race when considering whether sanctions would be handed out. It may also have a deterrent effect if the use of video was announced beforehand.

wexandproud

Beasty wrote: »

On the specific point of cameras, their use in identifying and dealing with "offences" within CI may be considered, but it's more down to rider behaviour. Don't stick on the wrong side of the road. Use it to move up when safe to do so, but racers need to understand that marshals cannot "control" traffic in any way

The other side of this is that a lot more people will video stuff from the side of the road anyway, but also increasingly from inside their cars. In the same way cyclists often try to highlight poor/illegal behaviour by motorists it's only a matter of time before some disgruntled motorists use their dashcams to highlight inconsiderate and possibly illegal behaviour by racers. Everyone really needs to understand this and race accordingly

just imagine the damage that would be done to cycling if one of the cars meeting the bunch had a dashcam on sunday, the guards could have a field day

spyderski

wexandproud wrote: »

just imagine the damage that would be done to cycling if one of the cars meeting the bunch had a dashcam on sunday, the guards could have a field day

Or if riders posted it up on Facebook.....

daragh_

spyderski wrote: »

Or if riders posted it up on Facebook.....

So if nobody saw it it's all ok?

spyderski

No. But if nobody saw it its unlikely that the Gardai would be able to use the video as evidence when objecting to the staging of events. Or drivers using the video as evidence when/if there's an accident. Or other riders using the video as evidence to sue CI/race organisers when/if they are injured in a crash in a race.

You get the idea......

spyderski

Basically I'm not commenting on the rights or wrongs of rider behaviour, just highlighting the questionable wisdom of posting proof of such behaviour in public.

daragh_

Fair enough.

But this one is going to run and run. As mentioned upthread there are lots of cameras out there, regardless of riders filming themselves on GoPros. Take the asshat following Sean McKenna around last week for example.

spyderski

Yep, but that's outside racers control, no point making a rod to beat ourselves with. Feckin' cameras everywhere these days, you can get away with nothing ;-)

CramCycle

spyderski wrote: »

Yep, but that's outside racers control, no point making a rod to beat ourselves with. Feckin' cameras everywhere these days, you can get away with nothing ;-)

In the words of Ted: There was a time when the police in this country were friends of the c*****, speeding tickets torn up, drunk driving charges quashed, even a blind eye turned to the odd murder!

ROK ON

spyderski wrote: »

Or if riders posted it up on Facebook.....

Nothing to see here!
Stay silent.
Don't spit in the soup.
Omertà et al et al.

wav1

A few points

1 Race organisers only promote the event and supply the marshalls,safety cars.motomarshalls,etc.That's where their remit stops.They have no control over any sporting matters on the road,so its not an orhanisation issue.

2 Can anybody show me a single road race that takes place on our roads where riders are not on the wrong side of the road at some stage?

3 As was alluded to earlier if road closures are a must in NCD how are the planned events for late March and mid April going to go ahead?To the best of my knowledge at least one of them is DEFINITELY going ahead.

4 Everybody wants a safe envoirnment for the riders but its actually impossible to fit the field sizes in early season races on one side of some roads.If it becomes limited it will result in far higher entry fees and lots of disappointed riders particularly at this time of the year.

5 Keep saying it but promoters od road events are getting scarcer and number of riders are getting bigger,so be careful what you wish for.

Beasty

wav1 wrote: »

3 As was alluded to earlier if road closures are a must in NCD how are the planned events for late March and mid April going to go ahead?To the best of my knowledge at least one of them is DEFINITELY going ahead.

Not involved in any of the planning here but I presume the plan is to get closed roads (which the Council are happy to co-operate with, but creates a number of challenges nonetheless particularly as some of the "popular" circuits in the area use major roads and/or motorway intersections)

GMCI

Not a regular visitor to keep on top of feedback from the post I made last night.

@Lusk_Doyle , I do regret some of my comments (choice of phrases)but am also glad to have gotten my personal view across as it has given some very credible viewpoints from others.
This is boards.ie, what was posted is not the official line from CI and at no stage did I ever indicate that. Official lines from CI comes through press releases to the media and not directly onto forums. I certainly don't see myself as a decision maker. That's what the board is for.

@morana, it is not as simple of scrutinising the footage for infringements and imposing suspensions. Like I already said, the imposition of suspensions are not the responsibility of the College of Commissaires but of Provincial Executives. Such actions are not normally favourable with Provincial Executives because of possible recourse if proceedings are not carried out correctly and things could turn legal very quickly as there are no procedures for the use of video footage in identifying infringements in road races from cameras that are against the sporting regulatons of the sport as a result of being a non essential piece of equipment attached to the bike , or in this case the helmet. From your board experience, you should know how i's have to be dotted and T's crossed in relation to any change.

All cyclists at this weekends events and beyond will be scrutinised at the start by the Commissaires for such equipment and other non essential items, that numbers are visible and that both numbers are worn correctly and not defaced.

As Wav1 says below and I said already, it is all well and good demanding more cameras and change and stricter enforcement by Commissaires. But be careful what you wish for that will ensure all of the consequences Wav1 states above.
The control and Disqualification is very difficult and dangerous for Commissaires following behind in a car to undertake.
For the use of Moto Commissaires, here is a breakdown of how many there are in each province:
Leinster - 2
Munster - 0
Ulster - 3
Connacht - 1

So the bodies simply are not there to control it.

Rolling road closures have always been a compromise with the Councils/Gardaí in order to avoid a full road closure but organisers of events have often not put in place the suitable civilian escort cover to ensure a satisfactory Rolling Road Closure for the number of minutes to allow a peloton to pass. The rolling road closure is preferable due to cost issues and also minimising the effect of delays/diversions to the local public.

I have multiple ideas and recommendations to ensure the standard of events is raised enough to match the demand from entrants. These ideas involve a significant increase in the organisation of events by organisers with more resources and also a number of concessions on the part of cyclists. It would be a total change in how events are managed and the racing ability of those taking part in the events. The result, safer racing but most likely at a cost increase in entrance fees.

fat bloke

I'm not sure what all this legalese is for. If numbers are used to identify riders who cross finish lines 1st, 2nd & third to award points and prizes, then why can't those same numbers be used to identify riders who cross continuous white lines to impose warnings and sanctions??

ROK ON

A lot of the debate in the issue is: don't ask/don't tell, it's not my responsibility (insert comms/organisers/CI here). I do not believe that any of this is credible.

There is a tradition that cycling races occur on open roads and there is another tradition that many riders occupy the entire road in breach of the road traffic laws. Any organiser or governing body that knows of this and does nothing much about it would in all likelihood be held liable should an event materialised that was caused by riding across the road.

If my car was hit I know how I would be taking legal action against. If I was the law abiding racer that was put into the ditch because of riders illegally riding were forced back into the correct side then again I knownwho I would be suing.
Governing bodies exist in all sports to set the ground rules - if they knowingly turn a blind eye to illegal behaviour then they are an accomplice in my view.

The argument trotted out of be careful what you wish for is laced with intent but is a straw man. In many parts of the country locals will be aware of races and will accommodate those - that does not mean that a car should end up in a ditch to accommodate cyclists coming against him that will not move to their own side of the road. In the past few years I have gad to take evasive action while driving on a road used by a leading race. In the same race the following year my daughter was almost trampled as a rider decided that the best way thrusting was in the footpath (in this case a Marshall roared at the rider). This behaviour is unacceptable and should in my view lead to expulsion from a race.

GMCI

Ultimately the cyclists are responsible for their own actions on the public road, from positioning to turning at junctions, where the marshal is there to indicate direction with no authority to stop traffic.

To suggest that Comms, Organisers and CI are all liable is ludicrous. If an incident happens on the road, between rider and car or even car against car, it is deemed a Road Traffic Incident between the two parties involved. If the scenario is that a rider or vehicle collided with an oncoming vehicle because the they were on the wrong side of the road, the rider or vehicle on that side of the road is held liable. It is a Road Traffic Incident, Gardaí are called and the incident is dealt with at the side of the road and beyond between concerned parties. This is fact and has occurred on multiple occasions nationwide.

The culture of "Sue everyone" because of sporting incidents in the nature of a sport like this on open roads where risk to riders is greater is what will be the final straw for the sport so Im sure there will be a queue of thank you's thereafter when insurance premiums go up and in turn so do all of your licences. Attitudes like that are thrashing all sports these days. 21st Century problems.

@fatbloke - it is not about the identifying of the rider and passing the suspension. If a rider feels aggrieved by the fact that he was suspended, he will investigate the circumstances and realise that CI Tech Regulations give no permission for recording devices in the peloton and as such may attempt to have the case thrown out or even take the legal avenue against the Provincial Executive based on the fact that the evidence used to suspend should not have been active in the first place. Its one thing saying suspend them all, its another in making the Disciplinary cases stick. Much more difficult than you think .

GMCI

ROK ON wrote: »

Nothing to see here!
Stay silent.
Don't spit in the soup.
Omertà et al et al.

Oh Please.

Can you not see that yes there may be issues to be rectified within the sport and if there is any love for the sport at all, why the hell would you publicise it for the whole world to see and get involved in, without it being rectified internally first.

Lusk_Doyle

^So why can't the rules be changed to allow this then?

Edit: Not referring to the post immediately above, but the one above that.

morana

GMCI wrote: »

Not a regular visitor to keep on top of feedback from the post I made last night.

@Lusk_Doyle , I do regret some of my comments (choice of phrases)but am also glad to have gotten my personal view across as it has given some very credible viewpoints from others.
This is boards.ie, what was posted is not the official line from CI and at no stage did I ever indicate that. Official lines from CI comes through press releases to the media and not directly onto forums. I certainly don't see myself as a decision maker. That's what the board is for.

@morana, it is not as simple of scrutinising the footage for infringements and imposing suspensions. Like I already said, the imposition of suspensions are not the responsibility of the College of Commissaires but of Provincial Executives. Such actions are not normally favourable with Provincial Executives because of possible recourse if proceedings are not carried out correctly and things could turn legal very quickly as there are no procedures for the use of video footage in identifying infringements in road races from cameras that are against the sporting regulatons of the sport as a result of being a non essential piece of equipment attached to the bike , or in this case the helmet. From your board experience, you should know how i's have to be dotted and T's crossed in relation to any change.

All cyclists at this weekends events and beyond will be scrutinised at the start by the Commissaires for such equipment and other non essential items, that numbers are visible and that both numbers are worn correctly and not defaced.

As Wav1 says below and I said already, it is all well and good demanding more cameras and change and stricter enforcement by Commissaires. But be careful what you wish for that will ensure all of the consequences Wav1 states above.
The control and Disqualification is very difficult and dangerous for Commissaires following behind in a car to undertake.
For the use of Moto Commissaires, here is a breakdown of how many there are in each province:
Leinster - 2
Munster - 0
Ulster - 3
Connacht - 1

So the bodies simply are not there to control it.

Rolling road closures have always been a compromise with the Councils/Gardaí in order to avoid a full road closure but organisers of events have often not put in place the suitable civilian escort cover to ensure a satisfactory Rolling Road Closure for the number of minutes to allow a peloton to pass. The rolling road closure is preferable due to cost issues and also minimising the effect of delays/diversions to the local public.

I have multiple ideas and recommendations to ensure the standard of events is raised enough to match the demand from entrants. These ideas involve a significant increase in the organisation of events by organisers with more resources and also a number of concessions on the part of cyclists. It would be a total change in how events are managed and the racing ability of those taking part in the events. The result, safer racing but most likely at a cost increase in entrance fees.

I think it is as simple as " look here you were disobeying the rotr in our race therefore you are getting a warning". I still can't find where the provinces fit into this and believe me I am sure I have read every policy from CI as well as the tech regs. maybe I am missing it.

anyway it doesn't matter. I don't really care.

GMCI

Lusk_Doyle wrote: »

^So why can't the rules be changed to allow this then?

Edit: Not referring to the post immediately above, but the one above that.

They can do, but it doesn't just happen at the stroke of a pen. Motions at AGMs or through proposals to the Board, consultation periods etc and they may still wait and put it forward at an AGM. Its all back to the Administrative procedures for rule changes. They simply take time and again need to be spearheaded by a particular club. I would reckon CI are still unaware to an extent of the seriousness of the problem.

Morana, I know traditionally that any discipline cases are referred to the Provincial Executive to set up a hearing. I know the Discipline section of the Regs changed in recent years. AFAIK it still goes to the Province as there were a couple of suspensions by various provinces in 2014.

ROK ON

GMCI wrote: »

Oh Please.

Can you not see that yes there may be issues to be rectified within the sport and if there is any love for the sport at all, why the hell would you publicise it for the whole world to see and get involved in, without it being rectified internally first.

I haven't publicised anything. I was responding to this insane suggestion that it is no ones business outside the sport. This is clearly a blind spot for the sport. If there is an issue no one seems interested in doing anything about it. The riders here who have raised the issue have in my view been responded to in a pejorative fashion. All of this is problematic.

If this is going to solved in the sport then those who promote/marshal/ referee and govern the sport have responsibility in addition to riders having responsibility.
Nothing that I have seen suggest that there is any will in the sport to address illegality. I the that the NCD issue has been handled poorly an pd thankfully it seems to be isolated as an incident. But that is not to say it will stay isolated.

In marshalling a race a few years back I was very politely approached by a gentleman enquiring as to where he could complain. He had two issues - (1) the circuit was used too much he wanted it used a lot less but was supportive races maybe once a month, (2) he observed too much illegal road behaviour and wanted it stopped.
The guy raced motor bikes as a hobby and claimed not to be a killjoy. He stated he had not objection to occasional races.
The real issue for him was he wanted fewer races on a particular circuit, but his stick to beat the sport was illegality witnessed every week for several years.
That made a big impression in me because this was the first time I was faced with a cogent and polite objector as opposed to the occasional crank roaring at passing cyclists or trying to squeeze thru when a marshal has advised of an oncoming race.
If the sport doesn't sort this then the risk is that it is taken out of our control. The present approach doesn't suggest that the sport is serious about the issue.

wav1

Organisers always seem to get the blame regardless.Had a poster on here about 12 months ago having a go about a race we ran when 20 riders crashed on a straight stretch of road on their own side and somehow the organisation were responsible.

GMCI

ROK ON wrote: »

I haven't publicised anything. I was responding to this insane suggestion that it is no ones business outside the sport. This is clearly a blind spot for the sport. If there is an issue no one seems interested in doing anything about it. The riders here who have raised the issue have in my view been responded to in a pejorative fashion. All of this is problematic.

If this is going to solved in the sport then those who promote/marshal/ referee and govern the sport have responsibility in addition to riders having responsibility.
Nothing that I have seen suggest that there is any will in the sport to address illegality. I the that the NCD issue has been handled poorly an pd thankfully it seems to be isolated as an incident. But that is not to say it will stay isolated.

In marshalling a race a few years back I was very politely approached by a gentleman enquiring as to where he could complain. He had two issues - (1) the circuit was used too much he wanted it used a lot less but was supportive races maybe once a month, (2) he observed too much illegal road behaviour and wanted it stopped.
The guy raced motor bikes as a hobby and claimed not to be a killjoy. He stated he had not objection to occasional races.
The real issue for him was he wanted fewer races on a particular circuit, but his stick to beat the sport was illegality witnessed every week for several years.
That made a big impression in me because this was the first time I was faced with a cogent and polite objector as opposed to the occasional crank roaring at passing cyclists or trying to squeeze thru when a marshal has advised of an oncoming race.
If the sport doesn't sort this then the risk is that it is taken out of our control. The present approach doesn't suggest that the sport is serious about the issue.

Apologies, I wasn't insinuating you directly publicising it. Just poor typing on my part.

I do believe CI are very much aware of all the issues as a result of NCD and I do agree that I don't think anyone is inclined to take a lead on it.

While it is easy for the riders on boards to want change with all the aforementioned suggestions, there are procedures as to how to go about looking for this. It is not as simple as change this and that and hope for the best.
For such a massive change, ALL stakeholders would need to be consulted to determine the best route forward. Stakeholders such as riders, organisers (a massive stakeholder) local authorities and gardai and then find a mutual path to take. Biggest problem there is satisfying all stakeholders as much as possible for the best outcome for all.

PeadarCo

GMCI wrote: »

Oh Please.

Can you not see that yes there may be issues to be rectified within the sport and if there is any love for the sport at all, why the hell would you publicise it for the whole world to see and get involved in, without it being rectified internally first.

Because its a debate that needs to be had for the future of the sport and the debate impacts more than just cycling Ireland members.

The issue with dangerous racer behaviour such as being over the white line going around a bend is that it puts random members of the public at risk. Grand racing is dangerous, so is riding a bike, everyone who signs on accepts that risk, random bystanders/road users don't.

Its those members of the public we rely on to run races on open roads. Certain circuits particularly around the greater Dublin area are used regularly in club leagues, open races, vet races. All it takes is a few people objecting to shut those races as the situation in North County Dublin demonstrates. Even last year the interclub league had issues running races towards the end of the season due to locals simply getting sick of different clubs using there area for races. And that's with cycling do nothing wrong.

All it takes is one big accident to go viral in the news and suddenly Cycling Ireland has to deal with it.

I think the points you've raised are valid. Extra safety means more expenses/smaller fields(less race fees) which isn't exactly easy for race organisers who by all accounts break-even on races only if they are very lucky.

But for people to make an informed decision people need to given even a rough idea of the time(extra volunteers) and pure money for extra safety equipment and training for marshals and commissars.