Landlord sent me Irish Water pack to register

foggy_lad

beauf wrote: »

That the LL will or won't be responsible hasn't been officially clarified.

I'd agree that its too early to take preventative measures. But it was predictable outcome of the disinformation in the media by a variety of parties.

The point of a business is usually to get the maximum return. Its like trying to criticize a shop for charging for milk.

Yes it has been clarified. Irish water are a utility same as bord gais, electric Ireland, airtricity etc etc

They have no rights to seek anything from people who are not their customers! the landlord ceases to be their customer once they inform the utility that the house is rented and gives the name of the tenant.

this gets madly complicated though because of the way this whole disaster was implemented!
what if your rented house has one meter but several tenants? or what about apartments where there is only one meter per block or even one meter for the whole apartment scheme?

Irish Water will never be able to sort this mess as it was terminal before its inception. it needs to be scrapped and a water charge brought in for every person but this would not suit either as it is not based on usage as demanded by our bailout bankers.

beauf

foggy_lad wrote: »

Yes it has been clarified. Irish water are a utility same as bord gais, electric Ireland, airtricity etc...

In what legislation has it been clarified.

foggy_lad

beauf wrote: »

In what legislation has it been clarified.

All the current legislation relating to private utility companies.

Remember that this company while operated by state workers is still nothing more than a company offering a service and governed by the same laws and rules.


Are the other utility companies allowed to chase you for your tenants unpaid ulility bills? NO they most certainly are not!

Government being quite sneaky and untruthful will lead us to believe that they have such powers and that they can go after your house or even follow you to the grave but it is not the case.

If this was a form of tax then yes they could take it from our wages or other avenues and also from the estates of the deceased but it is not a tax.

beauf

foggy_lad wrote: »

Yes it has been clarified....

If its been clarified, what need is there for this....

Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I will be seeking Government approval shortly to publish the Water Services Bill 2015 which will provide for a number of outstanding issues relating to the water charges package I announced on 19 November 2014. These matters were not included in the Water Services Act 2014 due to the requirement for additional consultations to take place with stakeholders. The Bill will, in the main, make provision for addressing any unpaid water bills relating to domestic property including privately owned and occupied property, private rented accommodation and local authority rented accommodation.

https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2015-01-27a.1152#g1154.r

foggy_lad

beauf wrote: »

If its been clarified, what need is there for this....



https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2015-01-27a.1152#g1154.r

So this means they will have a legislative framework for sending out letters demanding payment and then taking tenants and other "customers" to court for non payment!

They can't charge you for a debt owed by me!

really all that whole piece is just a load of old cobblers from the worst kind of politician. this is the same minister who got precious railway funding pumped into providing services on the Nenagh branch line which benefits nobody but got him some support in the area.

The_Morrigan

foggy_lad wrote: »

So this means they will have a legislative framework for sending out letters demanding payment and then taking tenants and other "customers" to court for non payment!

They can't charge you for a debt owed by me!

really all that whole piece is just a load of old cobblers from the worst kind of politician. this is the same minister who got precious railway funding pumped into providing services on the Nenagh branch line which benefits nobody but got him some support in the area.

What in the name of God has a railway line in Tipperary got to do with this forum?
There is already one mod warning to stay on topic in this thread, if you can't adhere to it don't post.

JCDUB

The_Conductor wrote: »

JCDUB- you haven't been listening to any of the Irish Water representatives on the radio lately?

Here's some text from the threshold website, link as follows:

http://www.threshold.ie/advice/dealing-with-problems-during-your-tenancy/water-charges/

Who is responsible for payment in private rented accommodation?

On 15th October 2014 the following clarification was posted on the Irish Water website www.water.ie

If you rent a property, you are responsible for the payment of the water charges for that property and should register with Irish Water in order to claim your allowances.
If you own a property that is unoccupied you are responsible for payment of the water charges and should register with Irish Water to ensure you are charged the ‘unoccupied’ rate.
If you have a tenant in a property, the tenant is responsible for the payment of the water charge and should register with Irish Water in order to claim their relevant allowances.
If the tenant has not registered with Irish Water, Irish Water will contact the property owner to ensure that the responsible party (ie the tenant) receives the bill. Irish Water will announce details of this shortly.
Should the tenant move out of the property without closing the account, the tenant remains responsible for the payment and Irish Water will follow this up in the standard ways.

beauf

The problem is that threshold, IW and the politicians, have a habit of stating's opinions as fact, to suit their own agenda. Not to mention u turns after the fact.

There hasn't to my knowledge been any specific legislation for IW that covers LLs, and no official statement from the Govt.

So we're either assuming the existing legislation will remain, or that new legislation will be created to clarify it.

Personally I would refuse any charge or increase relating to water charges until this all of this clarified. If a LL increases the rent, or deposit. It would have to be in accordance with the existing rental legislation. Anything else it is likely to end up at the PRTB.

Grandpa Hassan

Is it any wonder that the misleading and conflicting information posted by all the different bodies involved in this is resulting in LLs wanting to cover their ass? I certainly want to. Worst case....I get stung by the bill that the tenant should have paid. Best case....I have to chase around trying to prove to IW I don't live in my house when the tenant doesn't register. I really don't be wanting to do either.

_Brian

JCDUB wrote: »

The poorly implemented policy has not resulted in increased rent on tenants, you have.

Way to sting the tenant again. Why would you increase your rent as a precautionary measure against a bill you can't be charged for?

This is the responsibility of the tenant and not the landlord, something you would be aware of if you cared about the welfare of your tenants.

Alas, all you care about is how much you can squeeze out of your properties.

I'm workin off the information supplied to me by IW.
I happen to expect the current tennants will be leaving this year, their rent has not changed in five years because they have been good tennants.

IW informed me that if te tennant doesn't pay them the LL is responsible. I don't supply a public service nor social housing. I need to ensure the charge against the property is sufficiently covered. This is a commercial decision.

If IW had told me that the charge would follow the tennant then I wouldn't add it to te rent, but I see no reason I should be exposed to the risk if an additional bill. So many people are saying that they won't pay on principal, I can't take the chance that I'll be lumbered with a bill based on a tennants "principals". I already pay for my own water and sewage, why should I pay for theirs.

anncoates

punisher5112 wrote: »

Hold this is disgraceful coming from a landlord.

If the bills are the tenants then why would rent have to be increased that is just poor ll liabilities and rights that one would have.

If a tenant leaves owing esb or gas this will follow them to next property.


Its one thing after another in Ireland tax this that and the rest. Rents pushed up.
No rent relief, having been pushed out of Dublin with huge rents its crazy.

Why should a landlord be lumbered with your water bills if you decide not to register and pay for them yourself?

Patrickof

foggy_lad wrote: »

...

They can't charge you for a debt owed by me!

.....

And therein lies the problem.

Until the tenant (and it appears for now), that only the tenant, contacts IW to put their name on the account, then it remains in the LLs name. IW will not accept what is essentially a 3rd party submitting the tenants details in order to open an account.

In fact, all utilites work this way, a LL cannot sign up a tenant to elec or gas without the utility confirming it with the tenant directly.

TheChizler

Patrickof wrote: »

In fact, all utilites work this way, a LL cannot sign up a tenant to elec or gas without the utility confirming it with the tenant directly.

Happened to us! Landlord signed us up to Bord Gáis for a few days when we were already with Electric Ireland. Ignored it as we had two bills covering the same period from two different companies, and the Bord Gáis bill basically said 0 units used times Y cent a unit plus 73 c standing charge = €21, so we put it down to an error on their part and paid the bill from the company we actually had signed up for.

Having trouble with the ex-landlord-agency at the moment wrt IW bills at the moment actually. They're withholding the deposit until I provide them with proof that I registered. I did, and will pay, and had an over-the-phone confirmation from them but have no documentation to back it up. The agency say it's in their policy to ask for proof, and it is since January, but wasn't when we signed the lease. I'm trying to convince them that the landlord is not liable for tenants' bills but they're having none of it. IW haven't got back to me but at this stage even if I had written correspondence I don't see why I should have to prove anything to the agency, they don't need it for other utilities and it wasn't one of the conditions when we moved in.

beauf

I've seen it the other way tenant transferred it back to the LL. Also seen the utility company a transfer an unpaid bill from a tenant to bill on another property owned by the LL. Neither thing should be possible.

punisher5112

anncoates wrote: »

Why should a landlord be lumbered with your water bills if you decide not to register and pay for them yourself?

Simple really the LL is not going to be stuck with the bill.

Only time a LL would be stuck with a bill is if they are not renting the property out.

Its not very hard to understand and see what's going on here.
LL see €€€ signs rolling in front of their eyes.

If the tenancy is registered and you have proof there are tenants or were in the property what would any of you be worrying about.

Grandpa Hassan

punisher5112 wrote: »

Simple really the LL is not going to be stuck with the bill.

Only time a LL would be stuck with a bill is if they are not renting the property out.

Its not very hard to understand and see what's going on here.
LL see €€€ signs rolling in front of their eyes.

If the tenancy is registered and you have proof there are tenants or were in the property what would any of you be worrying about.

Hang on....where are the €€€€€ signs if the rent is increased by the amount of the water charge, and the LL pays the water charge???

That's what I'm doing. Not a penny more.

I ask you....how does the tenant lose out in this situation? Unless you have no intention of registering.....

Actually, it should be easier for you....no hassle in registering and reregistering, and guarantee that you only pay for water for the period of time you're renting the house

MrMorooka

From http://www.thejournal.ie/irish-water-live-1945809-Feb2015/

The occupier is considered the resident of a house. Irish Water is contacting landlords directly to say “come forward and talk to us and we’ll make sure the occupier of your property is the person we engage with going forward”, Arnett tells us.
Are you a landlord? Talk to the tenant first – and get in touch with Irish Water if you want more info.
As it stands, the landlord is liable unless an occupier says they’re living there and will deal with the bill. The landlord can give Irish Water the occupier’s name so they can be contacted.

The main thing is the tenant is responsible for the charge. If they leave, Irish Water needs to know about this change.
They will pursue the debt with whoever is responsible, ie the tenant.
That’s how it stands at the moment.
What about if there are multiple tenants?
You nominate who is the person whose name will go on the bill, they pay the conservation grant.
You put the same arrangement in place as other utility bills

beauf

The LL shouldn't be a middleman for utilities.

Its a terrible approach. Open to abuse by LL and tenant. Which is why its good practise not to do it.

beauf

MrMorooka wrote: »

From http://www.thejournal.ie/irish-water-live-1945809-Feb2015/

Yeah they also said...

http://www.thejournal.ie/irish-water-bill-pay-1911794-Jan2015/

New legislation will place certain obligations on a landlord where a tenant has not paid charges.

Also created a fuss about deadlines, which weren't deadlines at all.

So just a bit of info that might be of interest to some, particularly on the LL being liable etc.

Now this may not be the case for everyone but I rang up today to register (our pack was thrown away by a previous house mate) and the house was already registered to the LL. As far as I'm aware the LL did not register himself as he asked me to register therefore it appears it was automatically registered in the property owners name.

I changed it over to my name over the phone then, it was straightforward enough.

The_Conductor

Lisa Thoughtless Self-consciousness wrote: »

So just a bit of info that might be of interest to some, particularly on the LL being liable etc.

Now this may not be the case for everyone but I rang up today to register (our pack was thrown away by a previous house mate) and the house was already registered to the LL. As far as I'm aware the LL did not register himself as he asked me to register therefore it appears it was automatically registered in the property owners name.

I changed it over to my name over the phone then, it was straightforward enough.

This is what they said they were doing- but numerous of us got trashed for highlighting- over on the main thread. If the tenant doesn't register- where IW can find the name of the owner of the property (not difficult) the default action on their part is to register it in the name of the owner of the property........

They have said they were doing this- umpteen times- anytime its highlighted whoever brings attention to it- gets pooh-pooh'ed by everyone here.

The_Conductor

The_Conductor wrote: »

This is what they said they were doing- but numerous of us got trashed for highlighting- over on the main thread. If the tenant doesn't register- where IW can find the name of the owner of the property (not difficult) the default action on their part is to register it in the name of the owner of the property........

They have said they were doing this- umpteen times- anytime its highlighted whoever brings attention to it- gets pooh-pooh'ed by everyone here.

I hadn't been following the other thread very closely so hadn't read too much on this but I also read so many saying it wouldn't happen I wasn't sure what to expect when I rang up so I thought it was worth highlighting what happened in my situation.

beauf

Is the LL allowed give the tenants name to the IW.

boardsuser1

beauf wrote: »

Is the LL allowed give the tenants name to the IW.

Would that not be a possible data protection issue if it's without consent going on the current legislation?

beauf

That would my thinking as well. Considering the fuss about the PPS numbers. I assume the LL should just ring up and say the house is rented out. But whats to stop people with vacancy properties doing the same thing. If a tenant has not registered, they may be doing so deliberately as a protest. Then thats an issue between them and IW/Govt. The LL shouldn't be in the middle of it.

boardsuser1

beauf wrote: »

That would my thinking as well. Considering the fuss about the PPS numbers. I assume the LL should just ring up and say the house is rented out. But whats to stop people with vacancy properties doing the same thing. If a tenant has not registered, they may be doing so deliberately as a protest. Then thats an issue between them and IW/Govt. The LL shouldn't be in the middle of it.

I reckon that the amount of non registrations is more than what they are saying, the landlord should not be a middle man I whole heartedly agree, I fear the government will go down the same road as the property tax and bring in the revenue to collect, they won't start chasing people until July 2016 however (after the general election is out of the way)

obsidianclock

I'm very lucky I suppose that my partner's landlady doesn't know my name!

Bob24

KC161 wrote: »

fear the government will go down the same road as the property tax and bring in the revenue to collect

The LPT is a tax - it was always going to be the revenue's role to collect it.

Water charges have been called a tax by some people to push their political agenda, but they aren't one. I very much doubt the revenue will be involved in this, they have absolutely no mandate to collect debt owned to Irish Water.

The_Conductor

Bob24 wrote: »

The LPT is a tax - it was always going to be the revenue's role to collect it.

Water charges have been called a tax by some people to push their political agenda, but they aren't one. I very much doubt the revenue will be involved in this, they have absolutely no mandate to collect debt owned to Irish Water.

+1
The local property tax- is a tax.
Irish water- are the supplier of a utility- water........
This has been very carefully wall-papered over by a large proportion of water protestors- and deliberately misunderstood by others..........

None of us like paying extra taxes- and water- is a utility that was supplied through the exchequer previously (through disbursements to the local authorities). Those disbursements have wound down- and if people want them to continue- they have to accept that there is a price to pay for it- through taxation or charges of some nature- to fund the provision of water and water treatment services.

boardsuser1

Bob24 wrote: »

The LPT is a tax - it was always going to be the revenue's role to collect it.

Water charges have been called a tax by some people to push their political agenda, but they aren't one. I very much doubt the revenue will be involved in this, they have absolutely no mandate to collect debt owned to Irish Water.

I don't disagree with you, I'm against water charges myself, the reason i mentioned revenue is because how else can they forcefully extract money from people those who can't /won't pay, the government isn't intending to act until July 2016 from what I've read