Why 30 km/h speed limits are important in the context of Jake's Legacy vigil

monument

MGWR wrote: »

Consider further the additional auto emissions this will result in.

Not according to research in this areas:

Research in Germany has shown that the greater the speed of vehicles in built-up areas, the higher is the incidence of acceleration, deceleration, and braking, all of which increase air pollution. German research indicates that traffic calming reduces idle times by 15%, gear changing by 12%, brake use by 14%, and gasoline use by 12% (Newman and Kenworthy 1992, 39–40). This slower and calmer style of driving reduces emissions, as demonstrated by an evaluation in Buxtehude, Germany. Table E-1 shows the relative change in emissions and fuel use when the speed limit is cut from 50kmh (31mph) to 30kmh (19mph) for two different driving styles. Even aggressive driving under the slower speed limit produces lower emissions (but higher fuel use) than under the higher speed limit, although calm driving produces greater reductions for most emissions and net fuel savings (Newman and Kenworthy 1992, 39 –40).

http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=9676&page=369#p20003296ttt00035

via http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2010/apr/19/ask-leo-20mph-speed-limits-pollution

beauf

MGWR wrote: »

Absurdly low speed limit. Converting back into imperial units, that's a mere 18.6 miles per hour, no faster than a horse's trot, and not very friendly to cars' engines or gearboxes never mind fuel economy. Is it really so that Ireland's newer generations are not taught to stay on the footpath? because everyone I knew during my youth had no problems following the rules of the road while walking.

And if main roads remain at 30 mph (50 km/h), there will be yet more visits to the auto repairman.

Enough Luddism. And enough of demanding the government make things "eejit-proof".

It a bit ironic to expect kids to obey the rules, when adults won't.
http://www.rsa.ie/Documents/Road%20Safety/Speed/Speed_survey_2011.pdf

Data from the 2006 Census reveals that, for journeys within the Dublin Canal Ring, cyclists reached an average speed of 12 km/h compared to just 15km/h for cars.
For trips within the M50, the 2006 Census reveals average speed for cyclists of 14km/h compared to 18km/h for cars.
In 2009 average bus speed across the city were recorded to be at 16.61km/h.

That said it seems to be a pointless to set limits if they are not enforced.

It also seems to be a unrealistic, to ignore human nature, and the lack of options to the car for many people.

Likewise people need to stop driving like morons through suburbs/estates.

patrickbrophy18

the groutch wrote: »

I don't mean those types of speed ramps, I mean the kind of ones which are on Avondale Road and Oliver Plunkett Road. The yellow and black ones in that picture are absolutely horrible even at 5-10 KM/H. The kind found on Avondale Road and Oliver Plunkett Road coupled with horizontal deflections every 50 meters would make for good traffic calming measures in enclosed housing estates and cul de sacs.

Iwannahurl

MGWR wrote: »

Absurdly low speed limit. Converting back into imperial units, that's a mere 18.6 miles per hour

...

Enough Luddism.

Quite.

MGWR wrote: »

And enough of demanding the government make things "eejit-proof".

The real eejits, and the most dangerous ones, are those drivers who can not or will not slow down. If there weren't so many of them, low speed limits and traffic calming would not be required. Self-explanatory really.

expectationlost

ok here are the docs for pilot roads for 30kph speed limits for the balbriggan swords area item 78

http://137.191.240.179/ieListDocuments.aspx?CId=122&MID=4255#AI14500


Proposed 30kph pilot speed limits main document
Boroimhe Swords
The Chantries Balrothery
Ridgewood Swords
Tayleurs Point Rush
Dun Emer Lusk
St Cronan’s Ave Swords

looked at each of these on google maps they all look fairly self contained.
Additional documents:
Speed limit 30kph recommended balswo acm may 2015
Speed limit 30kph balswo 2015 spc april submissions so where did they ask and not get? I'll have to read through again and see
30kmhr sign they are going to call them slow zones and use that symbol aarrrrgggghhhh
DTTAS Guidlines 30km Extract

Pie Eater

MGWR wrote: »

Converting back into imperial units, that's a mere 18.6 miles per hour, no faster than a horse's trot

Incorrect.

Can't post a link as a new user, but you can google it for yourself.

BoatMad

Pie Eater wrote: »

Incorrect.

Can't post a link as a new user, but you can google it for yourself.

Huh 30 k is 18.6 miles ????

Average horse trotting speed 17 mph

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse_gait

??????

Iwannahurl

And this affects child safety how?

BoatMad

Iwannahurl wrote: »

And this affects child safety how?

trotting horses can be dangerous :pac:

expectationlost

BoatMad wrote: »

Huh 30 k is 18.6 miles ????

Average horse trotting speed 17 mph

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse_gait

??????

its says Trot
"averages about 8 miles per hour (13 km/h)" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse_gait

BoatMad

expectationlost wrote: »

its says Trot
"averages about 8 miles per hour (13 km/h)" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse_gait

OK a " cantering " horse

Pie Eater

Iwannahurl wrote: »

And this affects child safety how?

The point is that a person who is arguing against new speed limits was wrong about a particular speed by approximately 130% and was quoting figures that a simple Google search would show as incorrect.

frozenfrozen

it's a cluster-**** of it's-somebody-elses-fault. there should be a new sign "Lose the view, lose the speed" if the speed limit is 20 then people will do 20 if the speed limit is "travel at the speed you'd be willing to hit a child" people will probably choose they'd rather not hit a child at all. If the limit is 20 and someone kills a child while doing 20, then who's fault is it? just changing the speed limit isn't going to remove the issue at all.

the amount of accidents would go down if the limit was upped to 120kmh, children would be more likely to stay away from the road and the drivers would be ****ting it paying 100% attention not texting or looking around like they would at 20kmph, or worse, staring at the damn speedo trying to keep the car going 20

It would be much more effective to fix this through design. Why are the kids and cars relying on the same space? it's a recipe for disaster from the word go. Why are cars parking at the side of the road if that's where children are running out from and being hit because they're obstructed.

Why just a speed limit and not a stopping distance limit or level of concentration limit? Speed limit means **** all for safety if you don't notice you've hit the child until you see them in the rear view mirror.

Teach kids to never run out onto the road, teach drivers to pay 100% attention and do a speed that you can come to a complete stop from in the distance to the nearest obstruction where a child could run out from. teach everyone around the area not to park cars in a way that kids could run out from behind them straight onto the road. teach parents not to let their kids run across the road in front of a car. if the child is too young to understand this concept then what are you doing leaving them next to a road.

schemingbohemia

frozenfrozen wrote: »

it's a cluster-**** of it's-somebody-elses-fault. there should be a new sign "Lose the view, lose the speed" if the speed limit is 20 then people will do 20 if the speed limit is "travel at the speed you'd be willing to hit a child" people will probably choose they'd rather not hit a child at all. If the limit is 20 and someone kills a child while doing 20, then who's fault is it? just changing the speed limit isn't going to remove the issue at all.

the amount of accidents would go down if the limit was upped to 120kmh, children would be more likely to stay away from the road and the drivers would be ****ting it paying 100% attention not texting or looking around like they would at 20kmph, or worse, staring at the damn speedo trying to keep the car going 20

It would be much more effective to fix this through design. Why are the kids and cars relying on the same space? it's a recipe for disaster from the word go. Why are cars parking at the side of the road if that's where children are running out from and being hit because they're obstructed.

Why just a speed limit and not a stopping distance limit or level of concentration limit? Speed limit means **** all for safety if you don't notice you've hit the child until you see them in the rear view mirror.

Teach kids to never run out onto the road, teach drivers to pay 100% attention and do a speed that you can come to a complete stop from in the distance to the nearest obstruction where a child could run out from. teach everyone around the area not to park cars in a way that kids could run out from behind them straight onto the road. teach parents not to let their kids run across the road in front of a car. if the child is too young to understand this concept then what are you doing leaving them next to a road.

So basically lock all kids up and build huge multi-story car parks?

frozenfrozen

schemingbohemia wrote: »

So basically lock all kids up and build huge multi-story car parks?

no that's a terrible idea

Carawaystick

expectationlost wrote: »

ok here are the docs for pilot roads for 30kph speed limits for the balbriggan swords area item 78

...

Dun Emer Lusk

looked at each of these on google maps they all look fairly self contained.
Additional documents:

There's 4 ways into this estate. 1 of them is in an 80 kmh zone, and another is in a 60 kmh zone, with no 50 speed limit signs. It might be better to fix this first...

schemingbohemia

frozenfrozen wrote: »

no that's a terrible idea

well then please explain your idea a bit better because that's what I read from it.

frozenfrozen

schemingbohemia wrote: »

well then please explain your idea a bit better because that's what I read from it.

give a proper reply highlighting & quoting the bits you don't understand, you tried to give a cheeky answer to be funny and it fell flat, I don't have much patience for that kind of stuff outside of after hours so if you'd like to change my opinion by having a debate then I'm all for it, but you'll need to put in a bit of effort.

expectationlost

Carawaystick wrote: »

There's 4 ways into this estate. 1 of them is in an 80 kmh zone, and another is in a 60 kmh zone, with no 50 speed limit signs. It might be better to fix this first...

i see 3, the entrance near glebe house has a creche right at the entrance and I saw what looked like non-official 10 mph sign and caution children signs there https://www.google.ie/maps/place/Dun+Emer+Ave,+Lusk,+Co.+Dublin,+Ireland/@53.5266153,-6.178663,17z/data=!4m2!3m1!1s0x486719cf1a99957b:0xa8dc0202a3200b0

didn't see speed signs on any of the other entrances

Carawaystick

Kilhedge lane. The speed limit sign is 60 at Newtowncorduff.

There were consultations last year and I hilighted these anomolies, but nothing was done. There's also bit on the Skerries road where the limit increases to 80 in front of the lusk village estate and then there's a speedramp...
https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.529259,-6.166169,3a,75y,6.87h,84.44t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1skIC1M38sqTOSH8HEww9U0A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

expectationlost

Carawaystick wrote: »

Kilhedge lane. The speed limit sign is 60 at Newtowncorduff.

There were consultations last year and I hilighted these anomolies, but nothing was done. There's also bit on the Skerries road where the limit increases to 80 in front of the lusk village estate and then there's a speedramp...
https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.529259,-6.166169,3a,75y,6.87h,84.44t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1skIC1M38sqTOSH8HEww9U0A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

what consultation did you respond to?

3 Lusk submissions in here
http://137.191.240.179/documents/s14552/Item%2078%20Speed%20limit%2030kph%20balswo%202015%20spc%20april%20submissions.pdf

Carawaystick

It was a general speed limit consultation. fcc proposed a few changes such as making the whole route from Lusk to Rush 60, and from Corduff to Blakes X, 60 amoung others

zl1whqvjs75cdy

Just on the point of kids and cars sharing the same space. I live in an apartment. There are 6 units in it and a neighboring building with 6 more. Between the two buildings is the road into the carpark. Turning into that road is completely blind so I always take it slow. However, many of my fellow residents do not. Since the weather has gotten a bit better there are hordes of kids running around the road and the car park itself, on bikes and scooters and playing football. Now, I don't want to sound like a grumpy old man, but what in the name of God are they doing there? There is ample green space provided and many roads along the back of the estate which are much quieter for cycling. Yet they seem to insist playing right on the apex of a blind corner which is often taken at high speed. Yesterday I came round the corner and even saw a father and son kicking a football up and down the road. On a blind bloody corner!

My point is that speed limit reductions are all well and good, but the key factor, in my opinion, is educating kids (and maybe in some cases parents) about use of road space for games and cycling etc. I'm waiting for the day that someone flys around the corner and nails one of the kids. If things continue as they are in my estate its inevitable.

Deu

donkeyoaty0099 wrote: »

Yesterday I came round the corner and even saw a father and son kicking a football up and down the road. On a blind bloody corner!

My point is that speed limit reductions are all well and good, but the key factor, in my opinion, is educating kids (and maybe in some cases parents) about use of road space for games and cycling etc. I'm waiting for the day that someone flys around the corner and nails one of the kids. If things continue as they are in my estate its inevitable.

Drivers should only be driving at a speed that they can stop within the distance they can see, otherwise it is dangerous.

If you are driving around a blind corner, there could be anything there a car, adult or child in the middle of the road and the driver won't have time to stop.

_Kaiser_

Deu wrote: »

Drivers should only be driving at a speed that they can stop within the distance they can see, otherwise it is dangerous.

If you are driving around a blind corner, there could be anything there a car, adult or child in the middle of the road and the driver won't have time to stop.

True - but once again that shifts the responsibility entirely to the motorist... what about the adult's/parent's responsibility to be mindful of their surroundings and their/their child's safety as well?

A busy road is not a playground... especially (as the poster says) there are ample green spaces provided!

monument

donkeyoaty0099 wrote: »

My point is that speed limit reductions are all well and good, but the key factor, in my opinion, is educating kids (and maybe in some cases parents) about use of road space for games and cycling etc. I'm waiting for the day that someone flys around the corner and nails one of the kids. If things continue as they are in my estate its inevitable.

It sound like educating the drivers may be more effective, children playing or no children they should not be flying around blind corners.

zl1whqvjs75cdy

I'm not laying the blame on one cohort, i.e kids playing, I'm saying that both kids and motorists need to contribute to improved Road safety. No point in driving at 20 kmph if kids are going to dive out in front of the car.

Carawaystick

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

True - but once again that shifts the responsibility entirely to the motorist... what about the adult's/parent's responsibility to be mindful of their surroundings and their/their child's safety as well?

A busy road is not a playground... especially (as the poster says) there are ample green spaces provided!

Explain how a motorist could be injured by people playing there?
Now consider how a motorist could harm people playing there.
The responsibility is entirely with the motorist.

expectationlost

Road Traffic (Speed Limits) (County Of Fingal)
Draft Bye-Laws (No. 2)
Local And Regional Roads 2015
http://www.fingalcoco.ie/roads-and-travel/roads-bye-laws/
draft bye law
notice
maps

--

is there a map of existing 30kph areas in Fingal

theres was a pilot scheme in baldoyle and portmarnok years ago
'but the necessary bye-laws had not been brought forward to give them effect'
http://www.independent.ie/regionals/fingalindependent/news/proposal-to-pilot-new-30kph-speed-limit-in-estates-27800163.html

they was a proposed pilot sheme that never happened? why

expectationlost

updates from jake's legacy campaign https://www.facebook.com/jakeslegacy/photos/a.771651756218718.1073741828.770043803046180/981757605208131/?type=1 meeting with Minister where he wouldn't agree to implement laws to make sure private estates are safe for kids

also money for implement 30kph in some Kilkenny estates https://www.facebook.com/jakeslegacy/posts/981769131873645