Cut-throat Canada?

montreal2011

Have ye noticed a cut-throat culture in the Canadian work environment?

I guess it happens everywhere, and I have worked in several countries in Europe and North America, but I have not seen it as frequently as I have seen it in Canada (or Montréal to more specific).

I have seen people not had contracts renewed, or cut short, despite years of experience, great work and need of their services because someone took a personal dislike to them and whispered a comment in the ear of management.

I have seen a guy surrounded by security staff and told to leave immediately while eating his soup at his desk at lunch time. I think they pounce suddenly in case there is a scene or employee does some kind of harm, e.g. steal or delete files etc. His soup was still sitting there a day later!

I know of someone who was told to move city or else lose their job.

The latest is my own, where I was told to sign a contract with a third party or it will be considered as me resigning. The reasons for this are to put pressure on to sign; if you resign you don't get "dole" for months and are not entitled to severance.

I'm sure these things happen all over, and are is a sense the way of the world and even normal in the world of business, but I don't think I have seen it to such a degree or frequency anywhere else.

COYVB

Canada is all about interpersonal relationships. You get nowhere or nothing without knowing the right people

montreal2011

From what I have seen, it's not enough if the right person you know isn't around at the right time or there is a deal bigger than you going on. Things can move fast and change quickly here.

In my own case, in the past two weeks I've had to start a business, hire an accountant and a lawyer just to keep in the permanent job that I've had for 4 years.

Two guys with 30 years combined in similar permanent positions in same company had to do the same. We were lucky that we had leverage, otherwise we would have been unemployed or 20% worse off in our pay.

RichFTW

montreal2011 wrote: »

Have ye noticed a cut-throat culture in the Canadian work environment?

I guess it happens everywhere, and I have worked in several countries in Europe and North America, but I have not seen it as frequently as I have seen it in Canada (or Montréal to more specific).

I have seen people not had contracts renewed, or cut short, despite years of experience, great work and need of their services because someone took a personal dislike to them and whispered a comment in the ear of management.

I have seen a guy surrounded by security staff and told to leave immediately while eating his soup at his desk at lunch time. I think they pounce suddenly in case there is a scene or employee does some kind of harm, e.g. steal or delete files etc. His soup was still sitting there a day later!

I know of someone who was told to move city or else lose their job.

The latest is my own, where I was told to sign a contract with a third party or it will be considered as me resigning. The reasons for this are to put pressure on to sign; if you resign you don't get "dole" for months and are not entitled to severance.

I'm sure these things happen all over, and are is a sense the way of the world and even normal in the world of business, but I don't think I have seen it to such a degree or frequency anywhere else.

This is a fairly normal practice for large companies and I've seen it quite a bit in Ireland as well. I used to run one of the "third party" companies you mentioned when working as an accountant in practice. The company you work for wants you to sign on as a contractor for some of the reasons you mentioned such as avoiding severance pay and requirements to pay pension costs and other benefits that actual employees are entitled to. You should be getting paid a higher wage though to compensate for this? That's usually the trade off.

There is nothing shady about it and I wouldn't necessarily take it as a punishment. It's common in industries where the work available depends on contracts won such as IT consulting or fund company management where you have annually renewed service contracts. The company is trying to make it's workforce more flexible so that in the event that it loses a major contract, it can let the contractors go without paying the severance pay. If they keep the contract, they continue to pay you.

I don't understand what happened with your contact but I'm guessing it was coming to an end. If it was, I can't see how that would be deemed resigning unless it said so in the original contract you signed.

montreal2011

It's not exactly my case; I am a permanent employee with company A; they sold our division to company B. They wanted us to sign new contracts, also as permanent employees, for company B, else they consider us as resigning.

Company B were offering us the same base pay, but with all the benefits counted, pension, shares, health etc taken into account, overall it would be a 20% reduction; more if annual bonus is taken into account. They would make up the 20% difference for the first year only. There were some other conditions in the contract that were not appealing also.

They were skirting on the edge of legal by treating all employees the same and offering us equivalent conditions. Some of us disagreed that the conditions were equivalent. We were lucky that we should be able to bypass both companies and continue to work as we do now as freelance; we are in IT, people as a service.

RichFTW

montreal2011 wrote: »

It's not exactly my case; I am a permanent employee with company A; they sold our division to company B. They wanted us to sign new contracts, also as permanent employees, for company B, else they consider us as resigning.

Company B were offering us the same base pay, but with all the benefits counted, pension, shares, health etc taken into account, overall it would be a 20% reduction; more if annual bonus is taken into account. They would make up the 20% difference for the first year only. There were some other conditions in the contract that were not appealing also.

They were skirting on the edge of legal by treating all employees the same and offering us equivalent conditions. Some of us disagreed that the conditions were equivalent. We were lucky that we should be able to bypass both companies and continue to work as we do now as freelance; we are in IT, people as a service.

Oh right, I assumed it was a contractor type situation considering you had to start a business and hire an accountant and a lawyer. For a contractor, the company would get you to set up your own company with an accounting firm so that you are a director of the company. You would then invoice your original employer for your hours worked through your new company and get paid as a regular creditor rather than an employee. Thus avoiding all rights for benefits and severance with the original employer. If you just switched from being an employee of company A to company B, then you should be entitled to severance pay with company B as you are still an employee.

Anyway that lunch thing sounds mad and a 20% pay cut is massive. I would be moving on if you had the option if it's a bad work environment to work in.

wittyusername

montreal2011 wrote: »

Have ye noticed a cut-throat culture in the Canadian work environment?

I guess it happens everywhere, and I have worked in several countries in Europe and North America, but I have not seen it as frequently as I have seen it in Canada (or Montréal to more specific).

I've seen elements of this in Toronto - cases that tread dangerously close to constuctive dismissal, decent employees let go due to a change in company direction, etc.

But I've also seen the sort of muppets that linger around Irish workplaces like bad smells fired for being bad at their jobs, so I think it's something that can cut both ways.

montreal2011

Another annoying factor is that in the weeks before they let go some employees who did not deem "good enough" to be part of the new venture with full severance packages (one month per year) whilst those who were deemed "good enough" were told to take the 20% cut or leave with nothing.

While the new venture does make good business sense, the manner in which they have done it shows real incompetence and I don't believe it will be a success long-term.

Anyway, I think that we have all learned a lot from this experience, especially the near worthlessness of the word permanent preceding the word employee! :pac:

Energizer_Bat

After working in Montreal for a couple of years I don't think its any more cut-throat than when I worked in London but a new experience for me is the speed at which people can be let go.

Back home or in London people would get a warning and such before being fired unless it was something horrendous like a physical attack. Here is have seen people 1 second being involved in a meeting and the next second being pulled aside and told to gather their things.

Since I'm the IT guy here I've had to stand over people while they get their stuff to make sure they return all the equipment. Really not used to that.

This gives a different atmosphere to the workplace. If I messed up in Dublin or London I could expect a warning but if I mess up here I could be gone the next day and not even know I did any wrong. Makes me very nervous for my position at the company.

Lollipops23

I was coming to the end of a contract with Bank of Montreal in January, and asked of 3 separate occasions for clarification as to if they were going to renew or if I should look elsewhere for opportunities.
They told me they were working on the plan for the new year and would get back to me.
After weeks of this I secured a new contract somewhere else, only for them to get all pissed off when I informed them. Assholes.

montreal2011

I've just heard another one tonight. A friend who has a reasearch position that gets renewed (or not) yearly was asked by her supervisor last year to wait until November before looking elsewhere as she would try to get her renewed. Didn't happen and November is too late to apply for poistions for the next year. Her work visa now expires at end of March. Supervisor would not apply for 6 month visa in January to give her some extra time, even though she screwed her by asking her to wait before applying elsewhere.

COYVB

montreal2011 wrote: »

I've just heard another one tonight. A friend who has a reasearch position that gets renewed (or not) yearly was asked by her supervisor last year to wait until November before looking elsewhere as she would try to get her renewed. Didn't happen and November is too late to apply for poistions for the next year. Her work visa now expires at end of March. Supervisor would not apply for 6 month visa in January to give her some extra time, even though she screwed her by asking her to wait before applying elsewhere.

Why did she wait to apply? You can apply and not accept anything offered, after all. I think your friend was a bit naive there to be honest, and I'd recommend nobody ever defer applications for any kind of job on the request of a temporary employer

montreal2011

COYVB wrote: »

Why did she wait to apply? You can apply and not accept anything offered, after all. I think your friend was a bit naive there to be honest, and I'd recommend nobody ever defer applications for any kind of job on the request of a temporary employer

She has been with this employer for 4 years so I believe that there was a level of trust, or expectation there, which has been shattered now. It's true that she might have been naive, especially considering that renewal was annual and based on having a budget available, which unfortunately it wasn't this year.

While it was naive on her part, it was callous of her supervisor to ask her to wait and then not do the paperwork to apply for 6 months (from January) rather than 3 so that she could have April to end of June to look for another job (which she asked her supervisor to do as a favor). Now her supervisor expects her to work up to March 31st and then trot off to the border and leave.