Should Lance pay everyone back?

laraghrider

Leroy42 wrote: »

He used it as a shield, which is why, IMO, he is held up as a greater fraud than Ulrich etc.

There is a world of difference between them. Ulrich was an idiot. He knew what he was doing, decided to dope and in truth it was his social habits that nailed him. He never went out of his way to attack anyone that dare speak otherwise, he never demanded sponsors stop working with people who were speaking the truth, he never proceeded over an air of intimidation and litigation. Ulrich was your run of the mill idiot from those times. Armstrong was a ruthless dictator.

Leroy42

mamax wrote: »

If you asked rooney was it a dive I'd bet he would admit it was, I'd also bet he would not act in the defensive and manipulative manner of Mr Armstrong.
I admit I once was a fan but when his lying cheating ways were revealed I felt complete disgust towards him, f*ck him and the bike he rode in on !

Difference is that Rooney can come out and say he dived and nothing happens. Utd don't forfeit the game, he doesn't get docked wages, he doesn't lose his contract. LA could not ever admit to doping (while he was still cycling at least) as the whole thing would come crashing down.

A footballer cheats by diving and everybody just says its part of the game. A cyclists cheats by doping (no point diving!) and the world brands the whole sport a farce.

laraghrider wrote: »

There is a world of difference between them. Ulrich was an idiot. He knew what he was doing, decided to dope and in truth it was his social habits that nailed him. He never went out of his way to attack anyone that dare speak otherwise, he never demanded sponsors stop working with people who were speaking the truth, he never proceeded over an air of intimidation and litigation. Ulrich was your run of the mill idiot from those times. Armstrong was a ruthless dictator.

I think you are agreeing with me. What you need to understand is the position that LA, through his own actions, found himself in. He built up this story about being the new generation, a miracle, beating cancer (for which he deserves huge respect regardless of anything else he does) and coming back to beat those pesky Euroweenies at their own game.

Once that narrative was bought into by the US public he had to take the stance he did, he couldn't just let the drip-drip of insinuation derail that. His character certainly seems to be of someone who totally justifies everything that he does as being necessary to ward off a greater evil. The very proof of that was that once he retired and tried to come back the fear factor was gone and people went after him, and he no longer had the weapons on which to beat them.

SUre he was doping, but others were at it too. Sure he crashed his car, but what good would owning up do, better to let the gf take the blame so that he can continue on his fight to clear his name.

Lumen

Leroy42 wrote: »

He built up this story about being the new generation, a miracle, beating cancer (for which he deserves huge respect regardless of anything else he does)

He did not "beat cancer". Doctors cured him of it.

Leroy42

Jeez Lumen, have whatever hatred you want for the guy in terms of what he did in cycling but that is being pedantic to the point of mean.

He had to go through the treatment,I have watched a few close relatives go through cancer treatment and its not like you just sit there and let the drugs work away while you read a magazine, maybe get some intervals done on the turbo.

He survived where many would, and have, not. Unless you believe that the human spirit and will to survive has no benefit whatsoever.

Lumen

Leroy42 wrote: »

Jeez Lumen, have whatever hatred you want for the guy in terms of what he did in cycling but that is being pedantic to the point of mean.

He had to go through the treatment,I have watched a few close relatives go through cancer treatment and its not like you just sit there and let the drugs work away while you read a magazine, maybe get some intervals done on the turbo.

He survived where many would, and have, not. Unless you believe that the human spirit and will to survive has no benefit whatsoever.

I don't hate him at all, I'm just giving credit where it's due.

http://www.cancer.org/cancer/testicularcancer/overviewguide/testicular-cancer-overview-survival-rates

"Testicular cancer is one of the most curable forms of cancer. If the cancer hasn’t spread outside the testicle, the 5-year relative survival rate is 99%. Even if the cancer has grown into nearby structures or has spread to nearby lymph nodes, the rate is 96%. If it has spread to organs or lymph nodes away from the tumor, the 5-year relative survival rate is around 74%."

Note, curable not beatable.

Zyzz

Lumen wrote: »

He did not "beat cancer". Doctors cured him of it.

You'd better go tell everyone that has 'beaten' cancer that that is not actually the case..

mcgratheoin

Leroy42 wrote: »

Jeez Lumen, have whatever hatred you want for the guy in terms of what he did in cycling but that is being pedantic to the point of mean.

He had to go through the treatment,I have watched a few close relatives go through cancer treatment and its not like you just sit there and let the drugs work away while you read a magazine, maybe get some intervals done on the turbo.

He survived where many would, and have, not. Unless you believe that the human spirit and will to survive has no benefit whatsoever.

In fairness to Lumen (and I've posted on this topic before) nobody is diminishing or hiding the fact that he had cancer and that it was a tough and painful few months for him. However, I think the galling thing about his cancer Jesus persona is his insinuation that cancer can be beaten if you have the spirit and will to survive. By sending this message out, the "I wasn't going to let cancer beat me", "i kicked cancer's butt" etc.. it insinuates that those who aren't as fortunate as him are in some way at fault for succumbing to the disease.

The story of a man who recovers from life-threatening cancer to ride the Tour and goes on to raise money for cancer awareness would have been an inspiring one and would have earned him the respect and legacy that he craved. But his ego created this new narrative, where he takes on the persona of a real-life superhero. Compare the Lance origin story to Spiderman/Fantastic Four/Incredible Hulk/ any number of heroes - the protagonist is caught in a deadly event which would kill a normal person. Not only does it not kill our hero but it imbues him with magical super powers - Lance's mythical new body-type and ability to withstand pain. Our hero goes on to be the physical and moral saviour of mankind - best cyclist on the planet and happens to raise tons of money for charity at the same time.

Leroy42

He didn't just get Testicular cancer though, it had spread even, if I recall, to his brain, but certainly his lungs.

Regardless, he was a young, fit man and as such he had everything going for him in order to give him the best chance of coming out the other side.

Many others who, unfortunately don't make it, is down to any number of reasons. Age, prior fitness, further complications, lack of medical care, lack or money etc etc and what we currently term faith (basically we don't know why).

This is getting OT, and I in no way trying to defend him. I fully take mcgratheoins points. And therein lies my original point. This is the very reason, why IMO, he is seen as such a nasty piece of work. He could have really given the cancer sufferers real hope, but he took it too far, had to go and beat everybody. And then he couldn't even accept his retirement he had to come back to teach Contador a lesson(or whatever bloody reason he had).

He was given a second chance and decided to be the world's biggest kn0b about it.

laraghrider

Zyzz wrote: »

You'd better go tell everyone that has 'beaten' cancer that that is not actually the case..

This is a tag line that really annoys me. As someone who has been there and as you put it 'beaten' cancer let me clarify something. You don't 'beat' cancer. I'm with Lumen here and I'm speaking of first hand experience. Nobody beats cancer. You simply survive it. Doctors and medical advances help cure it and yes while your family, friends and an unbelievable amount of willpower get you through the very dark days (when you can shave with your finger never mind a razor) you still don't beat it. You never beat it. You may survive it but it's there, like a pin in your brain all the time. The knowledge that although your 5 year scan still shows clear doctors still don't discharge you why? Because you had it once, it may well come back. The only hope you have is that your next scan remains clear. Oh and by the way you may get further illness or certain illness may hit you harder later in life due to the fact that you had this f**king scurge earlier in your life.

Apologies rant over, back on topic. That "beat cancer" crap just really gets to me.

petethedrummer

"That's exactly the problem with the world Lance, not enough bloody miracle believing." - David O'Doherty

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snLWkqWLY1g

mcgratheoin

Leroy42 wrote: »

He didn't just get Testicular cancer though, it had spread even, if I recall, to his brain, but certainly his lungs.

As a brief aside to this, there is still some argument over whether his doping contributed to the cancer, but I think it's been quite well established that early stage anomalous tests (indicative of cancer) and physical symptoms were ignored or not noticed, possibly as they were assumed to be consistent with doping.

Koobcam

mcgratheoin wrote: »

As a brief aside to this, there is still some argument over whether his doping contributed to the cancer, but I think it's been quite well established that early stage anomalous tests (indicative of cancer) and physical symptoms were ignored or not noticed, possibly as they were assumed to be consistent with doping.

I've seen people suggest both (that doping caused it and that doping played no role). Would also depend on Lance being completely honest as to when the doping started-might be a bit tricky getting clarity on this point. I've also seen similar suggestions about Laurent Fignon.

Hermy

Leroy42 wrote: »

Jeez Lumen, have whatever hatred you want for the guy in terms of what he did in cycling but that is being pedantic to the point of mean.

This was just what Lance was banking on - that because of the cancer diagnosis no-one would dare question him.

Leroy42 wrote: »

Regardless, he was a young, fit man and as such he had everything going for him in order to give him the best chance of coming out the other side.

Yeah, like running off to see Michele Ferrari as soon as he'd finished his treatment!

Beasty

Maybe the chickens are finally coming home to roost!

Lance Armstrong faces financial ruin

Last night, a federal judge paved the way for Armstrong to stand trial seven years after the case was launched by former team-mate Floyd Landis

Just $100m or so at stake!

07Lapierre

Beasty wrote: »

Maybe the chickens are finally coming home to roost!

Lance Armstrong faces financial ruin

Just $100m or so at stake!

it only took SEVEN years!...guess seven is not a lucky number for Lance!

godtabh

I've read that his defense is that the publicity to the Postal Service was worth more than the cost of the sponsorship and the subsequent brand impact.

There is some metric in advertising that associates sponsorship with free publicity. For every $ or £ or € spend generates x times $ or £ or €. The bigger the start the bigger the x.

Probably so much anti Lance that both parties will settle for something a lot smaller

Kaisr Sose

It's an arguable case. Advertisers measure a return on investment so it's obvious there was considerable payback while the good times rolled. Good news for Lance. However, the Plaintiff will counter that with the negative cost of the bad publicity when the Lancd train derailled.

Is that cost $100m ? I would not think so as Lance was no longer directly associated with USPS at that point. Did RadioShack suffer by their association with Lance when he came back to cycling? Or Nike? Trek? Most organisations have thicker skins than people when it comes to bad publicity. Lances stock has fallen through the floor but I don't think the corporates have suffered the same fate.

It's more about being seen to go after him. USPS is under the control /supervision of the United States Dept of State (USPS is heavily supervised by DOS) so they have to be seen to seek compensation for tax payers from Lance via the Courts. My 2c on it.

Weepsie

Wasn't this all instigated by Floyd Landis to basically get his own back at Lance as he himself had been somewhat thrown under the bus. Where any of these sponsors bothered that much.

Nike have been themselves involved in more than a few corruption cases, and they have had some sway with people in organisations they never should have. They should get shafted. Trek should get shafted for the way they got rid of LeMond range. As for the others I don't know, but the exposure they all got was really massive. They all still get their name bandied about now.

godtabh

Weepsie wrote: »

Wasn't this all instigated by Floyd Landis to basically get his own back at Lance as he himself had been somewhat thrown under the bus. Where any of these sponsors bothered that much.

Nike have been themselves involved in more than a few corruption cases, and they have had some sway with people in organisations they never should have. They should get shafted. Trek should get shafted for the way they got rid of LeMond range. As for the others I don't know, but the exposure they all got was really massive. They all still get their name bandied about now.

When Lance blocked Landis's entry to the Tour of California some years ago I think that was the trigger

Kaisr Sose

The State joined Landis's case...they had to be seen to be going for pay back /restitution. The argument being he had fraudulently benefited from Federal money (potentially a felony). Subsequently, I think it was accepted he was not a Federal employee so that avenue was not open to the DOS. I could be wrong on this, with Lance, it was always complicated!!

Beasty

Trial date set - 6 November

Spectators welcome.....:pac: