...pardon the vent, but, a request from the trade: pricing.

galwaytt

....pardon a small vent, but could I put it out there amongst customers, from someone in the trade, about pricing jobs............

....this is prompted by a trend I am seeing more of, and I would like to try get some trade info out there to those of you on the journey of your builds, so you can see what may be involved in pricing your job. This could equally apply to contractors, but also subbies: plumbers, electricians, plasterers and every other trade in the process. All of them at some stage, need some time to put into your job, to price it properly.

When a tender or rfq (request for quote) comes in, there is no real way of knowing whether it is any more or less likely to be built, than any other. All requests for tender should be taken equally seriously, and so time & effort - diligence - should go into them. Indeed, we took on an AT a while back specifically to get through the pricing process more quickly: the volume of price requests, and the length of time it was taking, was too long for my own liking, let alone the person waiting on it. Some builders hire a QS to do this for them (depends on the scale of the job). Either way, there is not inconsiderable time - aka cost - involved in the pricing process. This is a real cost which is more often than not never recouped - it is the nature of business: we all lose more jobs than we win.

That said, a house still takes time to calculate, especially one-off houses (which is the mainstay of building in Ireland at the present time). Issuing tenders and expecting fully costed buildings inside 10 working days is not practicable. So what's the alternative ? If I just adopt per-m2 pricing on things, then I'm more likely to lose work than gain work. And pi$$ off people with artificial pricing in the process. It may also set the client up for disappointment. You just have to look to the various TV programmes: Grand Designs, Room To Improve, Restoration Man and many others - to see that budgets are the biggest source of argument. Room to Improve last week illustrated that it as all to easy for what people thought was a budget, wasn't a suitable budget at all.........

It is in the interest of professionals in the trade that the pricing we give you is accurate, so that you may make an informed decision about what is usually a lot of money. This is not a fridge, or a TV you are contemplating.

I can cite example of a job taking 11 days to turn around, or an other being expedited after 4 days (600m2+). Both deemed too slow from the senders. Maybe they're right.

Now I appreciate clients are keen to receive prices as soon as possible. But I would also expect them to want an accurate one - otherwise every consecutive decision you are likely to make on your project may be based on a false premise. OK, rant over.

:pac:

er, discuss ??

G2DG

Can't disagree with you. Sounds like money isn't an issue so quote something huge!!!! Also that's some size of a house!

On the other side of things what would you like or what would be ideal from your point of view.

I have a background of some kind in QS (a while ago since I've actually done anything though) and was thinking of starting into the process of a self build in the next 6-12 months but with the new regs etc I am thinking of just getting an architect to do up the drawings and continue to work on the project as AC etc but then either producing some kind of rough BoQ / Schedule of Rates and going out for tender.

Or would you prefer to just get the drawings and go through them yourself.

Also I would probably look to divide out the plumbing / roofing / electrical work to different sub contractors that I would know myself. Is that another pain in the ass for you quoting or would it just work out best to lump it all in together and let the builder worry about it.

The way I am coming at it is that with the new regs and the questions over self building what now becomes the most efficient cost effective method of running it from start to finish including making life easier for the builder to price and then run?

sydthebeat

would you not request a letter of tender with a fixed return date?

all our tenders go out with general instructions with a return date and time in them

JoeySully

If I were a customer and didn't know how long pricing would take then I would be getting a bit peed of after 10 days as it would appear that you just didn't do it especially if a competitor had already replied after a couple days just giving a price per m2.

If you told me from the initial contact that you do detailed pricing of the spec and it could take up to 14 days because of the detail you go into then I would be delighted that you returned on day 11 with the numbers.

G2DG

sydthebeat wrote: »

would you not request a letter of tender with a fixed return date?

all our tenders go out with general instructions with a return date and time in them

Absolutely but I'm just wondering what would make the whole process easier from galwaytt's point of view. Is there anything that we could do that would help keep the costs down for pricing and in the management of project itself.

If not going with self build (due to regs etc) is their any elements of the project that can still be done by ourselves to help keep the cost down or are we better off just standing back and letting the experts at it.

kkelliher

G2DG wrote: »

Absolutely but I'm just wondering what would make the whole process easier from galwaytt's point of view.

If clients and their advisors spent the money on the tender process instead of lashing out drawings, endless specifications and works schedules with are cut and paste from previous projects, are generally full of contradictions and do not provide for a fair and equitable tender process. The current system operated by many, actually works against the better builders as they are drawn into a race to the bottom with contractors who simple fire a price into the document and send it back. If you spend the time (and get a QS) to tender correctly, you are actually less likely to win a tender as your price will be more accurate than those who cost per sq ft or simply fire a price at it.

Strolling Bones

As a designer I have been critisized by some clients for "going into too much detail" and consequently "costing" them money. Some just want it all done by magic....

kkelliher

Strolling Bones wrote: »

As a designer I have been critisized by some clients for "going into too much detail" and consequently "costing" them money. Some just want it all done by magic....

I have never had an issue with too much detail (although it does actually frighten off contractors), as long as its not the sole basis of the tender documentation.

kkelliher

To put context to the discussion I know of a recent government procurement process which had 5 contractors each of which spent well in excess of six figures on the tender which resulted in 1 winner. Therefore the guts of €500,000 went down the pan in tenders that could never have won. On the smaller scale if you take 5 builders each pricing a one off house, thats going to be at least €1-2k in tender costs (which follows down the line to subcontractors) for each contractor. Therefore anything from €3-8k will be lost in pricing, on tenders that loose. Its a frustrating system that most clients do not know, understand or even care about. A bit of a unique industry when it comes to hidden costs.

Strolling Bones

kkelliher wrote: »

I have never had an issue with too much detail (although it does actually frighten off contractors), as long as its not the sole basis of the tender documentation.

A never had a QS complain that I produced too much detail

Just clients who complained that if it's not included he doesn't have to pay for it ..... :rolleyes:

Tefral

Strolling Bones wrote: »

A never had a QS complain that I produced too much detail

Just clients who complained that if it's not included he doesn't have to pay for it ..... :rolleyes:

You can never have too much info for us.:D

Victor

Strolling Bones wrote: »

A never had a QS complain that I produced too much detail

There is a difference between providing adequate detail to construct the building and adding detailing to the design, e.g. adding stone lintels or custom bricks to a brick facade.

galwaytt

sydthebeat wrote: »

would you not request a letter of tender with a fixed return date?

all our tenders go out with general instructions with a return date and time in them

Sure, but what I'm saying is that the timeframe should be to allow for the job to be done accurately. Or, state on the tender you're just looking for budget pricing which may be revisited.

JoeySully wrote: »

If I were a customer and didn't know how long pricing would take then I would be getting a bit peed of after 10 days as it would appear that you just didn't do it especially if a competitor had already replied after a couple days just giving a price per m2.

If you told me from the initial contact that you do detailed pricing of the spec and it could take up to 14 days because of the detail you go into then I would be delighted that you returned on day 11 with the numbers.

I hear you. But as per my point above, what kind of pricing are you expecting when you send out stuff ? By which I mean, a per m2 price is an estimate, not a quote. It will be full of caveats and the infamous 'PC' sums. If someone wants a quote I assume they want it based on their actual plans, measured & calculated. The difference is that you won't get (say) a bank to advance a letter of offer of money based on the former, but you would on the latter.

But it brings an interesting point: a stray poll then: which is the most relevant to you: estimate or quote ?

G2DG wrote: »

Absolutely but I'm just wondering what would make the whole process easier from galwaytt's point of view. Is there anything that we could do that would help keep the costs down for pricing and in the management of project itself.

If not going with self build (due to regs etc) is their any elements of the project that can still be done by ourselves to help keep the cost down or are we better off just standing back and letting the experts at it.

A bit of clarity here: I don't do turn-key, so there's plenty of scope outside what I do, for any client to manage in whatever way they want. Self, Contractor, Project-manager.

galwaytt

kkelliher wrote: »

To put context to the discussion I know of a recent government procurement process which had 5 contractors each of which spent well in excess of six figures on the tender which resulted in 1 winner. Therefore the guts of €500,000 went down the pan in tenders that could never have won. On the smaller scale if you take 5 builders each pricing a one off house, thats going to be at least €1-2k in tender costs (which follows down the line to subcontractors) for each contractor. Therefore anything from €3-8k will be lost in pricing, on tenders that loose. Its a frustrating system that most clients do not know, understand or even care about. A bit of a unique industry when it comes to hidden costs.

OMG +1000000.

I think this process shows that there is no 'value' in that process to the end-client. What you get, as you say, is a race to the bottom. What that contractor wins the job, it's THEN they go 'shopping', and looking for ways to both lower the cost of build, as well as chasing 'variations' and day works. Sometimes the variations and dayworks are the extent of their profit- the original on-contract paper number is in fact a loss leader. Either way, quality doesn't come first.

Strolling Bones

Victor wrote: »

There is a difference between providing adequate detail to construct the building and adding detailing to the design, e.g. adding stone lintels or custom bricks to a brick facade.

How do you mean?

galwaytt

Strolling Bones wrote: »

As a designer I have been critisized by some clients for "going into too much detail" and consequently "costing" them money. Some just want it all done by magic....

...catch 22: if you omit it, don't include it, and the client wants it but it's not in the priced tender, then it's the usual 'variation' at construction time and so the battle commences.....

kkelliher wrote: »

I have never had an issue with too much detail (although it does actually frighten off contractors), as long as its not the sole basis of the tender documentation.

...indeed : I know of builders now looking at detailed tenders and making a conscious decision to NOT price them. They are thinking "if I have to hire a QS to price this, what are the chances of me getting the job ?". If they are not confident, they just do a 'no thanks' or don't answer at all. I know a very, very good M&E contractor and he has not decided, carte blanche, no more new builds. Says he makes more money, for less hours, less paperwork, in repairs & refurb. It's hard to fault his logic.

And then of course, clients wonder "how come no-one wants to priced this job/not enough people priced it - I thought builders were crying out for work ? " Many simply cannot afford to price it on the mere hope of getting it.

Victor

Strolling Bones wrote: »

How do you mean?

Some architects create 'fussy' designs that cost lots of money - they want a tall, grande, skinny, no-caf, full-milk, full-caf mocha frappuccino with caramel, marshmallows and chocolate powder ... and then give out when you don't give them Hob-Nob biscuits. In other words they want every nicety, give conflicting information, skip important information while demanding thrift be imposed on everyone except themselves and their buddies. Some do it on their own, some do it on behalf of clients.

Some examples of this were:
* Demolition of large, concrete-built shed to rear of terraced house not included in tender documents - only discovered on site inspection. Everything would need to be taken out through the existing house.
* Architect designs balcony balustrade with horizontal bars. Glass panelling needed to be added so that it could comply with building regulations (to stop children climbing over it).
* Workshop shown on to-scale drawings wasn't not actually to scale. Acoustic folding door (€5,000) not actually indicated as new.
* Architect shows traditional glass doors on shop front at tender stage, client needs sliding doors. Architect procrastinates on issuing variation and then refuses to pay.
* Client wanting nursing home to cost less than €2.167m, because that was where the tax break ended, but for an economic size (50+ beds), it would cost over €3m.

kkelliher

galwaytt wrote: »

OMG +1000000.

I think this process shows that there is no 'value' in that process to the end-client. What you get, as you say, is a race to the bottom. What that contractor wins the job, it's THEN they go 'shopping', and looking for ways to both lower the cost of build, as well as chasing 'variations' and day works. Sometimes the variations and dayworks are the extent of their profit- the original on-contract paper number is in fact a loss leader. Either way, quality doesn't come first.

There is plenty of added value to the end client if they get prices on a like with like basis and contractors know they have a fair shot at each job the price. Simple answer detailed BOQ or Schedule on each job, with proper tender analysis, proper PC SUM allowances by the client so they are consistent across all tenders and the end result should be a fairer more involved process. The more contractors that say no to drawings and spec tenders the better chance the profession will react for the better

Strolling Bones

Victor wrote: »

Some examples of this were:
* Demolition of large, concrete-built shed to rear of terraced house not included in tender documents - only discovered on site inspection. Everything would need to be taken out through the existing house.
* Architect designs balcony balustrade with horizontal bars. Glass panelling needed to be added so that it could comply with building regulations (to stop children climbing over it).
* Workshop shown on to-scale drawings wasn't not actually to scale. Acoustic folding door (€5,000) not actually indicated as new.
* Architect shows traditional glass doors on shop front at tender stage, client needs sliding doors. Architect procrastinates on issuing variation and then refuses to pay.

They are all examples of lack of information - of bad practice

Victor wrote: »

* Client wanting nursing home to cost less than €2.167m, because that was where the tax break ended, but for an economic size (50+ beds), it would cost over €3m.

Not sure who you should point the finger at there but you seem to select the architect.

kkelliher

Strolling Bones wrote: »

They are all examples of lack of information - of bad practice



Not sure who you should point the finger at there but you seem to select the architect.

In the vast majority of projects the "architect" is the person responsible for the tender process and documentation so yes the finger will point at that person.

Strolling Bones

kkelliher wrote: »

In the vast majority of projects the "architect" is the person responsible for the tender process and documentation so yes the finger will point at that person.

so if "the economic size" of a project exceeds "the tax break end" the architect is responsible...

Strolling Bones

I used to do a lot of Part M local authority grant aided domestic conversions.
The drawings I mean.
Clients were low income with medical need. I worked on this stuff in my spare time for beer money. Sometimes no money.
After a couple of years I had to stop this .
The LA's began to seek RIAI PI indemified certification.
From low income clients.
Who axiomatically could not afford RIAI PI covered services
As an individual I did not have PI.

But I expect all this is my fault.

kkelliher

Strolling Bones wrote: »

so if "the economic size" of a project exceeds "the tax break end" the architect is responsible...

I would love to provide an answer but I have no idea what you mean by this.

kkelliher

Strolling Bones wrote: »

I used to do a lot of Part M local authority grant aided domestic conversions.
The drawings I mean.
Clients were low income with medical need. I worked on this stuff in my spare time for beer money. Sometimes no money.
After a couple of years I had to stop this .
The LA's began to seek RIAI PI indemified certification.
From low income clients.
Who axiomatically could not afford RIAI PI covered services
As an individual I did not have PI.

But I expect all this is my fault.

this has nothing to do with the topic been discussed or outlined by the OP. You seem to be trying to compare requirements with process which are two completely different things.

Strolling Bones

kkelliher wrote: »

this has nothing to do with the topic been discussed or outlined by the OP. You seem to be trying to compare requirements with process which are two completely different things.

Well the op opened up with a rant (his word) about the lack of time afforded by customers for him to preapre costs. You and another moderator turned it into a pi$$ on the architects rant.

Strolling Bones

kkelliher wrote: »

I would love to provide an answer but I have no idea what you mean by this.

Well if you simply read back through the thread and followed the flow of ideas....

Edit - I was responding specifically to the last point made by Victor

* Client wanting nursing home to cost less than €2.167m, because that was where the tax break ended, but for an economic size (50+ beds), it would cost over €3m.

kkelliher

Strolling Bones wrote: »

Well the op opened up with a rant (his word) about the lack of time afforded by customers for him to preapre costs. You and another moderator turned it into a pi$$ on the architects rant.

You might point out where I went on an Architect rant? System rant yes, Architect rant no.

kkelliher

Strolling Bones wrote: »

Edit - I was responding specifically to the last point made by Victor

Fair Enough

G2DG

kkelliher wrote: »

, thats going to be at least €1-2k in tender costs (which follows down the line to subcontractors) for each contractor. Therefore anything from €3-8k will be lost in pricing, on tenders that loose. Its a frustrating system that most clients do not know, understand or even care about.

kkelliher wrote: »

There is plenty of added value to the end client if they get prices on a like with like basis and contractors know they have a fair shot at each job the price. Simple answer detailed BOQ or Schedule on each job, with proper tender analysis, proper PC SUM allowances by the client so they are consistent across all tenders and the end result should be a fairer more involved process. The more contractors that say no to drawings and spec tenders the better chance the profession will react for the better

These are the 2 key points that I was hinting towards. So this is in my head how I would go about building my house.

1. Find architect and work on design, planning permission etc and eventually get to stage where construction can start. (Should the architect be the AC for the duration of the project also?)

Go through this exact process with architect of how the project should be run and agree their fees. Let the architect know exactly what will be expected of them and agree the all in price there and then before it goes any further.

2. Draw up BoQ and schedule of rates using the drawings.

(Seperate issue: Do more architects not have the facility to generate reasonably accurate BoQ's? Either in house or in collaboration with QS's without the client now experiencing a waste in costs in much the same way a contractor has in the tendering process. A mate from college is working as Project Manager in the States and he said he uses a software to take off the dimensions and quantities from the drawings which produces a spreadsheet that they put costs against)

3. Approach the sub contractors for the roofing / plumbing / electrical / windows/ joinery / plastering packages and get prices and work schedules from them.

4. Prepare tender docs to include the PC sum packages as well as all the details gathered from those sub contractors.

5. Approach contractors with tender documentation and ask them to consider the project and then price it if interested. Looking at the some of the posts at this stage we want to make life easy for the contractors to price so should we just look at a schedule of rates rather than a full BoQ to be priced??

6. Select contractor based on tenders and feedback (cost not the only thing to consider).

7. Before everything starts, set up meeting with architect and contractor so everything is looked at, gone through and agreed. Contractor familiarises themselves with the project and raises any issues there and then. All drawings are checked and double checked and signed off. The BoQ is done in it's entirety and divided into stages that it can be checked off as projects goes along to ensure it's on budget or better again under budget. Agree schedule of works with contractor to include all the subbed out packages etc.

8. Commence work and pray for no delays!!

9. Deal with inevitable problems and delays as they arise. Have all certificates etc completed at the right times.


I would look to work closely with the contractor as the work continues and keeping a close eye on the budget as it goes along. But I agree with one of the points previously made that really the bulk of the work from the client point of view should be done at tender stage and then once contractor is selected but before work commences.


Thoughts? How can this work better from everyone's point of view, but in particular the point of view of the one paying out all the cash!!!!! And I'm focusing it on one off house constructions.

Strolling Bones

kkelliher wrote: »

You might point out where I went on an Architect rant? System rant yes, Architect rant no.

I was thinking of this

kkelliher wrote: »

In the vast majority of projects the "architect" is the person responsible for the tender process and documentation so yes the finger will point at that person.

Less caustic than Victors post - but influenced by following soon after.
Not sure why a "qs" needs to state "architect" either.

.

Strolling Bones

G2DG wrote: »

How can this work better from everyone's point of view.

The closer you are to having the house built "in your mind" before works start the better.

In the last RTE Room to Improve programme we were treated to a client - in mid build - saying "oooh - I don't like timber windows".

Absolutely shocking. I advise clients to use every minute they can of the 3 month planning permission period to scour showrooms , trade fairs etc to have all that stuff ironed out long before the build starts.

To be selecting windows in mid build was an abject failure of that "celebrity" for allowing a client to find himself in that position.