Don't make an offer says Estate Agent?

freelancerTax

bit of an odd situation here!
just finished a second viewing of a house near a small town that is advertised as 210,000

the vendors have left Ireland and are not in a rush to sell according to ea. I made an offer of 185k and the ea said if i can't come up to 190k that he says we shouldn't make an offer..

the house has been on for nearly a year with no other offers

what do you make of him advising me not to offer at all?

thanks ft

Cuddlesworth

Usually the EA knows what the lowest the vendor is willing to accept. He just wants rid of the property, especially one that has been on for a year.

In most cases, people seem to blame the EA yet fail to acknowledge the people selling might refuse to believe its worth less than a specific price. Property tax was supposed to be an effective deterrent against that, by providing a mechanism of yearly costs onto a property but at its current value it has little to no effect on the market.

fret_wimp2

Up to you - do you want to offer 5k extra to "potentially" make things go smoother, or do you want to call his bluff?

5k when written down looks tiny but remember, its 5,000 euros, think how long it would take to save that.

Personally, if i feel im being played Id offer nothing else, leave my bid on the table, set a time limit of 7 days and leave it at that. I know what im willing to pay, I know what i think the place is worth its rare id continue to bid in that situation.

What you think the place is worth though is up to you, and remember that extra 5k doesnt guarantee them comming back with a mysterous bidder offering 5k on top of that.

freelancerTax

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

Usually the EA knows what the lowest the vendor is willing to accept. He just wants rid of the property, especially one that has been on for a year.

In most cases, people seem to blame the EA yet fail to acknowledge the people selling might refuse to believe its worth less than a specific price. Property tax was supposed to be an effective deterrent against that, by providing a mechanism of yearly costs onto a property but at its current value it has little to no effect on the market.

hi
yes I realise this but ea told me he valued it at that price also a week a go he told me they wouldn't consider less than 200k

thanks
ft

fret_wimp2

freelancerTax wrote: »

hi
yes I realise this but ea told me he valued it at that price also a week a go he told me they wouldn't consider less than 200k

thanks
ft

if he wont consider less than 200k, why is he telling you to bid 190k?

freelancerTax

fret_wimp2 wrote: »

if he wont consider less than 200k, why is he telling you to bid 190k?

I don't know... the tune changed when I offered 185?

thanks
ft

fret_wimp2

one of two things going on here:
-EA is trying to get the max he can here at the risk of losing the bid completely.
or
-EA knows seller wont accept less than 200k and is working you up to as close to 200k as possible. I imagine that if you offer 190k there will be another discussion where you are told that if you offer just 5k more its more likely that your bid will be accepted.

Outcome is pretty much the same.

questions you need to answer:

-is it worth 190k to you?
-will the EA accept 190k after saying nothing less than 200k (speculate)
-when they reject 190k, are you willing to go to 200k?
-is it worth playing hardball, leave your bid on the table with an expiry date.

freelancerTax

-is it worth 190k to you? NO
-will the EA accept 190k after saying nothing less than 200k (speculate) WHO KNOWS!
-when they reject 190k, are you willing to go to 200k? NO CERTAINLY NOT
-is it worth playing hardball, leave your bid on the table with an expiry date? I HAVE NO IDEA... SOUNDS LIKE ITS NOT

P. Breathnach

As I read it, you already have made an offer. If you did it orally, you should follow up with a confirmatory email just to make sure it is on the record. Ask the EA to put it to the client, and advise you of the client's response.

I agree with Cuddlesworth's interpretation: the EA knows the vendor's lowest limit - or the limit the vendor set when last in contact with the EA. It might also be a clear signal to you that if you go to €190k you will get the property.

Ask yourself two questions if the vendor digs in, is the property worth €190k to you? and can you find that much? If the answer to both questions is yes, you could take a few days, make a bit of a palaver about seeing if you can raise another €5k (just to make sure the EA doesn't think there is more in the pot) and increase the offer.

Uno my Uno.

Sounds like an EA who knows that the vendor won't accept your bid and doesn't want to have to waste his and his client's time passing on unacceptable offers.

Its open to you to make an offer even if the EA recommends you don't but don't expect it to be accepted.

freelancerTax

P. Breathnach wrote: »

As I read it, you already have made an offer. If you did it orally, you should follow up with a confirmatory email just to make sure it is on the record. Ask the EA to put it to the client, and advise you of the client's response.

I agree with Cuddlesworth's interpretation: the EA knows the vendor's lowest limit - or the limit the vendor set when last in contact with the EA. It might also be a clear signal to you that if you go to €190k you will get the property.

Ask yourself two questions if the vendor digs in, is the property worth €190k to you? and can you find that much? If the answer to both questions is yes, you could take a few days, make a bit of a palaver about seeing if you can raise another €5k (just to make sure the EA doesn't think there is more in the pot) and increase the offer.

I've already told him I can't go above 185... he suggested I look for cheaper property...lol

ft

freelancerTax

Uno my Uno. wrote: »

Sounds like an EA who knows that the vendor won't accept your bid and doesn't want to have to waste his and his client's time passing on unacceptable offers.

Its open to you to make an offer even if the EA recommends you don't but don't expect it to be accepted.

he knew my price range from the get go I gave it to him when first enquiring - if anyone's time has been wasted its mine

this property has been on a year with no offers and no price drop I don't think I'm outside its real value

secondrowgal

EA are legally obliged to provide your (reasonable) offer to the vendor for their consideration. Make sure you send it to him in writing and request full feedback on the vendor's response.

um7y1h83ge06nx

freelancerTax wrote: »

he knew my price range from the get go I gave it to him when first enquiring - if anyone's time has been wasted its mine

this property has been on a year with no offers and no price drop I don't think I'm outside its real value

Might be better to keep your cards close to your chest regarding your maximum budget. An EA will always try and push your closer to the max if they know you have it. When asked about our budget we just say any offers depend on what we think the house is worth and how much we would need to do to get it finished to our tastes.

seamus

freelancerTax wrote: »

he knew my price range from the get go I gave it to him when first enquiring - if anyone's time has been wasted its mine

this property has been on a year with no offers and no price drop I don't think I'm outside its real value

The business of offering and accepting is akin to a game of poker, nobody wants to show their hand, everyone wants the other guy to crack first.

The EA assumes that you're playing this game, so if you tell him your maximum is €185k, he reckons you can go up to €200k or a little more.

And that's the way it needs to be played. If you tell an estate agent that you can afford €185k, then he'll tell you that there's already an offer of €180k on the house that you're interested in. He's working for himself first and foremost, and the vendor secondly. The only thing that interests him about you is how much money he can get from you.

Uno my Uno.

freelancerTax wrote: »

he knew my price range from the get go I gave it to him when first enquiring - if anyone's time has been wasted its mine

this property has been on a year with no offers and no price drop I don't think I'm outside its real value

Maybe not but it's not just about what its worth but rather what the vendor will accept.

by the seaside

Get your mate to come round and offer 180k.

freelancerTax

by the seaside wrote: »

Get your mate to come round and offer 180k.

how will this help?

thanks
ft

by the seaside

freelancerTax wrote: »

how will this help?

thanks
ft

It was a bit tongue in cheek, sorry. The idea is that it sets the idea in the EA's / vendor's mind that this is a fair price, but it's not really a serious idea.

I've been in this position before and a more realistic plan is to politely advise that 185k is your maximum offer so to come back to you if anything changes. Then give them a call every 6 to 8 weeks if it's still unsold to politely remind them you're still interested.

fret_wimp2

by the seaside wrote: »

It was a bit tongue in cheek, sorry. The idea is that it sets the idea in the EA's / vendor's mind that this is a fair price, but it's not really a serious idea.

I've been in this position before and a more realistic plan is to politely advise that 185k is your maximum offer so to come back to you if anything changes. Then give them a call every 6 to 8 weeks if it's still unsold to politely remind them you're still interested.

I would say that you now become a safety net and are left hanging as an option last resort should no better offers come in, your at the mercy of the EA/owner.

The advice is good to a point, but put an expiry date on it.
"Im interested, im not upping my offer, and i am not going to hang about forever so make a decision within the next X number of days/weeks. If i dont hear back from you il assume you're not interested in my offer and will take my money elsewhere".

by the seaside

fret_wimp2 wrote: »

I would say that you now become a safety net and are left hanging as an option last resort should no better offers come in, your at the mercy of the EA/owner.

The advice is good to a point, but put an expiry date on it.
"Im interested, im not upping my offer, and i am not going to hang about forever so make a decision within the next X number of days/weeks. If i dont hear back from you il assume you're not interested in my offer and will take my money elsewhere".

I'm never convinced by this time limit business. What do you do when they come back one week after your time limit has expired and you're still interested? No disrespect intended, but it smacks of someone who's spent too much time watching Location, Location, Location. But fair enough if others find this tactic works.

What I do say is that I'm looking at other places, so if they get back to me, I can advise if I'm still interested. I don't see how you're at anyone's mercy, because you have every right to advise them that the offer no longer stands, or indeed to lower the offer because you've seen a better deal elsewhere.

Uno my Uno.

fret_wimp2 wrote: »

I would say that you now become a safety net and are left hanging as an option last resort should no better offers come in, your at the mercy of the EA/owner.

The advice is good to a point, but put an expiry date on it.
"Im interested, im not upping my offer, and i am not going to hang about forever so make a decision within the next X number of days/weeks. If i dont hear back from you il assume you're not interested in my offer and will take my money elsewhere".

I don't think putting arbitrary expiry dates on lowball offers gets bidders anywhere. I suspect that people think it makes them look like hard bargainers but that isn't really the case. A low offer is still a low offer in 7 days time and a vendor isn't going to take the expiry date all to seriously unless its backed up by an actual reason for it.

On the other hand a decent offer with a limit of 7 days might look a lot more attractive after 7 days if nothing better has come in and the vendor knows the offer will be off the table for a genuine reason.

by the seaside

Uno my Uno. wrote: »

I don't think putting arbitrary expiry dates on lowball offers gets bidders anywhere. I suspect that people think it makes them look like hard bargainers but that isn't really the case. A low offer is still a low offer in 7 days time and a vendor isn't going to take the expiry date all to seriously unless its backed up by an actual reason for it.

On the other hand a decent offer with a limit of 7 days might look a lot more attractive after 7 days if nothing better has come in and the vendor knows the offer will be off the table for a genuine reason.

I guess if you have a genuine reason, it might work. Perhaps you might have another potential house you need to make a definite decision on by a certain date.

fret_wimp2

by the seaside wrote: »

I'm never convinced by this time limit business. What do you do when they come back one week after your time limit has expired and you're still interested?

If they come back, and youre still in a position to buy and still interested they HORRAY! Everybody wins.

The point is to try to light a fire under their ass and make a decision and also to get the message across that your not sitting by the phone patiently waiting for them to decide. You have a life to live, youre not going to hang about indefinitely for an answer.

It may accomplish nothing and you never hear back from them in which case you move on anyway. but its worth being sure they are aware that this is how it will work.

And as "by the seaside" put very well, if youre interested in two properties but just a shade more interested in thier property, you need to know sooner rather than later if they will accept, or risk losing both properties.

cerastes

Uno my Uno. wrote: »

Sounds like an EA who knows that the vendor won't accept your bid and doesn't want to have to waste his and his client's time passing on unacceptable offers.

Its open to you to make an offer even if the EA recommends you don't but don't expect it to be accepted.

That seems to be the job, its only as much a hassle for an EA as it is for the general dicking around EAs put buyers through. So sending one generic email to update client is a hassle?

freelancerTax wrote: »

he knew my price range from the get go I gave it to him when first enquiring - if anyone's time has been wasted its mine
this property has been on a year with no offers and no price drop I don't think I'm outside its real value

Might not have been a good idea that, they probably try pry that info out subtly and politely, I think the poster that answered it gave a good response to use.

secondrowgal wrote: »

EA are legally obliged to provide your (reasonable) offer to the vendor for their consideration. Make sure you send it to him in writing and request full feedback on the vendor's response.

Are they? is this a voluntary code of practice? or is this part a legal obligation?

Harlan Orange Thinner wrote: »

Might be better to keep your cards close to your chest regarding your maximum budget. An EA will always try and push your closer to the max if they know you have it. When asked about our budget we just say any offers depend on what we think the house is worth and how much we would need to do to get it finished to our tastes.

Agreed, good way to put it.

by the seaside wrote: »

I'm never convinced by this time limit business. What do you do when they come back one week after your time limit has expired and you're still interested? No disrespect intended, but it smacks of someone who's spent too much time watching Location, Location, Location. But fair enough if others find this tactic works.

What I do say is that I'm looking at other places, so if they get back to me, I can advise if I'm still interested. I don't see how you're at anyone's mercy, because you have every right to advise them that the offer no longer stands, or indeed to lower the offer because you've seen a better deal elsewhere.

Cant say Im convinced myself, it seems fashionable. I suppose no harm giving an offer, putting it in writieng/email too and saying can you contact me back by friday/in a week. If you make any time limit demand and then enquire after that you, better to just make an offer, ask for a reply by X and then, you havent limited yourself from contacting them, but havent said you will.

by the seaside wrote: »

I guess if you have a genuine reason, it might work. Perhaps you might have another potential house you need to make a definite decision on by a certain date.

At that rate, you could just keep looking and the first positive reply to a property you like, you could go for that, I can imagine people would only wait around on a place they have a preference for, but if there is no movement or the EA is difficult to deal with, whether on the instruction of the vendor or not, if it isnt moving on price or getting no reply, people cant wait indefinitely either, just have to move on, although this seems to be the general attitude of EAs now? how much business is there that they cant be arsed to even reply?

Uno my Uno.

fret_wimp2 wrote: »

If they come back, and youre still in a position to buy and still interested they HORRAY! Everybody wins.

The point is to try to light a fire under their ass and make a decision and also to get the message across that your not sitting by the phone patiently waiting for them to decide. You have a life to live, youre not going to hang about indefinitely for an answer.

It may accomplish nothing and you never hear back from them in which case you move on anyway. but its worth being sure they are aware that this is how it will work.

And as "by the seaside" put very well, if youre interested in two properties but just a shade more interested in thier property, you need to know sooner rather than later if they will accept, or risk losing both properties.

But its not a case of everybody wins, if you don't follow through on your expiry date they know you were a bluffer and that puts the bidder in a much weaker situation. With a low offer better to say its a standing offer but you are looking at other properties and then walk away. It doesn't mean you're waiting by the phone and if they do come back to you, you have the advantage in any further negotiations as you have not changed your position.

fret_wimp2

Uno my Uno. wrote: »

But its not a case of everybody wins, if you don't follow through on your expiry date they know you were a bluffer and that puts the bidder in a much weaker situation. .

At this stage, they have called you, the bidder, to see if your offer is still on the table. how does that put you in a weaker position?

cerastes

fret_wimp2 wrote: »

At this stage, they have called you, the bidder, to see if your offer is still on the table. how does that put you in a weaker position?

and if they dont call you back? if they are playing it tough thinking they dont want to be dictated to? and that its they who should control the process, knowing there is interest?
what then? if you set a time limit and then call back after that, it doesnt look so hardball.
Isnt it just as easy to say, heres the offer, we want you to put that to the seller and get back to us by friday or in a week, were already and still looking elsewhere anyway.
If they dont reply, then you know they are unprofessional and/or the owners are unrealistic, move on it seems, no option really.

Uno my Uno.

fret_wimp2 wrote: »

At this stage, they have called you, the bidder, to see if your offer is still on the table. how does that put you in a weaker position?

And if you say yes it is, after it is supposed to be off the table they know the expiry was a bluff. Once you are exposed as a bluffer they have the power.

As another poster suggested it smacks of someone who has watched too much tv. To me it is a better strategy to be calm and deliberate in your negotiations, make rational decisions and offers and avoid mind games.

These boards are awash with posters suggesting bidders do things like make offers and demand responses within xxhours or its off the table and if the vendor comes back to withdraw the first offer and make a second offer lower than your first and so on. That sort of stuff is baloney and no reasonable bidder or agent would do it or put up with it. I'm not saying a bidder shouldn't be smart or even a little bit sneaky, but they should avoid doing anything that could be considered messing around as it does not work to their advantage.

cerastes

Uno my Uno. wrote: »

And if you say yes it is, after it is supposed to be off the table they know the expiry was a bluff. Once you are exposed as a bluffer they have the power.

As another poster suggested it smacks of someone who has watched too much tv. To me it is a better strategy to be calm and deliberate in your negotiations, make rational decisions and offers and avoid mind games.

These boards are awash with posters suggesting bidders do things like make offers and demand responses within xxhours or its off the table and if the vendor comes back to withdraw the first offer and make a second offer lower than your first and so on. That sort of stuff is baloney and no reasonable bidder or agent would do it or put up with it. I'm not saying a bidder shouldn't be smart or even a little bit sneaky, but they should avoid doing anything that could be considered messing around as it does not work to their advantage.

That seems to be a better idea to me, but does it work when you're deasling with EAs who mostly seem to do the mind games themselves, at worst not be drawn into it, but when EAs arent passing on offers, a vendor might see what the offers are and decide to make a move on one.
There shoukd be more rapid transparency on offers made, ie any offers made should be able to be viewed by at least those in the process, not sure what system would have to be in place to ensure other bids were genuine.

secondrowgal

cerastes wrote: »

Are they? is this a voluntary code of practice? or is this part a legal obligation?

http://tinyurl.com/psrguide
http://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/property-mortgages/estate-agents-demand-action-on-gazumping-30575211.html