New licences coming - what do we need?

marno21

DubTony wrote: »

We need a Dublin only news station. Cos I really don't give a sh!t about the fcuking ploughing championships, or how much a farmer gets for his "Yoes"

Newstalk 106 licence should have remained Dublin only if that was the case and the country licence should've been seperated

jrmb

marno21 wrote: »

Newstalk 106 licence should have remained Dublin only if that was the case and the country licence should've been separated

AFAIK they gave up the Dublin licence when they were allowed to go nationwide.

zoobizoo

Newstalk was great as a Dublin only station. I think it really connected with the listeners. Reminded me of GLR when I lived in London.

I remember the first day they went national and had Rosin Ingle presenting at the time slot that had been the Arts show. It was awful.


It reminded me of when EMAP took Kiss FM London over in 1999 and the spirit of the station died.

end of the road

zoobizoo wrote: »

It reminded me of when EMAP took Kiss FM London over in 1999 and the spirit of the station died.

yet listening back to some recordings, i forgot how good much of the music was back then compared to now

L1011

I'd be concerned that a news/talk only licence for Dublin wouldn't be financially viable. Talk is expensive, even if they rented in their news content off Newstalk to reduce costs and were allowed play a decent % international content like RTÉ Choice did.

end of the road

L1011 wrote: »

I'd be concerned that a news/talk only licence for Dublin wouldn't be financially viable.

L1011 wrote: »

I'd be concerned that a news/talk only licence for Dublin wouldn't be financially viable. Talk is expensive, even if they rented in their news content off Newstalk to reduce costs and were allowed play a decent % international content like RTÉ Choice did.

would that matter though. surely as a business companies should be able to put on a station and if it doesn't work out so be it? frequencies permitting of course

L1011

end of the road wrote: »

would that matter though. surely as a business companies should be able to put on a station and if it doesn't work out so be it? frequencies permitting of course

The (current) system for obtaining a licence requires a very expensive application and a commitment to studios etc. If they allowed stations to go on on something closer to a trial-with-fulltime-intent basis this would be much less of an issue.

The BAI also seems to be utterly against the idea of a station closing, currently.

Trick of the Tail

The concern as to whether a station is viable or not needs to stop.

No one has to convince anyone if a newspaper, or butchers shop will be viable in a market, so why a radio station?

The only people who should be concerned about that are the people proposing to run the station itself.

Radio is the only industry I can think of that is restricted this way.

Crazy.

SavageEYE

Trick of the Tail wrote: »

The concern as to whether a station is viable or not needs to stop.

No one has to convince anyone if a newspaper, or butchers shop will be viable in a market, so why a radio station?

The only people who should be concerned about that are the people proposing to run the station itself.

Radio is the only industry I can think of that is restricted this way.

Crazy.

There is an abundance of paper to print newspapers and meat to serve butchers but frequencies? Not so much.

I see that as the reason for heavy regulation. A frequency is a valuable commodity and if it is to be "leased" to a party it should be one that has a solid business plan in place working within BAI regulation.

IMO, in Dublin there are a couple of stations who should have their licenses revoked, Sunshine for clearly running the radio station on life support with one live show per day and TXFM/Phantom for being a complete failure from the word go. Revoke and re-advertise.

end of the road

SavageEYE wrote: »

There is an abundance of paper to print newspapers and meat to serve butchers but frequencies? Not so much.

I see that as the reason for heavy regulation. A frequency is a valuable commodity and if it is to be "leased" to a party it should be one that has a solid business plan in place working within BAI regulation.

IMO, in Dublin there are a couple of stations who should have their licenses revoked, Sunshine for clearly running the radio station on life support with one live show per day and TXFM/Phantom for being a complete failure from the word go. Revoke and re-advertise.

you do have a point. either highly regulate and take licences off those who don't stick within the format, or just allow whoever to apply frequencies permitting, allowing them to change format, but they must stay different to the others. hard to know what to do i suppose. the situation at the moment of keep a station on air at all costs needs to begone though

Expunge

I'd agree with that, too.

Consortium bids for x format with glossy and expensive bid, including morkesh research, indicating it's a sure thing.

Chief Exec and PD get facked out the door within year as panic stalks the station on the back of abysmal JNLRs and the board start lobbying the BAI to get x format changed to Y format (middle of the market) where there are already many independent and publicly funded stations.

Fresh capital is promised only if the format/name is allowed to be changed.

BAI does a great impression of a labrador rolling over to have it's belly tickled.
How many times have we seen that?

It's because FM spectrum is finite that the BAI should grow a bollix and rescind licences if a business is unable to honour it's committment, end of story.

SimonMaher

Question has to be asked though as to what "heavy regulation" gives us. Has it delivered diversity in terms of programming? Diversity in terms of ownership? Is "heavy regulation" flexible enough to allow for changes in technology, listener behaviour or the economic environment? If the answer to any of the above is no, then perhaps now is the time to think about a different approach. Listeners don't care about regulations or the BAI or restrictive licencing - they only care about what comes out of their radios. If it's good, they will listen, and if not we lose them.

Simon

L1011

Trick of the Tail wrote: »

No one has to convince anyone if a newspaper, or butchers shop will be viable in a market, so why a radio station?

Until such point as the BAI is willing to let a station fail, they're responsible for ensuring that they *should* be viable. Of course, we've seen multiple plans turn out to not work as planned recently.

Harry Palmr

The 4FM saga ought to indicate that you can ultimately do as you please in the market just so long as you stay on air and so validate the BAIs "judgement"

zoobizoo

Maybe We can't commercially sustain anymore channels due to being such a small country.

More Music

SavageEYE wrote: »

....A frequency is a valuable commodity and if it is to be "leased" to a party it should be one that has a solid business plan in place working within BAI regulation....

IMO, in Dublin there are a couple of stations who should have their licenses revoked, Sunshine for clearly running the radio station on life support with one live show per day and TXFM/Phantom for being a complete failure from the word go. Revoke and re-advertise.

I'd agree with that. Frequencies are a valuable national resource.

I don't think the market can really sustain more stations. None of the recently launched stations are turning profits. The more established ones (early 1990's) are doing ok.

Regarding Dublin's Country, here's the last few songs played. No, I wasn't listening, pulled them from a feed:

BEACH BOYS - GOD ONLY KNOWS
PHIL COLLINS, MARALIN MARTIN - SEPARATE LIVES Current Song
GALLAGHER AND LYLE - BREAKAWAY
PEABO BRYSON, ROBERTA FLACK - TONIGHT I CELEBRATE MY LOVE
NEIL DIAMOND - HELLO AGAIN
BEYONCE - IF I WERE A BOY
STEVIE WONDER - ISN'T SHE LOVELY
MARY BLACK - ADAM AT THE WINDOW
DUSTY SPRINGFIELD - I JUST DON'T KNOW WHAT TO DO WITH MYSELF
ELTON JOHN - I GUESS THATS WHY THEY CALL IT THE BLUES
KELLY CLARKSON - A MOMENT LIKE THIS

SimonMaher

Perceived frequency shortages were being put forward as a barrier twenty years ago (long before Dublin got 7 more radio stations!) and will continue to be. Red herring then, red herring now. If frequency availability becomes an issue (only ever going to be a potential issue in large urban areas), then we should at least take a stab at something in the digital world and the problem goes away.

In terms of viability - the issue would appear to be not neccessarily the market but the model. If a radio station which a small audience wants can only bring in 500k in revenue each year, then presumably (like in every other business in the capitalist world) that business needs a model which limits its costs to 499,999 a year. Hey presto, viability.

Finally, for Dublins Country - The new licence is not for a country music service at all. Sunshine are now licenced as an easy-listening station with some country crossover. That's exactly what the list above suggests.

Simon

SavageEYE

SimonMaher wrote: »

Listeners don't care about regulations or the BAI or restrictive licencing - they only care about what comes out of their radios. If it's good, they will listen, and if not we lose them.

Simon

While that may be true, we cannot continue to have a situation where broadcasters can get on-air with a loose business plan only to do as they please when things don't go their way a year or two down the line. We've seen this with 4FM, Sunshine, TXFM etc. and it is doing nothing but damage to the industry.

I would agree the digital platform should be untilised to allow neiche services come to market, but to permit them on FM with small audience appeal is going to prove itself a failure time and time again.

The broad system of regulation and licensing of radio on any platform needs to be assessed.

Trick of the Tail

Availability of FM frequencies isn't a problem. And then you have the possibility of licensing dab muxes without huge financial overheads, and and let niche stations use dab.

The only people who should be concerned about the viability should be the stations themselves. If they get a frequency, and after a year they go bust because not enough people are listening to their ethnic Nepalese nose-flute music, then tough. Release the licence to allow someone a go.

What's the problem?

Any updates on the new licences?

L1011

zorro2566 wrote: »

Any updates on the new licences?

Until the BAI website announces them, they don't exist.

petronius

I think there is scope for some national services - such as a Talksport, Country and Dance Music
I would like the idea of talk sport show which would be obliged to cover minority sports, covering say the Irish Cricket team, Hockey, athletics, cycling, as well as the Rugby, Hurling, Football and Soccer.

doc11

petronius wrote: »

I think there is scope for some national services - such as a Talksport, Country and Dance Music
I would like the idea of talk sport show which would be obliged to cover minority sports, covering say the Irish Cricket team, Hockey, athletics, cycling, as well as the Rugby, Hurling, Football and Soccer.

There is no scope for such stations. Country music is already well served by the locals, rte/newstalk has all major sports covered and dance niches by the regional youth,locals and 2fm. Your living in dreamland if you think that a minority sports station would work on a commercial basis. Fivelive(massively supported by the bbc) and certainly talksport don't really cover minority sports and teamtalk 252 failed. Cannibalizing the existing market by segmenting the market further is pointless.

TallGlass

SavageEYE wrote: »

I really think there is a strong case for a licensed 'dance' station in Dublin/Ireland. There is certainly people within a wide spanning demographic who listen to dance orientated music, which is now itself such a broad genre with roots back to the late 80's. It has never been catered for on a full time basis legally in this country and the fact that the majority of pirates that exist around the country with an evidential large following play dance music I think says it all really.

As much as I dislike what RTE do most of the time, the one thing I do like is RTE Pulse. It should be made main stream on an ASAP basis. Or give one of the better dance super pirates a license.

end of the road

doc11 wrote: »

dance niches by the regional youth,locals and 2fm.

not fully. only certain genres. irish pirates, uk pirates via the internet and other internet stations are your best bet for dance.

doc11 wrote: »

Cannibalizing the existing market by segmenting the market further is pointless.

its not pointless. as radio stations are businesses, then such a station should be let on air. if it works it works, if it fails it fails. thats how commercial radio should be, as its not a socially necessary service

doc11

end of the road wrote: »

not fully. only certain genres. irish pirates, uk pirates via the internet and other internet stations are your best bet for dance.

There's a reason they're only online and it not only a licence.

its not pointless. as radio stations are businesses, then such a station should be let on air. if it works it works, if it fails it fails. thats how commercial radio should be, as its not a socially necessary service

You can't licence stations that don't have merit/audience and are doomed for failure.You can't just open a shop/business were ever you want either.

By licencing stations your undermining the existing stations audiences and dividing a limited advertising pot perhaps not only bring down themselves but a competitor in the process. It's not fair when stations can gain a licence under one remit, fail and rebrand under another.

end of the road

doc11 wrote: »

There's a reason they're only online and it not only a licence.

yes, that reason is that licencing one would mean a duming down of the offering so a licence has everything to do with the reason there isn't a legal dance music station on air, it would be to restricted, there is just no point. they aren't only online. a number on fm as pirates.

doc11 wrote: »

You can't licence stations that don't have merit/audience and are doomed for failure

i'l think you will find it all ready has happened. sunshine is a long way from what its original offering was supposed to be, a country music station for dublin. same with q102 and phantom to an extent. so it can be done, and if those stations are allowed to do it, then no reason not to licence more and let the market decide.

doc11 wrote: »

You can't just open a shop/business were ever you want either.

actually if you can get planning permission you can. at least though with a shop, it sinks or swims on its own, its not protected like commercial radio

doc11 wrote: »

By licencing stations your undermining the existing stations audiences and dividing a limited advertising pot perhaps not only bring down themselves but a competitor in the process.

tough. they are businesses. adapt or shut down

doc11 wrote: »

It's not fair when stations can gain a licence under one remit, fail and rebrand under another.

well, the BAI seems to think so. but yes i agree to an extent. either let them fail, or licence more and let the market decide who wins and who shuts down

Declan A Walsh

With all the largely negative discussions on threads about Today FM and 2FM and the demise of TX FM last October and the apparent general dissatisfaction with the state of radio in Ireland today on various threads, I think it might be a good opportunity to bring up this particular topic again.

So I already did my "brain storming" first time round! Does anybody else have any ideas on the subject of possible licences?

radioguru02

Imo, dance music should be left to the pirates. I agree that a lot of them seem to come on air with a similar format and that a lot of their output in Dublin is solely house, but new stations do pop up and usually one station will be replaced by another after one has spent a certain amount of time on air, due to factors such as funding, raids or purely a lack of listeners. Take the pirates with the nearly-all-house music policies: No decent operator of a pirate with a strong signal is going to continue to pay for the running of the station if it has few listeners, hence, they are likely to close and another station will take the frequency and give it a go, perhaps with a different format. I think this is a nice little system where the dance pirates are concerned because they can give it a go and if it doesn't work they can just ditch it. Personally I like the reshuffling of stations every few months or years. If it carried a format that appealed to me then it's just my bad luck.
Any licensed dance station would either become an all commercial dance station or another youth station

TallGlass

Specialist Dance station, requirement for songs to be over a certain BPM to avoid drifting from licence. Strict conditions to allow all types of dance so it's not one sided. Reduction on regulations so it can flourish, if needed regs to be phased in with listenership increasing.

Specialist 90s station. Strict conditions of 90s only music. None of this ' doesn't have to be an oldy to be a classic' crack. Again regs same as above.

SimonMaher

Jaysus Declan, this really is a vintage thread

Interesting though that the expression of Interest phase that Trick of the Tail was talking about in 2015 never happened. It was thought that there would be one in advance of the publication of the BAI Strategy for 2017-2019 but that strategy was published today and despite some research input from IPSOS/MRBI, there was no direct approach to industry about future licencing.

You can read the BAI Strategy here: http://www.bai.ie/en/about-us/our-strategic-goals/

It's all very vague and well-intentioned but only time will tell (and the Broadcasting Services Strategy) whether anything comes of it. Even linguistically, it is in stark contrast to the language used in the OFCOM proposals for further deregulation of Broadcasting in the UK published last week.

Even putting my own obvious self-interest to one side it would appear to be self-evident that the best means of progression at this point is to figure out what services are desirable (from a plurality and diversity perspective) and then build the business and regulatory model around that. We appear to work backwards which is not helping and helps us less and less as the world of broadcasting and media changes rapidly.

I shall now alight from my soapbox

Simon

The Parish Priest.

What this country needs is massive deregulation of radio, if someone wants to launch a dance station, an 90s station or far right talk station let them

L1011

The Parish Priest. wrote: »

What this country needs is massive deregulation of radio, if someone wants to launch a dance station, an 90s station or far right talk station let them

There isn't much actual bandwidth available in Dublin (where most stations would want to launch) - the few frequencies used for temps are about all that aren't spoken for really. Italy's level of deregulation means that stations can find they have a coverage of miles due to another station on the same or an adjacent frequency.

Needs to be a reduction in regulations on existing stations in terms of news/talk content, language and music origins. I suspect deregulating music entirely would lead to basically two station types otherwise identical amongst the existing stations - chart and MOR/oldies (+country in rural areas)

Infoanon

L1011 wrote: »

There isn't much actual bandwidth available in Dublin (where most stations would want to launch) - the few frequencies used for temps are about all that aren't spoken for really. Italy's level of deregulation means that stations can find they have a coverage of miles due to another station on the same or an adjacent frequency.

Needs to be a reduction in regulations on existing stations in terms of news/talk content, language and music origins. I suspect deregulating music entirely would lead to basically two station types otherwise identical amongst the existing stations - chart and MOR/oldies (+country in rural areas)

In Dublin there are about ten+ frequencies available - obviously at varying power ranges 87.6/88.1/91.6/92.1/94.3/97.3/99.5/102.5/105.2/105.7/107.1(or 107.3)/107.8 (and arguably .6Mhz is to big a gap for high power transmissions)
Alas there is no urgency to allow any new applicants to the market,current licence holders are only to happy to maintain the status quo - long term this short sightedness may lead to the loss of a lot more radio stations then the potential losers if new applicants are allowed enter the market.

doc11

Infoanon wrote: »

In Dublin there are about ten+ frequencies available - obviously at varying power ranges 87.6/88.1/91.6/92.1/94.3/97.3/99.5/102.5/105.2/105.7/107.1(or 107.3)/107.8 (and arguably .6Mhz is to big a gap for high power transmissions)
Alas there is no urgency to allow any new applicants to the market,current licence holders are only to happy to maintain the status quo - long term this short sightedness may lead to the loss of a lot more radio stations then the potential losers if new applicants are allowed enter the market.

Explain this logic. More radio stations means less failures? look around most small stations are just surviving, if Txfm can't survive and 4fm making losses what exactly do you think is missing in the dublin market that if launched wouldn't end in failure?

L1011

Infoanon wrote: »

In Dublin there are about ten+ frequencies available - obviously at varying power ranges 87.6/88.1/91.6/92.1/94.3/97.3/99.5/102.5/105.2/105.7/107.1(or 107.3)/107.8 (and arguably .6Mhz is to big a gap for high power transmissions)
Alas there is no urgency to allow any new applicants to the market,current licence holders are only to happy to maintain the status quo - long term this short sightedness may lead to the loss of a lot more radio stations then the potential losers if new applicants are allowed enter the market.

Some of those would have to be pathetically low power to avoid interference - 97.3 would clash with KFM for one.

Infoanon

doc11 wrote: »

Explain this logic. More radio stations means less failures? look around most small stations are just surviving, if Txfm can't survive and 4fm making losses what exactly do you think is missing in the dublin market that if launched wouldn't end in failure?

Ask the question why are they making losses ? - preventing new entrants is not going to stop the losses,all that will happen long term is that listeners will abandon FM and find what they want on eg internet

Infoanon

L1011 wrote: »

Some of those would have to be pathetically low power to avoid interference - 97.3 would clash with KFM for one.

97.3 has been used in Dublin City already albeit at 25watts - with 97.6 reception available for KFM I don't see why a few hundred watts from an appropriate site with appropriate directional antenna would not be viable for a city service.

marno21

Infoanon wrote: »

In Dublin there are about ten+ frequencies available - obviously at varying power ranges 87.6/88.1/91.6/92.1/94.3/97.3/99.5/102.5/105.2/105.7/107.1(or 107.3)/107.8 (and arguably .6Mhz is to big a gap for high power transmissions)
Alas there is no urgency to allow any new applicants to the market,current licence holders are only to happy to maintain the status quo - long term this short sightedness may lead to the loss of a lot more radio stations then the potential losers if new applicants are allowed enter the market.

87.6, 102.5 and 105.7 are 0.2 away from Clermont Carn national frequencies. 92.1 is 0.1 away from Spirit Radio's Saggart frequency. The only realistic one for high power from Three Rock would be 105.2MHz. Several of the others could be used for low power suburban/city centre services but they won't be cleared from Three Rock.

Infoanon

marno21 wrote: »

87.6, 102.5 and 105.7 are 0.2 away from Clermont Carn national frequencies. 92.1 is 0.1 away from Spirit Radio's Saggart frequency. The only realistic one for high power from Three Rock would be 105.2MHz. Several of the others could be used for low power suburban/city centre services but they won't be cleared from Three Rock.

I would disagree about 87.6 & 105.7 - both could be used for a Dublin City service from 3 Rock with reasonable power.

Spirits 92.2 is not aimed at Dublin - 92.1/92.0 are perfectly useable in Dublin

rogue-entity

In Dublin there are about ten+ frequencies available - obviously at varying power ranges 87.6/88.1/91.6/92.1/94.3/97.3/99.5/102.5/105.2/105.7/107.1(or 107.3)/107.8 (and arguably .6Mhz is to big a gap for high power transmissions)
Alas there is no urgency to allow any new applicants to the market,current licence holders are only to happy to maintain the status quo - long term this short sightedness may lead to the loss of a lot more radio stations then the potential losers if new applicants are allowed enter the market.

In Waterford at least, you have: 87.9, 89.3, 91.5, 93.7, 98.9, 103.5-106.6 all free, with only 105.1 being used by a weekend pirate and 103.8 being used occasionally by Christmas FM.

The state of Radio in the south east almost suggests a cosy relationship between vested interests, but it is rather laughable when a station can say "Number One in X" when they're the only fupping station serving the region.
The BAI will allow anybody to launch a radio station on someone else's platform vis-a-vis digital content licence which right now anybody could get and launch a station on Cable, Satellite etc yet if the same individuals want to launch an FM or AM broadcasting station they'll be told "sorry, no licence is available" in a very polite way and be left only with option of running a temp station for 30 days every year or running a pirate.
I would suggest removing this special protection that FM/AM broadcasters get and allow anyone to apply to Comreg for the frequency; Comreg would make sure the transmissions are in-spec and the BAI would issue a content licence which would come with requirements to adhere to the terms of the 2009 Broadcasting Act (e.g. you couldn't start up a station and then slander a bunch of folk without repercussion).
But honestly I do not see that happening any time soon, there are far too many wealthy interests who like things just the way they are, so nothing is going to change.

marno21

Regarding Waterford, there should really be 4FM TXs in Waterford. Bizarre leaving Waterford out

radioguru02

Yeah we have nothing here in Waterford. Wlr is unbearable, crap dj's and the same songs over and over. Beat was ok once but now has dj's with fake American accents and like wlr have become very repettettive, only those who can pick up Opentempo in the city have something to listen to on the fm dial, on weekends at least, though it is rumoured they are to start broadcasting 24/7

Infoanon

pirateradiohed wrote: »

Yeah we have nothing here in Waterford. Wlr is unbearable, crap dj's and the same songs over and over. Beat was ok once but now has dj's with fake American accents and like wlr have become very repettettive, only those who can pick up Opentempo in the city have something to listen to on the fm dial, on weekends at least, though it is rumoured they are to start broadcasting 24/7

And to think you once had the great ABC Power 104 - never understood why Waterford does not have a 4FM relay

mollser

Don't normally post around here, but since the demise of txfm and what today fm has turned into, I would love to see the Rte dab stations launched on fm. To be fair they do a good job with 2xm in particular, great variety on there. Amazing what a station can be without the bai and commercial dictate put on them. Very like triple j in Australia, proper use of the license fee

Losty Dublin

Infoanon wrote: »

never understood why Waterford does not have a 4FM relay

That's actually a blessing in disguise for them

Harry Palmr

marno21 wrote: »

Regarding Waterford, there should really be 4FM TXs in Waterford. Bizarre leaving Waterford out

Ah there's a story behind that (it's been alleged!) , in the event we lost out on nothing but the fact the SE was probably locked out by design is of course infuriating.

Declan A Walsh

Having heard some of Radio Nova's "punk" weekend and read the Radio Nova thread posts re same, it got me thinking about a possible radio licence.

How about an alternative oldies music station? I'm thinking of a radio station that plays largely '70s and '80s music - punk, new wave, indie, maybe even pub rock (Dr. Feelgood, etc.) - you get the idea! It might also have some specialist shows featuring alternative rock from the '60s that influenced the punk scene and alternative rock from the '90s influenced by the '70s and '80s.

This kind of station could attract a largely older audience than the fickle younger audience that Phantom/TXFM were aiming for.

Ursus Horribilis

Seeing as 2fm and Today FM have decided that anyone over the age of 25 is persona non grata, a radio station that appeals to people who are caught in no-man's land. Too old for the aforementioned stations yet too young for Radio 1.

Radio Gold

mollser wrote: »

Don't normally post around here, but since the demise of txfm and what today fm has turned into, I would love to see the Rte dab stations launched on fm. To be fair they do a good job with 2xm in particular, great variety on there. Amazing what a station can be without the bai and commercial dictate put on them. Very like triple j in Australia, proper use of the license fee

RTE won't put their DAB Stations on FM.