Aer Lingus Fleet/Routes Discussion

Bussywussy

ISOP wrote: »

Bussywussy wrote: »

There's was a choice of 2 -300 aircraft they could of swapped to do the 123 and grounded the one with technical issue....don't know the reason why not

No crew to fly it as I understand it, the time spend messing around trying to rectify the issue meant the crew had worked over their flight time allowed

Could of swapped well before the troubleshooting started if it was a serious issue...

Jamie2k9

HTCOne wrote: »

Because people start wearing out and getting sick. We see it in ATC all the time, people put their shoulder to the wheel for too long and end up getting every bug under the sun for the next few months because their body clocks and immune systems are all over the place, or they get fatigue.

Those 900 hour FTLs are a hard limit, not a target, unfortunately many companies don’t see it that way.

They would be mad not to get crew to complete there max hours. This shouldn't have any bearing on the current issues with crewing.

Tenger

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

They would be mad not to get crew to complete there max hours. This shouldn't have any bearing on the current issues with crewing.

I can understand the desire to utilise resources to the max. In the current aviation sector you have to remain lean and efficient.
But the lack of 'padding' around those resources is an issue. If you plan to reach 850 hours per pilot/csbin crew then you can only absorb ~45 hours delay throughout the year before that resource is exhausted.
With a small number of additional bodies (which obviously increase salary cost) you could plan to operate 820-840 hours per year. Thus you have more resilience for disruptions.

Same logic with your aircraft really. Give them a bit of time each day for check outs and minor fixes.

California Dreamer

HTCOne wrote: »

Those 900 hour FTLs are a hard limit, not a target, unfortunately many companies don’t see it that way.

Slight tangent. Same push for a new FO in Ryanair and can get his command in 3ish years. How long from right to left seat in EI?

HTCOne

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

They would be mad not to get crew to complete there max hours. This shouldn't have any bearing on the current issues with crewing.

Disagree.

Say you’re running an airline on the above philosophy....

Captain or FO X stuffs their car on the way into work, who do you call as cover? Not your own crew because you’ve already maxed them out....you need HiFly

Pilot Y gets a cancer diagnosis...off for 18 months....but you can’t cover them internally because all your employed crew are maxed out...HiFly.....or Titan....


My point being, you can’t max every staff member because these things happen. That’s why you aren’t supposed to aim for the FTLs as a target, because you won’t be able to cover your own shortfalls. There’s a middle ground.

Jack1985

joeysoap wrote: »

My understanding is the 900 hours is the max flying hours. Doesn’t count the waiting around hours , boarding or unboarding hours etc. I don’t know, is it an EU ruling?

Anyway my understanding is that AL run it to the wire every year since it was increased a few years ago. I don’t know when the year ‘starts’.

1st of Jan, 850 (through agreement, 1000 is now the EASA limit) is our block hours limit which encompasses the time from push back to chocks on. Our Duty hours (from report to clearance of customs) can go upward of 1,500 in a year. It’s more so the time from Nov to Dec when everyone’s hours are screwed we seem to run into issues, however it’s early October and it’s a reflection of the usual bad planning and rostering which is well known. It’s costing them close to the 200K for each hire in, you’d have an extra few employees there in that one cost.

NH2013

Don’t think the A330 issue is due to crew maxing out and running out of their hours per say, it’s more that all crew have been pushed to their legal limits as targets all year long and over a particularly difficult summer which is resulting in high levels of fatigue and burnout among pilots, higher levels than observed in previous years due to the tougher summer which has caught Aer Lingus management by surprise.

Just because a limit is legal, doesn’t mean it’s healthy on the body, particularly amongst long haul crews constantly experiencing jet lag and time zone changes for 6 months straight over a summer with no relent, very hard on immune systems and mental health and higher numbers than expected are now just unable to go on holding illness at bay. Crew are humans, not machines, you can’t expect them to work to such limits as targets and not expect to see higher levels of sick leave as a result. From what I’ve heard though it is rare in Aer Lingus for A330 Pilots to do more than 800 hours in a year so from that point there should still be some fat in the system.

Locker10a

God only know what next year will look like with the new aircraft and routes coming, surely they’ll have to recruit more pilots and crew!?

Kcormahs

The following routes for next year still for sale on a 757-200 seat map: BDL PHL MSP and JFK/BOS out of Shannon. Will aer lingus get an extra 757 or will they change one of these routes to a a321LR / a330 before next summer? I'd easily see PHL going on an a330 or BDL getting an a321LR due to the recent new signed agreement between BDL Airport and Dublin "Aer Lingus said it will devote one of its four A321neoLR aircrafts to the Bradley-to-Dublin route."
Also I am surprised that a 757-200 reaches MSP departing from DUB

http://www.hartfordbusiness.com/article/20180913/NEWS01/180919954/aer-lingus-extends-commitment-to-bradley-airport-ct-reduces-revenue-guarantee

Kcormahs

Although this isn't for sale yet, SNN (and possibly ORK) are getting a 737 ASL leased aircraft to operate FAO and AGP during the summer just like in BHD. This will free up one or two a320(s). Would these 2 a320s be deployed on new DUB/ORK routes or help on increasing capacity on existing ones? (either sunny destinations or European Key markets such as CDG/AMS/FCO)

California Dreamer

Kcormahs wrote: »

The following routes for next year still for sale on a 757-200 seat map: BDL PHL MSP and JFK/BOS out of Shannon. Will aer lingus get an extra 757 or will they change one of these routes to a a321LR / a330 before next summer? I'd easily see PHL going on an a330 or BDL getting an a321LR due to the recent new signed agreement between BDL Airport and Dublin "Aer Lingus said it will devote one of its four A321neoLR aircrafts to the Bradley-to-Dublin route."
Also I am surprised that a 757-200 reaches MSP departing from DUB

http://www.hartfordbusiness.com/article/20180913/NEWS01/180919954/aer-lingus-extends-commitment-to-bradley-airport-ct-reduces-revenue-guarantee

As was discussed in this thread previously, the A321LR are looking like they are going to be delayed further and may not be ready for next summer. Look back earlier in the thread and you'll find it.

The same for the 2nd ASL 737, a look back at earlier posts will give you the answers you want.

JCX BXC

Kcormahs wrote: »

Although this isn't for sale yet, SNN (and possibly ORK) are getting a 737 ASL leased aircraft to operate FAO and AGP during the summer just like in BHD. This will free up one or two a320(s).

It won't free up a full A320 for SNN, it'll free up 1 daily rotation at most. (On an ORK based aircraft) Also what'll the 737 do at Shannon for the rest of the time? More routes? Perhaps a W rotation? (which still leaves room).

Locker10a

Is the ASL 737 arrangement going to be the same as the 757 arrangment ie some form of EI livery and EI crew onboard?

Shn99

Locker10a wrote: »

Is the ASL 737 arrangement going to be the same as the 757 arrangment ie some form of EI livery and EI crew onboard?

Probably not as the 737s will probably be only a summer lease. Perhaps ASL crew with 1 EI representative like the BHD 737 ops

vectorvictor

JCX BXC wrote: »

It won't free up a full A320 for SNN, it'll free up 1 daily rotation at most. (On an ORK based aircraft) Also what'll the 737 do at Shannon for the rest of the time? More routes? Perhaps a W rotation? (which still leaves room).

I think this is most likely Ork-X-Snn-X-Ork with a 320 also "double youing". Would think only one 320 would be freed

Shn99

vectorvictor wrote: »

I think this is most likely Ork-X-Snn-X-Ork with a 320 also "double youing". Would think only one 320 would be freed

I’ve spoken to some sources in SNN and 1 within EI and they’re saying 1 737 each to be based at SNN & ORK (737-400s coming from the desert apparently)

Locker10a

Shn99 wrote: »

vectorvictor wrote: »

I think this is most likely Ork-X-Snn-X-Ork with a 320 also "double youing". Would think only one 320 would be freed

I’ve spoken to some sources in SNN and 1 within EI and they’re saying 1 737 each to be based at SNN & ORK (737-400s coming from the desert apparently)

That’s interesting, to be fair, there’s probably scope for 1 aircraft in each base doing holiday flights, although does SNN normally have daily flights with EI to AGP,FAO etc ?
I’m guessing ASL has sourced frames and will kit them out with new cabins !? Would I be right in thinking frames that go to the desert would have engines and interiors removed?

Jamie2k9

HTCOne wrote: »

Disagree.

Say you’re running an airline on the above philosophy....

Captain or FO X stuffs their car on the way into work, who do you call as cover? Not your own crew because you’ve already maxed them out....you need HiFly

Pilot Y gets a cancer diagnosis...off for 18 months....but you can’t cover them internally because all your employed crew are maxed out...HiFly.....or Titan....


My point being, you can’t max every staff member because these things happen. That’s why you aren’t supposed to aim for the FTLs as a target, because you won’t be able to cover your own shortfalls. There’s a middle ground.

There is a big difference between running them to the max and having no contingent planning. As an company yes they should work crew to limits or close and still manage to have adequate resources available. The latter EI have failed on.

JCX BXC

Locker10a wrote: »

That’s interesting, to be fair, there’s probably scope for 1 aircraft in each base doing holiday flights, although does SNN normally have daily flights with EI to AGP,FAO etc ?
I’m guessing ASL has sourced frames and will kit them out with new cabins !? Would I be right in thinking frames that go to the desert would have engines and interiors removed?

It's daily between AGP/FAO, 3x on AGP and 4x on Faro, that's what confuses me. Perhaps more routes would be announced?

duskyjoe

Kcormahs wrote: »

Also I am surprised that a 757-200 reaches MSP departing from DUB

Ditto

Locker10a

JCX BXC wrote: »

Locker10a wrote: »

That’s interesting, to be fair, there’s probably scope for 1 aircraft in each base doing holiday flights, although does SNN normally have daily flights with EI to AGP,FAO etc ?
I’m guessing ASL has sourced frames and will kit them out with new cabins !? Would I be right in thinking frames that go to the desert would have engines and interiors removed?

It's daily between AGP/FAO, 3x on AGP and 4x on Faro, that's what confuses me. Perhaps more routes would be announced?

Don’t they also have ACE route from SNN, that could possibly fill in the gaps

JCX BXC

Locker10a wrote: »

Don’t they also have ACE route from SNN, that could possibly fill in the gaps

Only winter and 1pw, but that could be extended to summer in that case. Even then only 1pw.

highlydebased

JCX BXC wrote: »

Locker10a wrote: »

That’s interesting, to be fair, there’s probably scope for 1 aircraft in each base doing holiday flights, although does SNN normally have daily flights with EI to AGP,FAO etc ?
I’m guessing ASL has sourced frames and will kit them out with new cabins !? Would I be right in thinking frames that go to the desert would have engines and interiors removed?

It's daily between AGP/FAO, 3x on AGP and 4x on Faro, that's what confuses me. Perhaps more routes would be announced?

Assuming they'd up the ante a bit if they were basing an aircraft, would both routes go to daily with something else announced?

alancostello

duskyjoe wrote: »

Kcormahs wrote: »

Also I am surprised that a 757-200 reaches MSP departing from DUB

Ditto

It’s only 60mi further than ORD which United fly on a 752.

Tenger

Locker10a wrote: »

Is the ASL 737 arrangement going to be the same as the 757 arrangment ie some form of EI livery and EI crew onboard?

Well ASL have their own crews for the B737 so I assume they will use those.
The B757 operation was a special case in that EI were leasing the aircraft (or at least doing so jointly with ASL) and then getting ASL to operate ex-SNN. At the time ASL didnt have B757s in their inventory. (if memory serves)

alancostello wrote: »

It’s only 60mi further than ORD which United fly on a 752.

Which itself is a stretch.

goingnowhere

The 737 (and the RJ with CityJet) is a wet lease, crew, aircraft, insurance etc

The 757 is a damp lease, same as wet but the cabin crew are provided by the lessee

The ASL 757 gig is further complicated that EI allowed a number of its pilots to take a leave of absence to fly for ASL to make up the numbers, they all come back to EI when the 757's go off lease and presumably would be flying A321NEO LR once it comes in.

Locker10a

Thanks for the replies guys, I just thought it might be like 757 deal as I find it odd that EI staff are quite happily sitting by and watching more and more EI flights being essentially outsourced. If they were to fully remove an a320 from both SNN and ORK as previously mentioned that would surely mean locally based crew losing their jobs or being moved to another base. If it’s just an additional temporary summer capacity boost in the form of an ACMI then it’s a bit different and I understand that. It’s also the fact that ASL only operate 1 737 in Ireland, and they’re rumourd to be sourcing craft from the desert for this new deal,this suggests they’ll also have to recruit additional crew, I highly doubt they have loads of 737 crew sitting around Cork and Shannon waiting for work. So this made me wonder would they just use at least EI cc as per 757 but thanks for the clarification, guess we will wait and see.

Jamie2k9

Locker10a wrote: »

Thanks for the replies guys, I just thought it might be like 757 deal as I find it odd that EI staff are quite happily sitting by and watching more and more EI flights being essentially outsourced. If they were to fully remove an a320 from both SNN and ORK as previously mentioned that would surely mean locally based crew losing their jobs or being moved to another base. If it’s just an additional temporary summer capacity boost in the form of an ACMI then it’s a bit different and I understand that. It’s also the fact that ASL only operate 1 737 in Ireland, and they’re rumourd to be sourcing craft from the desert for this new deal,this suggests they’ll also have to recruit additional crew, I highly doubt they have loads of 737 crew sitting around Cork and Shannon waiting for work. So this made me wonder would they just use at least EI cc as per 757 but thanks for the clarification, guess we will wait and see.

The only reason its happening and there is little discussion about it is because Aer Lingus themselves are expanding by 1-3 aircraft per year. If it was a case of them reducing aircraft it would be a different story. In addition Belfast base was closed so what could unions do when it was a completely different agreement from day 1 when it opened.

Locker10a

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Locker10a wrote: »

Thanks for the replies guys, I just thought it might be like 757 deal as I find it odd that EI staff are quite happily sitting by and watching more and more EI flights being essentially outsourced. If they were to fully remove an a320 from both SNN and ORK as previously mentioned that would surely mean locally based crew losing their jobs or being moved to another base. If it’s just an additional temporary summer capacity boost in the form of an ACMI then it’s a bit different and I understand that. It’s also the fact that ASL only operate 1 737 in Ireland, and they’re rumourd to be sourcing craft from the desert for this new deal,this suggests they’ll also have to recruit additional crew, I highly doubt they have loads of 737 crew sitting around Cork and Shannon waiting for work. So this made me wonder would they just use at least EI cc as per 757 but thanks for the clarification, guess we will wait and see.

The only reason its happening and there is little discussion about it is because Aer Lingus themselves are expanding by 1-3 aircraft per year. If it was a case of them reducing aircraft it would be a different story. In addition Belfast base was closed so what could unions do when it was a completely different agreement from day 1 when it opened.

Oh I didn’t realise BHD was closed as base, expansion aside I’d be surprised if jobs were let go or redeployed in SNN or ORK without a word said, replaced by an ACMI outfit

Jack1985

Locker10a wrote: »

Oh I didn’t realise BHD was closed as base, expansion aside I’d be surprised if jobs were let go or redeployed in SNN or ORK without a word said, replaced by an ACMI outfit

To clarify the BHD Cabin Crew base remains open. They operate the BHD-LHR with limited supplement from DUB Cabin Crew operating some legs via an overnight in London. To further clarify EI’s only cockpit crew bases are DUB/ORK.

This speculation with regards to 73s being based in ORK/SNN and to supplement seasonal operation none of this has been tabled internally and I imagine would be met with some discussions primarily to prevent direct outsourcing. Union lee-way in BHD is very low as the crew there operate as Aer Lingus GB, hence why EI freely outsourced BHD-FAO/AGP to an ASL 73 freely and for the next couple of years I believe.

adam88

basill wrote: »

Unfortunately AL doesn't have duty pay like many other airlines. So if we come into work and sit around waiting for snow to clear/aircraft to get fixed then we get paid our annual salaries but no sector pay as we didn't fly.

Can someone explain both cabin crew and flight crew pay. No specifics but just a quick jist of it please

duskyjoe

adam are u a journo ?

midfield dynamo

adam88 wrote: »

Can someone explain both cabin crew and flight crew pay. No specifics but just a quick jist of it please

Flight crew get paid to fly the planes. Cabin crew get paid to look after the passengers. Hope that clears it up for you.

Jack1985

midfield dynamo wrote: »

Flight crew get paid to fly the planes. Cabin crew get paid to look after the passengers. Hope that clears it up for you.

Pay scales vary, both are paid per duty time - extra additional pay is duty specific plus additional allowances and specific pay related to grade. EI salaries are considered amongst the best in Europe, certainly minus 4 year length of service anyhow in both Flight Deck and Cabin Crew.

smurfjed

Not sure if any EI people will answer this for you Adam88, so I shall give you an example for another airline.

• Crews have a Minimum Guarantee Time depending on the aircraft, 70-78 hours block hours, after this they are paid overtime.
• Productivity payments start at 40 block hours and increase at 60 and 70.
• Annual productivity based on hours above 700
• 5% of hourly rate per hour for flight at night
• 6 Euro per hour for layovers away from base.
• Payment per hour for working on days off.

So its not easy to say how much people would earn as it would differ between fleets and people.

basill

Its airline specific. AL does not pay duty pay to its pilots. There are three elements of our earnings - salary, sector pay (once you have completed the sectors) and a variable element of pay which comprises of an hourly rate once you hit a predetermined annual target of hours.

If you want to do a salary comparison then it needs to be on a net basis. Gross figures are misleading. Ireland is the one of the highest taxed countries in the world if not the highest. And don't get me started on all the indirect taxes you are stuck with after you get your take home pay......

tnegun

Any reason for blocking exit seats until check-in is open? On EI-119 right now and 4 exits empty in front of me but they weren't available anytime I tried, none available on my return flight either in 2 weeks checked at the desk this am and they said they might come available when check-in opened?

goingnowhere

Exit rows on the A330 do not need someone seated in them for safety reasons. The front row is typically blocked and under airport control. The bassinet seats are always blocked until check in where they check if any infants are ticketed and release only if none are.

EI typically block seats to avoid the wrong aircraft issue, if you try an A320 just try to book 9A/9F

Kcormahs

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/aer-lingus-chief-to-step-down-next-year-1.3660082?mode=amp

Aer Lingus CEO stepping down

California Dreamer

Kcormahs wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/aer-lingus-chief-to-step-down-next-year-1.3660082?mode=amp

Aer Lingus CEO stepping down

Lets hope that Sean Doyle hasn't learned anything from the Alex Cruz way of doing things!

Tenger

tnegun wrote: »

Any reason for blocking exit seats until check-in is open? On EI-119 right now and 4 exits empty in front of me but they weren't available anytime I tried, none available on my return flight either in 2 weeks checked at the desk this am and they said they might come available when check-in opened?

I guess they do this to ensure no-one with a broken leg/walking stick books them and checks in online?

Jamie2k9

Going before they destroy there aircraft livery, nothing to do with me!!! :P

Tenger

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Going before they destroy there aircraft livery, nothing to do with me!!! :P

Good point. His reassurrances about the revised livery not longer holds water (obviously Im being cynical)

adam88

smurfjed wrote: »

Not sure if any EI people will answer this for you Adam88, so I shall give you an example for another airline.

• Crews have a Minimum Guarantee Time depending on the aircraft, 70-78 hours block hours, after this they are paid overtime.
• Productivity payments start at 40 block hours and increase at 60 and 70.
• Annual productivity based on hours above 700
• 5% of hourly rate per hour for flight at night
• 6 Euro per hour for layovers away from base.
• Payment per hour for working on days off.

So its not easy to say how much people would earn as it would differ between fleets and people.

Is it true that most staff are not getting paid while we board the plane ????

Or are those hours encompassed in your annual pay

duskyjoe

adam88 wrote: »

Is it true that most staff are not getting paid while we board the plane ????

Or are those hours encompassed in your annual pay

Adam are you doing a scoop as a journo? If you are you don’t belong here.

billy few mates

Tenger wrote: »

I guess they do this to ensure no-one with a broken leg/walking stick books them and checks in online?

Lufthansa lets you select these seats when you check in online but warns that there will be an additional gate check to ensure you're suitable to sit there when you swipe your boarding pass at the gate it flags red and the gate staff verify you're ok to sit there before they let you on....

Mebuntu

Despite Storm Callum, looking at the DUB Departures board this morning it seems to be operating normally except that Aer Lingus has cancelled no less than 8 flights and Rome is delayed.

On what basis would these flights (and their returns) have been cancelled when everything else is flying?

john boye

Mebuntu wrote: »

Despite Storm Callum, looking at the DUB Departures board this morning it seems to be operating normally except that Aer Lingus has cancelled no less than 8 flights and Rome is delayed.

On what basis would these flights (and their returns) have been cancelled when everything else is flying?

Different aircraft specific wind limits I'd imagine. Was the same a few years ago when FR shut down for most of the day and other airlines carried on. It could well be for something entirely different of course!

Mebuntu

john boye wrote: »

Different aircraft specific wind limits I'd imagine.

Don't think it can be that because their other A320 services departed normally.

NH2013

Mebuntu wrote: »

Despite Storm Callum, looking at the DUB Departures board this morning it seems to be operating normally except that Aer Lingus has cancelled no less than 8 flights and Rome is delayed.

On what basis would these flights (and their returns) have been cancelled when everything else is flying?

They were proactively cancelled last night in order to reduce congestion at the airport with runway 16 in use and ensure that aircraft and crew were in place to resume the schedule once the worst of the storm had passed. All the flights that were cancelled were ones with a later service in the day that passengers could be rebooked on.