Aer Lingus Fleet/Routes Discussion

troyzer

You have to wonder why airports don't have cinemas and chippers.

Absolute no brainers. Maybe a bowling alley.

California Dreamer

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/uk-regulators-to-examine-aer-lingus-takeover-of-cityjet-route-1.3680966

I can’t see the issue to be honest.

LXFlyer

Stephen Strange wrote: »

It's really not a 5 minute walk from T2 security to gate 202.

Yeah I’d have to agree. The 3XX gates are an acceptable walking distance from T2 security but expecting people to walk to the 2XX gates is taking the proverbial.

That’s a dilution of the EI product - I too would have expected them to use the bus gates to be honest.

Captain_Crash

LXFlyer wrote: »

Yeah I’d have to agree. The 3XX gates are an acceptable walking distance from T2 security but expecting people to walk to the 2XX gates is taking the proverbial.

That’s a dilution of the EI product - I too would have expected them to use the bus gates to be honest.

I know its rudimentary, but on Google maps here using that string technique for mapping we all learned in school, it doesn't appear to be that much further.

LXFlyer

Captain_Crash wrote: »

I know its rudimentary, but on Google maps here using that string technique for mapping we all learned in school, it doesn't appear to be that much further.

I’d disagree. Using my own walking timings, somewhat more realistic, by the time you reach Marquette you’d already have reached the 3XX gates. There’s still a fair walk to go beyond that to the 2XX gates taking into account the distance you’ve had to walk already.

Stephen Strange

LXFlyer wrote: »

Yeah I’d have to agree. The 3XX gates are an acceptable walking distance from T2 security but expecting people to walk to the 2XX gates is taking the proverbial.

That’s a dilution of the EI product - I too would have expected them to use the bus gates to be honest.

I'm surprised they aren't using the bus gates, considering arriving pax are brought by bus to T2.

Still shorter than some of the walks in Heathrow T2+3 and in Gatwick south and north terminals by 100-200m

Captain_Crash

LXFlyer wrote: »

I’d disagree. Using my own walking timings, somewhat more realistic, by the time you reach Marquette you’d already have reached the 3XX gates. There’s still a fair walk to go beyond that to the 2XX gates taking into account the distance you’ve had to walk already.

I'll admit, I don't have a habit of timing my walks in the airport, but I've never found any amount of walking in DUB to be that strenuous. At worst a minor inconvenience.

MuffinsDa

kevinandrew wrote: »

T2 and the long walk to T1 unfortunately. 

Moving over to T2 or at least somewhere a bit closer would have made sense and may still happen in the future but for the time being it appears unlikely. It would be Cityjet's responsibility to request new stands and move their operation but how willing they are to do that depends on the conditions of the deal with Aer Lingus.  

On the bright side not too many passengers should actually need to "check in" at T2, most on the LCY route would be savvy enough to do it online and carry hand luggage anyway, frequent flyers will be aware they can just go through security at T1 and shorten their walk. Sadly, not the same can be done for arrivals.

That's ridiculous! I'm flying with them early tomorrow morning actually, always used BA for work but this time was going with family and WX was a lot cheaper so I booked that, and then got transferred to EI. I didn't mind too much losing the freebies of WX (seat selection, food and drinks etc) as I thought at least we'll get to use EI lounge in T2 for breakfast, but it looks like there isn't much point in even bothering with that! How could Aer Lingus put their brand on this sort of crap!

Some of the routine distances in amsterdam are 300m further some of the distances in JFK are 400m further, the walk in Orly from checkin to the regular Dublin gate is 150m further as well. If people weren’t complaining about walking they’d be complaining about having to use a bus. Honestly folks you can pick lots of airports Irish people regularly use around the world where walking distances are similar or even longer than Dublin.

On a technicality if you have only got carry on you can use the security lanes in T1 and save your poor legs a few mins walking. It is being advertised onboard apparently but website still says checkin in T2.

mikel97

MuffinsDa wrote: »

! How could Aer Lingus put their brand on this sort of crap!

It not that far and you can use T1 it right in middle. with the Lingus brand well saviour the flavour its all IAG now. Speaking as a non Irish person soon not much Irish influence left with company brand

Kev11491

MuffinsDa wrote: »

That's ridiculous! I'm flying with them early tomorrow morning actually, always used BA for work but this time was going with family and WX was a lot cheaper so I booked that, and then got transferred to EI. I didn't mind too much losing the freebies of WX (seat selection, food and drinks etc) as I thought at least we'll get to use EI lounge in T2 for breakfast, but it looks like there isn't much point in even bothering with that! How could Aer Lingus put their brand on this sort of crap!

The walk isn't that bad at all, 10-15 mins and you'll probably save time going through T2 security anyway. Like mentioned above, you may want to avoid Schipol or most major international airports if you don't like walking.

LXFlyer

Captain_Crash wrote: »

I'll admit, I don't have a habit of timing my walks in the airport, but I've never found any amount of walking in DUB to be that strenuous. At worst a minor inconvenience.

Personally speaking neither do I. But that’s not really the point here.

To be fair, an airline should be trying to make the service as attractive as possible to its customers.

For anyone who uses T2 this isn’t really delivering on that.

Stephen Strange

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Some of the routine distances in amsterdam are 300m further some of the distances in JFK are 400m further, the walk in Orly from checkin to the regular Dublin gate is 150m further as well. If people weren’t complaining about walking they’d be complaining about having to use a bus. Honestly folks you can pick lots of airports Irish people regularly use around the world where walking distances are similar or even longer than Dublin.

On a technicality if you have only got carry on you can use the security lanes in T1 and save your poor legs a few mins walking. It is being advertised onboard apparently but website still says checkin in T2.

On the first point, yes there are longer distances in other airports, but most make use of travelators. The walk from T2 security to 200s has one very short travelator and makes you walk through 2 retail areas and a narrow corridor in T1 at boots (and other shops). I know you can use T1 security (although I don't think you can use T1 fast track if you hqve got it from AerClub, etc). While that might not be the longest walk in the world, it's a slow frustrating one (I do it pretty much every day and can comfortably say that you cannot walk fast in T1 after security, as you will be stuck behind people).

Jamie2k9

I think the walk is pushing it slightly and its a route which should be high yielding. Its the winter schedule gate space isn’t an issue so Aer Lingus could deliver guests a better service if they wanted.

Can I assume handling hasn’t swtiched to Aer Lingus yet?

trellheim

It is possible to do T2 screening to T1 200 gates in < 5 min but you have to be very very fast and know the route inside out . Carrying any Baggage is not recommended and neither is a crowded terminal.


As mentioned above why not just bus like the stobarts ?

I'd riff off Jamie's point - its not a high-fare experience either bus or walk especially with the AOG problems inherent. BA a better walk a better aircraft and the same company gets your money !

kevinandrew

It’s worth remembering that this is still a Cityjet operation, the flights are ‘Aer Lingus operated by Cityjet’ so all the talk of better gates is in all likelihood down to CityJet to organise.

Just how eager they are to apply for new stands and move their operation is debatable. Not so long ago the Aer Lingus Regional operation was in T1 and eventually Stobart moved over to T2 so there’s still potential for that to happen with Cityjet in the future.

L1011

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Can I assume handling hasn’t swtiched to Aer Lingus yet?

Be interesting if cityjet drop their own spinoff handler

sparrowcar

L1011 wrote: »

Be interesting if cityjet drop their own spinoff handler

Why? Handler has no bearing on any of these decisions and will follow the aircraft to whatever stand is allocated or agreed between EI/WX and DAA.

sparrowcar

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

I think the walk is pushing it slightly and its a route which should be high yielding. Its the winter schedule gate space isn’t an issue so Aer Lingus could deliver guests a better service if they wanted.

Can I assume handling hasn’t swtiched to Aer Lingus yet?

Handling front of house and boarding is EI staff and 3rd party handling after that. Exactly the same as EI regional service which is in place a few years now.

Stephen Strange

sparrowcar wrote: »

Handling front of house and boarding is EI staff and 3rd party handling after that. Exactly the same as EI regional service which is in place a few years now.

I think I'm right in saying it's EI handling for EI flights, Swissport for EI Regional and Sky Handling for EI/WX flights. Sounds like a mess imo.

sparrowcar

Stephen Strange wrote: »

I think I'm right in saying it's EI handling for EI flights, Swissport for EI Regional and Sky Handling for EI/WX flights. Sounds like a mess imo.

No Sky Handling for both regional and WX.
Sky Handling and Swissport do the bus gate coaching.

Sub contracting and 3rd party handling is firmly embedded in these types of operations now. More flexibility for the airlines and less commitment than recruiting staff directly themselves.

Stephen Strange

sparrowcar wrote: »

No Sky Handling for both regional and WX.
Sky Handling and Swissport do the bus gate coaching.

Sub contracting and 3rd party handling is firmly embedded in these types of operations now. More flexibility for the airlines and less commitment than recruiting staff directly themselves.

Thanks for clarifying

billy few mates

Stephen Strange wrote: »

It's really not a 5 minute walk from T2 security to gate 202.

I'm a fast walker...:)
I tend to take a lot of flights that go from the 300s, I never to use the 200s...

L1011

sparrowcar wrote: »

Why? Handler has no bearing on any of these decisions and will follow the aircraft to whatever stand is allocated or agreed between EI/WX and DAA.

What I meant was that Sky Handling used to be a division of Cityjet (and named as such) and I doubt they ever expected the day they could drop them.

sparrowcar

L1011 wrote: »

What I meant was that Sky Handling used to be a division of Cityjet (and named as such) and I doubt they ever expected the day they could drop them.

Ah ok I understand.

The bond between Cityjet and SHP is very strong and always has been. Many Cityjet employees started in Sky Handling but at the end of the day business is business and 3rd party handlers would be the most in tune with that.

Jamie2k9

Wonder if it will be LAX or EWR exiting the fleet.

sandbelter

From Page 86L long haul fleet to increase by 13 from 17 to 30 in 2023
A321LR
2019 (3); 2020 (8); 2021 (12); 2022 (13); 2023 (14)
A330
A332:  2019 (5); 2020 (5); 2021 (5); 2022 (4); 2023 (4)
A333: 2019 (8); 2020 (8); 2021 (8); 2022 (8); 2023 (8)
A330 TBA: 2019 (0); 2020 (2); 2021 (2); 2022 (4); 2023 (4)
All up three incremental wide bodies and ten incremental narrow bodies.  Slide mentions A321 LR and potential XLR platform for narrow bodies.  Remaining 4 B757 to finish up in 2019. 
On page P85 EI sees and additional five transatlantic destinations (to 18) by 2023, with flights increasing to 196 in 2023 (from current 115).  40% increase in cities but 70% increase in flights suggests quite a bit of the growth could be increased frequencies to existing destinations.
P88 sees a fleet of 66 aircraft in 2023 (up 11) as the long haul fleet is increasing by 13 indicating the short hail fleet reduces by 2, BUT P86 states that major increase in capacity will come from increased block time suggesting that A321LR will be used to Europe to compensate for the reduction. 
No charts provided for short haul, but P167 indicated that IAG have a large pipeline of aircraft in the "to be determined" category", not nothing specific EI.

Idbatterim

https://www.independent.ie/business/irish/aer-lingus-plans-to-almost-double-its-transatlantic-fleet-to-30-aircraft-over-next-five-years-37486358.html

Locker10a

sandbelter wrote: »

No charts provided for short haul, but P167 indicated that IAG have a large pipeline of aircraft in the "to be determined" category", not nothing specific EI.

Considering the amount of 321LR they’ll have in the fleet, I’d imagine a lot of them would be used on Europe’s during the morning/afternoon and will prove as a replacement when older current 321s/320s are retired.

California Dreamer

I suppose in a media report you can pretty much say anything! Anybody remember the orders for the A350?

Ambitious fleet plans but seeing is believing!!!

LXFlyer

California Dreamer wrote: »

I suppose in a media report you can pretty much say anything! Anybody remember the orders for the A350?

Ambitious fleet plans but seeing is believing!!!

Well they have delivered on all the other plans since and more!

The A350 was pre-IAG.

sdanseo

LXFlyer wrote: »

Well they have delivered on all the other plans since and more!

The A350 was pre-IAG.

Plans are much more likely to come to fruition now that they are backed by IAG. Much bigger group with much bigger resources and as a result easier to deliver than when EI were on their own.

Investors and stock markets do not like broken promises or failed delivery of goals. It's in everyone's interest to deliver.

Interesting that 63% of the growth (see doc linked above) is to come from existing market base. Would take this to mean a higher focus on increased frequency on current routes than new routes (although 35% more new routes is also a huge gain, hopefully we will see DFW, LAS, YVR added with the A321LR freeing up those east coast 330s).

Tenger

California Dreamer wrote: »

I suppose in a media report you can pretty much say anything! Anybody remember the orders for the A350?

Ambitious fleet plans but seeing is believing!!!

And the A350 was an actuallity, they even been assigned a '1st frame' by Airbus.The IAG takeover meant that operational profits were for shareholders rather than investment in the company itself. Thus the move to lower capital acquisitions by expanding the A330 fleet rather than new build high semand A350s. (EI was always going to be an A321LR operator, as early as 2012 they were talking it up)

sherology

Great news. Flew on the newer a330s lately and they're were wonderfully comfortable, so don't see the need for larger a350s as yet. The a330 is optimal for EIs routes across the Atlantic.

Any chance the 4 newbies would move to the neo? (Assume they'll pick up ceos at IAG prices so answering my own Q with an 'unlikely-commonality').

Now... DAA... Get to work making T2 as capable airside (for handling movements) as it is on the public side.

Kermit.de.frog

What would Aer Lingus fleet expansion mean for Dublin as it's hub airport?

Will we see a lot of spin off growth do you reckon with other connecting airlines?

Seems ambitious.

Whether the DAA can deliver on infrastructure is another matter.

Locker10a

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

What would Aer Lingus fleet expansion mean for Dublin as it's hub airport?

Will we see a lot of spin off growth do you reckon with other connecting airlines?

Seems ambitious.

Whether the DAA can deliver on infrastructure is another matter.

I think infrastructure will really make or break this ambition, they need to get those new piers up ASAP and seriously work on taxiways and planning for taxi routes and stand allocation

WishUWereHere

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

What would Aer Lingus fleet expansion mean for Dublin as it's hub airport?

Will we see a lot of spin off growth do you reckon with other connecting airlines?

Seems ambitious.

Whether the DAA can deliver on infrastructure is another matter.

I landed in T2 last night around 21h30, and when we got to do passport control, the queue was back down the corridor. I'm all for Dublin becoming a major player but as You say above, based on what I experienced last night, the infrastructure simply cannot keep up, unless there are plans for major expansion with PP control?

As an aside ( we flew in on the AL Lisbon flight ) credit to the baggage handlers, our flights baggage was already on the conveyor belt when we got there.

Phen2206

WishUWereHere wrote: »

unless there are plans for major expansion with PP control?

Not that I'm aware of but they've only recently installed around 8-10 ePassport reader machines which are rarely if ever actually working; so in fact they've reduced the amount of desks in passport control for no benefit at all. There's obviously a major issue with the machines.

This reduction in the number of desks and probably lack of staff too all contributed to what you saw last night. Maybe someone here can shed more light.

MoeJay

Phen2206 wrote: »

Not that I'm aware of but they've only recently installed around 8-10 ePassport reader machines which are rarely if ever actually working; so in fact they've reduced the amount of desks in passport control for no benefit at all. There's obviously a major issue with the machines.

This reduction in the number of desks and probably lack of staff too all contributed to what you saw last night. Maybe someone here can shed more light.

There is a whole thread on it..

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057743153

Phen2206

Phen2206 wrote: »

Not that I'm aware of but they've only recently installed around 8-10 ePassport reader machines which are rarely if ever actually working; so in fact they've reduced the amount of desks in passport control for no benefit at all. There's obviously a major issue with the machines.

This reduction in the number of desks and probably lack of staff too all contributed to what you saw last night. Maybe someone here can shed more light.

Multiple airports I’ve been through that have this technology available there has been queues or you aren’t allowed use them, Amsterdam was slow with queues and CDG we weren’t allowed use them mid afternoon and had a long queue to see a human. The aim at Dublin should be to have no queues and have staff waiting, but bosses don’t seem to like have idle staff in Ireland anymore and prefer to have staff overworked instead.

I think as people become more used to them there will be shorter queues. The system I find even when used perfectly is still slow while it checks. Honestly they need to speed the system up so from scan in to booth till doors open the other side is 10 secs or something. It can be that alone to get the reader to scan your passport.

sandbelter

Locker10a wrote: »

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

What would Aer Lingus fleet expansion mean for Dublin as it's hub airport?

Will we see a lot of spin off growth do you reckon with other connecting airlines?

Seems ambitious.

Whether the DAA can deliver on infrastructure is another matter.

I think infrastructure will really make or break this ambition, they need to get those new piers up ASAP and seriously work on taxiways and planning for taxi routes and stand allocation

I agree infrastructure is the key, I suspect what we have been given is the base case growth scenario as it is silent on the following; 

• Update on status of AA JV;
• Oneworld; and,
• Growth via potential future franchise partners. 

In an interview SK himself identified eight cities for growth ( Vancouver, [font=Georgia, Arial, Verdana, sans-serif]Las Vegas, Dallas, Denver, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Detroit and Halifax) [/font][font=Georgia, Arial, Verdana, sans-serif] yet the slide only have five, but he made it abundantly clear in the below interview it was contingent on growth. [/font]
[font=Georgia, Arial, Verdana, sans-serif]Source: [/font][font=Georgia, Arial, Verdana, sans-serif]https://www.thejournal.ie/aer-lingus-new-canada-flights-2-4234167-Sep2018/[/font]

NH2013

https://m.independent.ie/business/irish/aer-lingus-in-pilot-standoff-as-captains-refuse-5000-extra-to-fly-on-their-day-off-37489498.html

Aer Lingus Pilots refusing offers of over €5,000 to work days off.

Not quite fleet related but begs the question if it will impact on Aer Lingus’ ability to crew these expansion plans if the long haul fleet is to more than double over the next 5 years, if current pilots are refusing offers of over €5,000 to work days off.

€5,000 is a lot of money to turn your nose up to surely even for pilots who are very well paid, from what I’ve heard morale and relations between pilots and management are at all time lows, this would seem to back up those claims and explain the hireins and cancellations experienced recently on the Atlantic side of the Airline.

Jack1985

NH2013 wrote: »

https://m.independent.ie/business/irish/aer-lingus-in-pilot-standoff-as-captains-refuse-5000-extra-to-fly-on-their-day-off-37489498.html

Aer Lingus Pilots refusing offers of over €5,000 to work days off.

Not quite fleet related but begs the question if it will impact on Aer Lingus’ ability to crew these expansion plans if the long haul fleet is to more than double over the next 5 years, if current pilots are refusing offers of over €5,000 to work days off.

€5,000 is a lot of money to turn your nose up to surely even for pilots who are very well paid, from what I’ve heard morale and relations between pilots and management are at all time lows, this would seem to back up those claims and explain the hireins and cancellations experienced recently on the Atlantic side of the Airline.

It sends a strong message. They are not happy with the chopping and changing of rosters and the effects of working a FTL max Summer. Burnout is affecting crews but EI will tell you they have the correct resources... :rolleyes:

Management relations with frontline staff (Pilots, Cabin Crew, Ground, Line Maintenance list is endless..) is strained with penny pinching and added stresses over the course of the last 3-5 years.

NH2013

Jack1985 wrote: »

It sends a strong message. They are not happy with the chopping and changing of rosters and the effects of working a FTL max Summer. Burnout is affecting crews but EI will tell you they have the correct resources... :rolleyes:

Management relations with frontline staff (Pilots, Cabin Crew, Ground, Line Maintenance list is endless..) is strained with penny pinching and added stresses over the course of the last 3-5 years.

The message is certainly very strong, I’m struggling to wrap my head around the fact that they must have offered multiple pilots on their days off these €5,000 offers to try and crew these flights and they all refused.

I understand and appreciate that time at home with your family can be very important especially for long haul pilots away from home for so many nights a month, but for that many pilots to turn their nose up at €5,000 just for coming in on a day off says an awful lot.

Recalling back to the Ryanair crew issues last year, I think they’re offer was along the lines of €20,000 for working 5 days off, just as a comparison.

A319er

Mmm well I never ever want to be on any aircraft where any pilot or cabin crew
Is working their days off. EI are huge,y profitable increase the promotional pipeline and cadet intake in line with fleet expansion.

It’s not €5000 it is less than €2500 when taxes are paid. Yes it’s still a lot of money to turn down if true.

Jack1985

Deleted User wrote: »

It’s not €5000 it is less than €2500 when taxes are paid. Yes it’s still a lot of money to turn down if true.

I had heard the figure 3,500 being banded about.

Mebuntu

"A spokeswoman for Aer Lingus said that hire-in aircraft were used on just four sectors out of 70,000 flown so far this year"

Being a little economical with the truth there!

billy few mates

The newspaper article suggests they're turning down €5K to give up one day off.
These are Trans Atlantic trips so factor in the night before the trip they won't be going out, two or three days away, a day off to recover afterwards and it's not that attractive. If that €5K is before tax it's even less attractive...