Aer Lingus Fleet/Routes Discussion

Locker10a

billy few mates wrote: »

The newspaper article suggests they're turning down €5K to give up one day off.
These are Trans Atlantic trips so factor in the night before the trip they won't be going out, two or three days away, a day off to recover afterwards and it's not that attractive. If that €5K is before tax it's even less attractive...

It is before tax

rivegauche

That news story looks poor for the Union and will limit their ability to garner support of the Public if the situation escalates.

Constructive suggestion:
If they are not too close to 900 hours then maybe they should do like the hospital Consultants and rack up a year or two extra carried over holidays at the end of their career to cover the shortfall. It beats paying over 50% tax and it allows the pilots to either retire early or find another employer on top of retirement for their last few productive years.
edit: 5000 euro is 5000 euro directly in to a pension fund if pension allowances are not maxed out. Maybe somebody isn't selling the idea of overtime to the pilots well enough be it HR or Unions and at 50 a portion can be drawn down. At least Ryanair would hint to their employees of possible tax manoevers which are to the Employees' advantage.

billy few mates

rivegauche wrote: »

That news story looks poor for the Union and will limit their ability to garner support of the Public if the situation escalates.

Where does it say anything about the union...?
This seems to be a case of individual pilots turning down a request to work overtime, this sort of thing happens in every walk of life.
There's nothing in that article to suggest it's any sort of an industrial action or union directive and nothing to suggest theres anything to prevent individual pilots taking up the offer if they so wish.
You seem to have a fixation with unions...;)

NH2013

From what I understand it’s not the union behind this, rather the individual pilots themselves not being tempted by the money.

And as the article states I don’t think it’s an issue of hours, Aer Lingus 330 pilots as a rule generally don’t reach the 900 hour limit due to the duration of their sectors being shorter than day BA, KLM or Lufthansa due to Ireland’s proximity to the USA. From what I gather it’s more of a morale and burnout issue following from a long summer, with little let up that means no body is interested in working on days off or giving up free time to give their managers a dig out for messing up the numbers required.

Understandable not wanting to be away from home, especially those with young families, but still difficult to wrap my head around refusals to do so for that amount of money being offered, despite as mentioned the penal amount of tax on it.

rivegauche

Where do you think it will end up?
This is a holding company with multiple brands in their stable and they are at the moment being good as gold and leaving Ireland to the green tailed shamrocks.
They won't continue to pay exceptional leases in low season. The Union should be guarding their home turf and twisting arms to get these flights flow.
The Union has a relatively good relationship with their Company and that is worth preserving.

Locker10a

rivegauche wrote: »

That news story looks poor for the Union and will limit their ability to garner support of the Public if the situation escalates.

Constructive suggestion:
If they are not too close to 900 hours then maybe they should do like the hospital Consultants and rack up a year or two extra carried over holidays at the end of their career to cover the shortfall. It beats paying over 50% tax and it allows the pilots to either retire early or find another employer on top of retirement for their last few productive years.

I’m speculating here and it’s based on my observations of working in airlines, but it appears EI have probably calculated that’s it’s cheaper to be 1 or 2 pilots short for the scheduled every week or two and offer overtime than actually employ extra pilots. Pilots would be very expensive employees on paper and then theres the cost of their tranining etc
Someone somewhere calculated this as being cheaper for EI but now the pilots are probably sick of constantly being asked to work their days off.

Again from personal observation, captains who’ve been years and years in the job aren’t cash motivated, they earn a very very good salary and have already spent years of their career working around an airline schedule, so it’s absolutely no surprise to me that they aren’t taking up this offer. If your a long haul captain you’re probably looking to work as little as possible, simply because you’re likely to be at a stage where mortgages are paid off, bills are nothing to worry about you want to enjoy life and work less.
So this approach is unlikely to work out for EI

rivegauche

If a Consultant can be incentivised to do extra hours then a Pilot can be incentivised if you know what carrots to dangle. Pilots would be paupers in comparison to Hospital Consultants. A tax free payment at 50 and/or early retirement allowing the pilots to retire early to southern Europe and keeping his/her hand in the game in his/her early to mid fifties is an incentive.

kona

The issue with the pilots is the exact same in every other section of the company. Staff are getting rode solid and just getting grief in return. Couple that with the amount of tax the government are taking to piss away into the wind, theres an awful lot of worn out and fed up staff.

rivegauche

kona wrote: »

The issue with the pilots is the exact same in every other section of the company. Staff are getting rode solid and just getting grief in return. Couple that with the amount of tax the government are taking to piss away into the wind, theres an awful lot of worn out and fed up staff.

are these pilots maximising their pension contributions?
if they are being abused are they not trying to get to retirement day a year or two earlier.

NH2013

rivegauche wrote: »

Where do you think it will end up?
This is a holding company with multiple brands in their stable and they are at the moment being good as gold and leaving Ireland to the green tailed shamrocks.
They won't continue to pay exceptional leases in low season. The Union should be guarding their home turf and twisting arms to get these flights flow.
The Union has a relatively good relationship with their Company and that is worth preserving.

Based on the IAG capital markets presentation from the other day it would appear that Aer Lingus is the star performer amongst the IAG group with the highest operating margin of 17.8% and highest RoIC of 27.9%, based on that I don't think IAG would attempt to disrupt Aer Lingus' DUBHUB strategy and would instead result in two outcomes;

a) You know what you're doing and your stratagey on undercrewing should have worked, it didn't this year but keep up the good work.

or

b) Hire enough more crew next summer to cover the flights you plan to operate.

Given that this has happened a number of times over the last few years I'd hazard a bet that IAG is within camp (a) and are happy that the cost of these hire-in aircraft is worth the reduced cost in pilot numbers overall, even if perhaps it didn't work this year like they might have hoped.

NH2013

rivegauche wrote: »

are these pilots maximising their pension contributions?
if they are being abused are they not trying to get to retirement day a year or two earlier.

To answer your question, yes I believe all Aer Lingus pilots max their pensions to the maximum allowable tax free amount.

rivegauche

proposed option c) make option "a" more attractive/attainable through non-monetary inducements.

rivegauche

NH2013 wrote: »

To answer your question, yes I believe all Aer Lingus pilots max their pensions out to the pension cap standard fund threshold of €2m prior to retirement.

Do it in 18 years instead of 20.

NH2013

rivegauche wrote: »

proposed option c) make option "a" more attractive/attainable through non-monetary inducements.

What would count as a non-monetary inducement though? They can't offer them more time off as it seems that is the issue they're having the problem with.

Perhaps some morale boosting inducements, but they take time to have an effect and wouldn't kick in overnight. Morale is something that needs to be built over time and notice taken when it starts to slip, once it's gone it take a lot more work to get it back than it takes to maintain it all along.

I mean these are pilots that got an 11% pay rise earlier this year with back pay (https://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/aer-lingus-pilots-back-pay-11-pay-increase-1.3395269 )and they're still feeling undervalued and overworked, says a lot about the atmosphere and culture in the place if everyone's as burnt out and disinterested as it's being made out on here. Clearly money is not the issue the pilots have if they're turning their nose up for €5,000 to work a day off, so what are the "non-monetary inducements" that you'd suggest?

trellheim

It was interesting to read that capital markets presentation end to end - many things were mentioned but people strategies did not figure at all except a tiny part in the BA section which probably tells you all you need to.

rivegauche

Largest inducement is early retirement by hook or by crook. All my more senior Colleagues want it and it is attractive the employer when done in a controlled fashion as they get more expensive staff off the roster.
My senior Colleagues aren't even looking to continue their careers.
A former Aer Lingus pilot ticking every box like type rating on multiple airframes, line training, ETOPS experience with a few good years left in him or her can get a contract somewhere desirable and at terms that meet their desired level of idleness e.g. 75 or 80%
"Hey Honey, I've been offered a position in <insert Country name with pleasant climate and good quality of life>. We can buy a place as a holiday home and keep the place here in Howth". Will not be greeted by the response "No, it's too hot".

rivegauche

Willie Walsh will not be around forever. He will be replaced by someone with less experience of Dublin who will try to sweat the assets and will not be able to justify to themselves leasing in planes when they have planes sitting idle. That is when the Unions will start striking. Find solutions, don't complain about problems.

billy few mates

Anyone who's ever worked long haul or extended spells away from home will understand how precious the home time is and how you have to try and cram so much of the ordinary things other people take for granted into the days when you're at home. Everything has to be planned and arranged around the roster and sometimes other things are more important than money. Some people are trying to spin this into some sort of a coordinated union action against the company when it's more likely individuals wanting to spend more time with their families at the end of a long season or not wanting to change their personal plans at short notice to end up giving half of it to the taxman.
We could all do with more money but there has to be a work life balance and it's hard enough to achieve that at times.

sdanseo

Are there plans to start replacement of the short haul fleet? A few A320 are starting to go grey at the edges now as well.

smurfjed

A hospital consultant can wake up in his own bed every night, attend most family gatherings and special events, and not feel totally drained after work. There comes a point in your life when your values change and quality of life becomes more important than money.
By the sounds of it, EI arent just one or two pilots down, plus I understand that quite a number of foreign pilots headed home as soon as local jobs became available so that also had an impact on crew levels.

Bussywussy

The penny pitching is going way too far, other front line departments understaffed with uncompetitive terms to industry standards , this will only last so long until enough is enough, this new CEO will probably come in, dump ground handling, install Menzies and sail back to BA

basill

His background is network planning and route analysis. In other words Kavanagh mk 2. Expect a continuation of the beatings until crunch point.

adam88

NH2013 wrote: »

The message is certainly very strong, I’m struggling to wrap my head around the fact that they must have offered multiple pilots on their days off these €5,000 offers to try and crew these flights and they all refused.

I understand and appreciate that time at home with your family can be very important especially for long haul pilots away from home for so many nights a month, but for that many pilots to turn their nose up at €5,000 just for coming in on a day off says an awful lot.

Recalling back to the Ryanair crew issues last year, I think they’re offer was along the lines of €20,000 for working 5 days off, just as a comparison.

Is it 5k for one flight back and forth. Bloody hell thats good money

Jamie2k9

Bussywussy wrote: »

The penny pitching is going way too far, other front line departments understaffed with uncompetitive terms to industry standards , this will only last so long until enough is enough, this new CEO will probably come in, dump ground handling, install Menzies and sail back to BA

Article a few weeks ago saying EI turnarounds per aircraft is 50% higher than competitors so chances are it will happen.

susan1992

Is Aer Lingus getting a business class product on their short haul called Aer Space next year? Just read the introduction of "Aer Space" on the capital market slide. Will this be something like Club Europe British Airways with a curtain and middle seat free with meal and drinks included? Hopefully it sells well. I doubt it though that it will be in all aircrafts/routes.

goingnowhere

Full business class seat on select UK/EU services when the A321 NEO LR arrives

Jack1985

goingnowhere wrote: »

Full business class seat on select UK/EU services when the A321 NEO LR arrives

Precisely, utilizing the Business Class product on first wave departures. Initial starter routes before FY19 end expected to be Amsterdam, London-Heathrow and Paris-CDG.

Tenger

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Article a few weeks ago saying EI turnarounds per aircraft is 50% higher than competitors so chances are it will happen.

I’m wondering about that figure. I flew to London last week, pretty much 90% of the EI staff I saw looked like school leavers or early 20s. (That could be my advancing age however) And having looked at the summer recruitment offers (for my kid) I assume they are on those 20 hour contracts.

Kcormahs

goingnowhere wrote: »

Full business class seat on select UK/EU services when the A321 NEO LR arrives

But also on the a320s by introducing aer space, no?

Jack1985

Tenger wrote: »

I’m wondering about that figure. I flew to London last week, pretty much 90% of the EI staff I saw looked like school leavers or early 20s. (That could be my advancing age however) And having looked at the summer recruitment offers (for my kid) I assume they are on those 20 hour contracts.

Quite a few AOG incidents with the 330 fleet too due to airbridge contact with inexperienced staff, previously you were required to have a minimum experience level before being airbridge trained thats gone now, and 20hr contract is correct.

A pinch of salt is required when reading quotes from EI management, selective information is always provided and never the full and real picture.

Kcormahs wrote: »

But also on the a320s by introducing aer space, no?

Eventually. A lot more detail to be provided however.

Kcormahs

Eventually. A lot more detail to be provided however.[/quote]

Hopefully before 2019

Ireland trains

The aer lingus short haul seats are very comfortable but some of the newer planes from vueling dont have aer lingus seats and are not that comfortable. Will EI leave the vueling seats in the plane or fit their own seats.

Jamie2k9

Tenger wrote: »

I’m wondering about that figure. I flew to London last week, pretty much 90% of the EI staff I saw looked like school leavers or early 20s. (That could be my advancing age however) And having looked at the summer recruitment offers (for my kid) I assume they are on those 20 hour contracts.

Yeah not sure how much truth is in it however if its true its hard for them to justify such a cost from a commercial prospective. They say over 12 million per year. They want a "one team" approach whatever that means and if it doesn't happen they will likely outsource going by the article.

https://www.independent.ie/business/irish/aer-lingus-withdraws-threat-over-union-representatives-37441672.html

Bussywussy

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Tenger wrote: »

I’m wondering about that figure. I flew to London last week, pretty much 90% of the EI staff I saw looked like school leavers or early 20s. (That could be my advancing age however) And having looked at the summer recruitment offers (for my kid) I assume they are on those 20 hour contracts.

Yeah not sure how much truth is in it however if its true its hard for them to justify such a cost from a commercial prospective. They say over 12 million per year. They want a "one team" approach whatever that means and if it doesn't happen they will likely outsource going by the article.

https://www.independent.ie/business/irish/aer-lingus-withdraws-threat-over-union-representatives-37441672.html

Sure outsource it and it'll probably cost the 12 million in damage to aircraft from 3rd parties that don't give a crap.

Qprmeath

Tenger wrote: »

I’m wondering about that figure. I flew to London last week, pretty much 90% of the EI staff I saw looked like school leavers or early 20s. (That could be my advancing age however) And having looked at the summer recruitment offers (for my kid) I assume they are on those 20 hour contracts.

All recently arrived loading section employees are 30 hour contracts now as they couldn’t attract staff with 20 hour contracts.

joeysoap

How would a 20 hour contract work in relation to the 900 flying hours?

trellheim

All recently arrived loading section employees are 30 hour contracts now as they couldn’t attract staff with 20 hour contracts.

why are they such low hours ? How are you supposed to attract motivated staff for those kind of rewards ?

Bussywussy

trellheim wrote: »

All recently arrived loading section employees are 30 hour contracts now as they couldn’t attract staff with 20 hour contracts.

why are they such low hours ? How are you supposed to attract motivated staff for those kind of rewards ?

It's a bid to keep it understaffed...decimate it and outsource to the lowest bidder

kona

trellheim wrote: »

why are they such low hours ? How are you supposed to attract motivated staff for those kind of rewards ?

Its quite attractive if you have a bit on the side and want to keep the tax man happy.

Locker10a

joeysoap wrote: »

How would a 20 hour contract work in relation to the 900 flying hours?

The 900 hours is only a rule for pilots and cabin crew, nothing to do with ground staff

Tenger

joeysoap wrote: »

How would a 20 hour contract work in relation to the 900 flying hours?

I think this is for entry level airport positions. I had been looking at it for my college age son a few months back. But it wasnt worth signing up to such a disjointed work setup. Only guaranteed 20 hours and still having to be fully flexible. If it was 20 hours over particular 2/3 days of the week then at least he could have tried to get something for the other couple of days. He was interested because he knows of my good memories of my time in EI and friends who are still there.
Instead he was happy with getting 4 days a week in a local hotel.

ohigg84

Just slightly off topic, but this thread does relate to Aer Lingus fleet discussion.

What has happened to A330-202 EI-EWR?

LXFlyer

It hasn’t flown since the end of the summer schedule.

Remember that the winter schedule requires less aircraft.

goingnowhere

EI-EWR is in for maintenance

Presumably it will then replace EI-GEY on the IAD run, which in turn will get its interior brought up to spec

ohigg84

LXFlyer wrote: »

It hasn’t flown since the end of the summer schedule.

Remember that the winter schedule requires less aircraft.

That is true, but it seems that all other A330's are operating


LAX, DAA, GEY, DUO, DUZ, EAV, EDY, ELA, FNG, FNH, GAJ and GCF


However, I do recognise that each of these aircraft will be maintained over the winter season.


Will EWR go to Bordeaux for maintenance too?

LXFlyer

ohigg84 wrote: »

That is true, but it seems that all other A330's are operating


LAX, DAA, GEY, DUO, DUZ, EAV, EDY, ELA, FNG, FNH, GAJ and GCF


However, I do recognise that each of these aircraft will be maintained over the winter season.


Will EWR go to Bordeaux for maintenance too?

They’ll all be scheduled for maintenance in rotation during the winter.

The daily A330 requirement will decrease during the winter valley period when schedules scale back.

goingnowhere

EWR is in Dublin

Jack1985

Actually getting it's landing gear replaced at the moment !

Tenger

LXFlyer wrote: »

They’ll all be scheduled for maintenance in rotation during the winter.

The daily A330 requirement will decrease during the winter valley period when schedules scale back.

I had a look at the EI winter schedule on their website 2 weeks ago. Seems like it is pretty full up to the New Year. Schedule seems to be cut back from early January up to mid March.

LXFlyer

Tenger wrote: »

I had a look at the EI winter schedule on their website 2 weeks ago. Seems like it is pretty full up to the New Year. Schedule seems to be cut back from early January up to mid March.

Well that’s what I meant by the winter valley period (early Jan to early March). Probably should have been clearer!