Aer Lingus Fleet/Routes Discussion

Jack1985

Locker10a wrote: »

Are you not allowed 3 types anyway!?

Previously no, IAA stated that when operating mixed fleets in ROI (Airbus and Boeing) Cabin Crew could only operate one of each type, EI then applied for that to be A320 and B757 for maximum utilisation of associated crew - When the A319 was present and one was based at SNN the stipulation was that SNN crew could only fly A319 & B757.

If you fly Airbus only - ROI Cabin Crew can fly all A320 family and A330-200/300 series aircraft. During the retirement phase of the B757 in order to ensure operational flexibility the IAA allowed EI to add the A321neoLR to Cabin Crew's licences for a period of 9 months effective 01/08/19.

The decision for an EI crew base at SNN lies with EI and I don't see it happening anytime soon nor does anyone in EI expect it.

basill

They will never have a SNN flight crew base. Operational flexibility......The airline is Dublin centric - has been and always will be.

sandbelter

kevinandrew wrote: »

Absolutely nothing. It was fairly light on detail for all the airlines outside of their financials but Aer Lingus in particular had little to no mention.

At least BA got a slide to itself on the roll out of its new club seat...

Very little.

No sign of an EI A330 replacement (on P125), so it looks as if they still be flying circa 2030. But it appears the last BA B772's will be gone at the end of the next decade.
Fleet from 56 to 60 by 2022.

EI321

With EI already taking some of the last few A330-300s on order from Airbus, surely its only a matter of time before they have to seriously consider the A330neo.

alancostello

EI321 wrote: »

With EI already taking some of the last few A330-300s on order from Airbus, surely its only a matter of time before they have to seriously consider the A330neo.

I wouldn’t be surprised to see IB taking more A350s (potentially including the remainder of EI’s original order) and EI taking over some of IB’s A330s. With the Air Europa purchase and their Boeing fleet LEVEL’s A330s may even be contenders for EI.

A330neo for EI is likely a good few years away.

Tenger

alancostello wrote: »

I wouldn’t be surprised to see IB taking more A350s (potentially including the remainder of EI’s original order) and EI taking over some of IB’s A330s. With the Air Europa purchase and their Boeing fleet LEVEL’s A330s may even be contenders for EI.

A330neo for EI is likely a good few years away.

Iberia have taken all 9 of the EI A350 orders. Saw an article 18 months ago stating that Iberia will get WiFi on all 24 A350s. "Officially" (Wikipedia and public releases) they had previously ordered 15 A350s.

It's a no brainer that EI are examining the A330neo. No way Airbus allowed them to order 2 of the last ceo's without a conversation about switching to neo. I'm pretty confident we will see an A330neo in service within 4 years. (Those - 200s need replacement)

Time Magazine

En route home on a new 320neo IAD-DUB tomorrow :pac:

OU812

Discussions with Stewart apparently

kevinandrew

No doubt they’d be more successful than Norwegian but would Aer Lingus seriously consider assigning an aircraft for such a low yielding route in a region they already serve remarkably well via JFK, EWR, BDL and to a lesser extent BOS and even PHL?!

I’m sure Stewart would throw plenty of cash their way and they’d make a tidy profit but still, it wouldn’t be on my wish list of routes if I had one.

JCX BXC

kevinandrew wrote: »

No doubt they’d be more successful than Norwegian but would Aer Lingus seriously consider assigning an aircraft for such a low yielding route in a region they already serve remarkably well via JFK, EWR, BDL and to a lesser extent BOS and even PHL?!

I’m sure Stewart would throw plenty of cash their way and they’d make a tidy profit but still, it wouldn’t be on my wish list of routes if I had one.

Perhaps one of the added A321's?

kevinandrew

JCX BXC wrote: »

Perhaps one of the added A321's?

Pretty much a given if it were to ever happen, very unlikely to be A330 material.

Wouldn't be my preferred choice to put a brand new asset like the A321LR but if there's money to be made and a nice marketing (bribe) package added, they'll likely go for it.

Van.Bosch

kevinandrew wrote: »

Pretty much a given if it were to ever happen, very unlikely to be A330 material.

Wouldn't be my preferred choice to put a brand new asset like the A321LR but if there's money to be made and a nice marketing (bribe) package added, they'll likely go for it.

But back to your original point, what is the opportunity cost of that aircraft, could it make more of it was sent to Cleveland or by doing an extra JFK rotation.

kevinandrew

Van.Bosch wrote: »

But back to your original point, what is the opportunity cost of that aircraft, could it make more of it was sent to Cleveland or by doing an extra JFK rotation.

I think it depends on what Stewart offers, a marketing package or profit guarantee like what Bradley offered could sway it but on its own it would have a tough time against another JFK frequency or even CLE, PIT etc if they were up for consideration.

OU812

kevinandrew wrote: »

No doubt they’d be more successful than Norwegian but would Aer Lingus seriously consider assigning an aircraft for such a low yielding route in a region they already serve remarkably well via JFK, EWR, BDL and to a lesser extent BOS and even PHL?!

I’m sure Stewart would throw plenty of cash their way and they’d make a tidy profit but still, it wouldn’t be on my wish list of routes if I had one.

World's largest Legoland is going to be within 30 minutes of there, due to open in 2020 & I'm sure there'd be other incentives to get them there.

Jack1985

Anywhere Aer Lingus can generate profit they’ll fly there is the simple answer.

Graham

I think that's an over simplification.

You have 1 plane, 2 potential destinations. Destination A should make €1000 profit, Destination B should make €100,000 profit. Which one do you think they will pick?

Tenger

EI321 wrote: »

With EI already taking some of the last few A330-300s on order from Airbus, surely its only a matter of time before they have to seriously consider the A330neo.

Had a look over the IAG capital markets presentation
https://www.iairgroup.com/~/media/Files/I/IAG/documents/CMD%202019%20Final_PRINT.pdf

Slide 124 shows IAG fleet orders. No more A330s due after 2020. Not sure if the indicated deliveres are for Level or if they refer to the 2 imminent EI deliveries. Looks like A321X/LR, B777x, A350 and B787 are the main deliveries 2021-2024. After 2024 the slide just shows "requirement" rather than actual aircraft types.

kevinandrew wrote: »

No doubt they’d be more successful than Norwegian but would Aer Lingus seriously consider assigning an aircraft for such a low yielding route in a region they already serve remarkably well via JFK, EWR, BDL and to a lesser extent BOS and even PHL?! .......

An aspect could be that Stewart serves the hinterland of NYC, which then frees up capacity on the EWR/JFK routes for further connection traffic?

Nibs05

I see still no short haul aircraft for Aer Lingus

Locker10a

Nibs05 wrote: »

I see still no short haul aircraft for Aer Lingus

I have no source for this as it’s totally rumors that I heard from someone working in the industry in Ireland (I’ll say no more) but they told me they’d heard about a new arm of EI being mooted, Aer Lingus Express (copy and paste from Iberia express) and future short haul expansion will come in this form, take it with a pinch of salt but it wouldn’t be the aviation industry without such rumors!!

Tenger

Slide 125 indicates the IAG shorthaul fleet plans.
92 deliveries over 2020-22, approx 75% of these are A320neo family.
217 (types to be decided) for delivery from 2023-29. The phrase "early replacement of A319/320ceo" is used here.

ohigg84

Tenger wrote: »

Had a look over the IAG capital markets presentation
https://www.iairgroup.com/~/media/Files/I/IAG/documents/CMD%202019%20Final_PRINT.pdf

Slide 124 shows IAG fleet orders. No more A330s due after 2020. Not sure if the indicated deliveres are for Level or if they refer to the 2 imminent EI deliveries. Looks like A321X/LR, B777x, A350 and B787 are the main deliveries 2021-2024. After 2024 the slide just shows "requirement" rather than actual aircraft types.


An aspect could be that Stewart serves the hinterland of NYC, which then frees up capacity on the EWR/JFK routes for further connection traffic?

Interesting, but what about secondhand aircraft?


Wasn't there a rumour EI were meant to be acquiring some ex Jet Airways A330s (reputedly A333s).


Also KLM have only recently announced that they are retiring their fleet of A332/A333s, as they are focusing on acquiring more 787s.


Isn't there a possibility that some of those KLM A330s could fit into the EI fleet.

alancostello

ohigg84 wrote: »

Interesting, but what about secondhand aircraft?


Wasn't there a rumour EI were meant to be acquiring some ex Jet Airways A330s (reputedly A333s).


Also KLM have only recently announced that they are retiring their fleet of A332/A333s, as they are focusing on acquiring more 787s.


Isn't there a possibility that some of those KLM A330s could fit into the EI fleet.

I discussed secondhand aircraft not one page of posts ago, feel free to read that comment.

The Jet Airways aircraft weren't in the right condition as was discussed at the time in this thread.

KLM's fleet transition is occurring up to 2025, they are the right engine type for EI however the early aircraft will be too old by then to be worthwhile, and the newer aircraft may be investigated at that time (and only at that time).

Unless they were being retired in the next 12-18 months there are no eyes on them and they're not going to be on anybody's radar for a long time, realistically they're likely to just be taken over by AF.

EIN123

Jack1985 wrote: »

Factual background;

EI Cabin Crew bases - DUB, ORK, SNN and BHD.
EI Flight Deck bases - DUB and ORK.

Belfast City
Crewed using based Cabin Crew (Supplemented by DUB CC via London overnights ex/to-DUB).

Flight Deck operate BHD flights via London overnights ex/to-DUB. There is some ad-hoc positioning by road duties for DUB CC and FD.

Shannon
All flights crewed by based Cabin Crew (Supplemented where required by DUB/ORK* CC via positioning by road duties).

Flight Deck, DUB crew currently operating SNN flights via London overnights ex/to-DUB (including NEO) supplemented by Cork FD (including NEO ops) with overnighting in SNN. There is also some ad-hoc positioning by road.

*Currently to cover A320 services only.

Can ORK based pilots bid to fly from SNN? For example if they wanted to fly to JFK next month could they bid for that and do 2 days flying short haul from Cork and then the remaining 3 would be their SNN-JFK-SNN flights? It wouldn’t have been possible before with the different aircraft types!

Jack1985

Graham wrote: »

I think that's an over simplification.

You have 1 plane, 2 potential destinations. Destination A should make €1000 profit, Destination B should make €100,000 profit. Which one do you think they will pick?

I’m not sure how the statement is an over simplification, I can’t remember highlighting two differential profit scenarios with your two vastly different examples.

Anywhere profit is generated the airline will fly. The previous German CEO batted the phrase regularly.

EIN123 wrote: »

Can ORK based pilots bid to fly from SNN? For example if they wanted to fly to JFK next month could they bid for that and do 2 days flying short haul from Cork and then the remaining 3 would be their SNN-JFK-SNN flights? It wouldn’t have been possible before with the different aircraft types!

I couldn’t tell you categorically, but most airlines use a bidding system and if you are qualified on an aircraft with an available trip for your local base within your pattern I can’t see how it wouldn’t be possible.

Tenger

In/On the Indo today:

https://www.independent.ie/life/travel/travel-news/aer-lingus-adds-two-new-italy-flights-and-record-number-of-transatlantic-seats-38688169.html?fbclid=IwAR00vSN-8ZAq0BHdDdzfFOfwzqDo5CgpgPKadrdoUBl6J2GF2lCO7XfRwkY


Aer Lingus has announced new direct flights from Dublin to Puglia and Sardinia for its Summer 2020 schedule........The announcements were made at the launch of Aer Lingus's 2020 summer programme - a schedule it says will see its "greatest-ever" capacity to North America.

1.9 million seats will be on sale to transatlantic destinations next summer, it says, with the Orlando, Florida service moving from four to six flights per week.

Miami will grow from two to three flights per week, while Dublin to Seattle is set to shift to a daily service from five flights weekly.

Fleet upgrades will also boost capacity on routes like Los Angeles, Washington D.C. and Minneapolis St. Paul, which will be serviced by a larger Airbus A330

By next summer, Aer Lingus also expects to have replaced its Boeing 757 fleet with four new Airbus A321 neo LR aircraft - offering 20pc better fuel efficiency.
..........
Changes from Cork Airport include switching its new Dubrovnik service from two to three flights per week next summer

ongarboy

No mention of the delayed launch of Montreal for 2020 in that article. Does that mean it has been shelved altogether or deferred further?

Jamie2k9

ongarboy wrote: »

No mention of the delayed launch of Montreal for 2020 in that article. Does that mean it has been shelved altogether or deferred further?

Those plans cancelled for 2020.

kevinandrew

Nice to see new European routes but is this growth or have a previous two been given the chop to facilitate these additions?

Despite nothing new across the atlantic, that capacity increase is still impressive growth, particularly for the west coast. Montreal being canned is disappointing, the Airbus delays meant they missed the boat entirely with Air Canada taking full advantage. Aer Lingus can’t really afford to miss route opportunities like that again so let’s hope Airbus gets its act together next year.

Locker10a

kevinandrew wrote: »

Nice to see new European routes but is this growth or have a previous two been given the chop to facilitate these additions?
.

Could it possibly be space in the schedule due to the 321LRs doing some morning Euro rotations?

Tenger

Locker10a wrote: »

Could it possibly be space in the schedule due to the 321LRs doing some morning Euro rotations?

Seems plausible. If they have 4 A321LR landing in early these could operate 2-3 Euro rotations, thus freeing up space in the A320 schedule.

Van.Bosch

Tenger wrote: »

Seems plausible. If they have 4 A321LR landing in early these could operate 2-3 Euro rotations, thus freeing up space in the A320 schedule.

Flight times to Alghero are 1250 and back at 1930 which is a long enough sector so not sure the TA A321’s could cover those.

Locker10a

Van.Bosch wrote: »

Flight times to Alghero are 1250 and back at 1930 which is a long enough sector so not sure the TA A321’s could cover those.

No not directly, but they can cover earlier sectors on other routes that could then mean the 320ceo schedules could be rejigged

Van.Bosch

Locker10a wrote: »

No not directly, but they can cover earlier sectors on other routes that could then mean the 320ceo schedules could be rejigged

True but the 3 hour flight time each way might be a push unless there was a bit of slack in the existing fleet. I guess you can always re jig to make it work.

Someone mentioned EI express above, would this replace EI regional?

IE 222

Does that schedule mean they need to keep all A330s or is there some slack to offload one of the 200s.

OU812

Looks like the 5 year plan for the US has stalled also. Expanding capability is great, but new destinations are needed.

kevinandrew

OU812 wrote: »

Looks like the 5 year plan for the US has stalled also. Expanding capability is great, but new destinations are needed.

The five year plan is based on available seats, not number of routes.

alancostello

kevinandrew wrote: »

The five year plan is based on available seats, not number of routes.

I can only assume given the similar style of username that this is the same person as klm617 on airliners.net who went on a much longer rant of the same notion on the Irish aviation thread. Just absurd stuff.

kevinandrew

Van.Bosch wrote: »

True but the 3 hour flight time each way might be a push unless there was a bit of slack in the existing fleet. I guess you can always re jig to make it work.

Someone mentioned EI express above, would this replace EI regional?

Aer Lingus Express sounds like a replica of Iberia Express.

Iberia launched IB Express with the idea of transferring loss making short haul routes to a lower cost base operation. It triggered serious industrial unrest as staff and unions feared it would lead to job losses or forced lower conditions.

Iberia Express started with a handful of aircraft and quickly grew to over 40, most from Iberia mainline.

I’m not sure Aer Lingus’ short haul network is large enough to be split in a similar way nor would unions allow it.

The unrest at Iberia resulted in two weeks worth of strike action, massive losses and a CEO resignation. Whether IAG think that’s a price worth to pay at Aer Lingus is something we’ll have to wait and see to find out.

Either way, Aer Lingus short haul has stagnated over the last five years, the network has barely grown and the airline has retreated from certain markets while others expand. If cost is the main concern, an IB Express model would undoubtedly be a tempting proposition.

Van.Bosch

OU812 wrote: »

Looks like the 5 year plan for the US has stalled also. Expanding capability is great, but new destinations are needed.

Why are new destinations needed? EI exist to make money, they would fly 10A330’s to Boston rather one to 10 destinations if it made them more money.

From an observer point of view, it’s great to see new routes etc but EI are focussed on profit

Jamie2k9

Locker10a wrote: »

Could it possibly be space in the schedule due to the 321LRs doing some morning Euro rotations?

Not a massive amount of extra capacity available. Only 2 A321LR based one doing 7.30 LHR. Question is will the second do a LHR like in winter.

Other than that FAO goes A333 daily and FUE is dropped for summer only.

One to watch out for is if the 5th CDG service will resume and if they get other A321LRs over summer will they be put into short haul service or will there be a backup for T/A.

Tenger

OU812 wrote: »

Looks like the 5 year plan for the US has stalled also. Expanding capability is great, but new destinations are needed.

You must have some insight into EI head office so. I didn't realise the "5 year plan" guaranteed new routes each year.

Adding capacity is still expansion, granted not as interesting as new routes.

sherology

kevinandrew wrote: »

Aer Lingus Express sounds like a replica of Iberia Express.

Iberia launched IB Express with the idea of transferring loss making short haul routes to a lower cost base operation. It triggered serious industrial unrest as staff and unions feared it would lead to job losses or forced lower conditions.

Iberia Express started with a handful of aircraft and quickly grew to over 40, most from Iberia mainline.

I’m not sure Aer Lingus’ short haul network is large enough to be split in a similar way nor would unions allow it.

The unrest at Iberia resulted in two weeks worth of strike action, massive losses and a CEO resignation. Whether IAG think that’s a price worth to pay at Aer Lingus is something we’ll have to wait and see to find out.

Either way, Aer Lingus short haul has stagnated over the last five years, the network has barely grown and the airline has retreated from certain markets while others expand. If cost is the main concern, an IB Express model would undoubtedly be a tempting proposition.

Isn't EI short haul 'express' already? It's just a std. cabin with buy-onboard. Perhaps with LR/XLR long haul cabins coming into the fray on early Short haul routes, they may want to rebrand the current 'all economy seating' fleet as 'express' so folks know what they're flying on/getting cabin-wise. Don't see EI disrupting unions and agreements for all pain/no gain. Just a fleet distinguisher IMO - if at all true.

Locker10a

sherology wrote: »

Isn't EI short haul 'express' already? It's just a std. cabin with buy-onboard. Perhaps with LR/XLR long haul cabins coming into the fray on early Short haul routes, they may want to rebrand the current 'all economy seating' fleet as 'express' so folks know what they're flying on/getting cabin-wise. Don't see EI disrupting unions and agreements for all pain/no gain. Just a fleet distinguisher IMO - if at all true.

Yeah, I’d see pretty much the whole short haul product becoming EI express, with expansion coming on smaller regional jets through Stobart/Hibernia/CityJet

kevinandrew

sherology wrote: »

Isn't EI short haul 'express' already? It's just a std. cabin with buy-onboard. Perhaps with LR/XLR long haul cabins coming into the fray on early Short haul routes, they may want to rebrand the current 'all economy seating' fleet as 'express' so folks know what they're flying on/getting cabin-wise. Don't see EI disrupting unions and agreements for all pain/no gain. Just a fleet distinguisher IMO - if at all true.

Iberia Express (and presumably any Aer Lingus Express) is less about the on board product and more about the cost base. It was a way to transfer loss making routes and staff to a lower cost operation. The product remained pretty much the same as Iberia apart from a watered down euro business class up front similar to Vueling and now Aer Lingus’ own Aer Space.

As I said, I agree it might be a bit much to split the short haul operation and anger unions in the process just to achieve lower costs. However, Aer Lingus are clearly struggling to grow short haul, the network has been stagnant for a while bar the odd addition every other summer or so.

It wouldn’t surprise me to see them attempt something like Express. Whether it would be wise or not, is another thing.

alancostello

kevinandrew wrote: »

Iberia Express (and presumably any Aer Lingus Express) is less about the on board product and more about the cost base. It was a way to transfer loss making routes and staff to a lower cost operation. The product remained pretty much the same as Iberia apart from a watered down euro business class up front similar to Vueling and now Aer Lingus’ own Aer Space.

As I said, I agree it might be a bit much to split the short haul operation and anger unions in the process just to achieve lower costs. However, Aer Lingus are clearly struggling to grow short haul, the network has been stagnant for a while bar the odd addition every other summer or so.

It wouldn’t surprise me to see them attempt something like Express. Whether it would be wise or not, is another thing.

I think it might be inevitable, BA has Mixed Fleet, IB has IB Express, Vueling and Level are again attempts at the same, they interline and feed the main carriers but just at a lower cost base. If it means routes that were otherwise financially inoperable or cancelled are launched or come back, I'm all for it. If EI take back Regional ops and blend them in to an Express-style operation, all the better!

Locker10a

alancostello wrote: »

I think it might be inevitable, BA has Mixed Fleet, IB has IB Express, Vueling and Level are again attempts at the same, they interline and feed the main carriers but just at a lower cost base. If it means routes that were otherwise financially inoperable or cancelled are launched or come back, I'm all for it. If EI take back Regional ops and blend them in to an Express-style operation, all the better!

In fairness EI are a very different scale compared to BA and IB, and have already really scaled back staff costs over the past 15 years. Their cabin crew operate mixed fleet just like BA and are used to their maximum productivity with FTLs, it’s not unheard of for crew to be grounded due to exceeding their hours. Pay is on a par with the cost of living here in Ireland, certainly not excessive and whatever you’re paid in EI you earn it!

I see EI express as a new arm of regional jet flying. The unions (crucially the pilots) have agreed to outsourced regional jet flying already. This is how CityJet wearing the shamrock came about. There’s nothing to prevent this expanding with Ejets or CRJs, and EI express would be the brand but operate similar to KLM cityhopper for example.
Would be useful for increasing frequency and making thinner routes more viable

Van.Bosch

Locker10a wrote: »

In fairness EI are a very different scale compared to BA and IB, and have already really scaled back staff costs over the past 15 years. Their cabin crew operate mixed fleet just like BA and are used to their maximum productivity with FTLs, it’s not unheard of for crew to be grounded due to exceeding their hours. Pay is on a par with the cost of living here in Ireland, certainly not excessive and whatever you’re paid in EI you earn it!

I see EI express and a new arm of regional jet flying. The unions (crucially the pilots) have agreed to outsourced regional jet flying already. This is how CityJet wearing the shamrock came about. There’s nothing to prevent this expanding with Ejets or CRJs, and EI express would be the brand but operate similar to KLM cityhopper for example.
Would be useful for increasing frequency and making thinner routes more viable

I assume you mean you see EI express AS a new arm, not AND?

I agree - do you think they would take all the EI regional stuff back in house or combine all outsourced ops into EI express?

Locker10a

Van.Bosch wrote: »

I assume you mean you see EI express AS a new arm, not AND?

I agree - do you think they would take all the EI regional stuff back in house or combine all outsourced ops into EI express?

Sorry yes, edited.
I’m not sure but logically I think it would make more sense to have everything under the one “express” umbrella so both ATR and regional jets. It’s all pie in the sky at the moment but it would be a good way for them to expand and up frequency. Regional Jets could open up new routes maybe to Scandinavia and add frequency to other key euro markets. Would also free up mainline flying to add capacity where it’s demanded.

EIMH

Next A330 first flight today

EI-EIM Aer Lingus Airbus A330-302
Manufacturer Serial Number (MSN) 1950
Aircraft Type Airbus A330-302
First Flight 21 Nov 2019
Age 0.0 Years
Test registration F-WWCR

kevinandrew

The next A321LR has also been spotted in Hamburg, EI-LRD is in primer with its tail painted. Still a good few months away at this stage.