Principal Officer in the Civil Service

4ensic15

dee75 wrote: »

Didn't the poster above say his comment about 5 private sector people turning it down on financial grounds, was based on anecdotal information only?

Personally I find it hard to believe that someone would go through the whole process and only when they are offered a post realise that the money on offer isn't acceptable to them.

I think it's far more likely that the length of time that has passed since they applied originally has meant their personal or professional circumstances have changed, such as they may have started a new job. If someone is applying for jobs including PO they are motivated to leave where ever they are and if another offer comes up quicker than the PO panel can offer, it's hardly surprising they will take it and move on.

There have been plenty of comments on this thread about how long the whole process is and how much longer this panel is likely to continue.

A lot of external candidates may not have the luxury of staying where they are and waiting it out.

I hear a lot of people are taking salary cuts to become POs. It seems to be improved life balance, family friendly working arrangements and gilt-edged pensions outweigh the drop in earnings for some people.

The_Conductor

4ensic15 wrote: »

I hear a lot of people are taking salary cuts to become POs. It seems to be improved life balance, family friendly working arrangements and gilt-edged pensions outweigh the drop in earnings for some people.

They're in for a shock then- a civil service pension is based on 40 years service- and is no longer a final salary pension. Its also reduced by the contributory old age pension. Life balance and family friendly policies- a PO is oncall, 24-7, they're not a CO you know.......... Honestly, it sounds like someone has been sold a fairy story..........

Tristram

Is this panel due to expire soon?

The_Conductor

Tristram wrote: »

Is this panel due to expire soon?

Not until the end of September.
DPER are apparently trying to extend it- but the AHCPS are vehemently opposed.

4ensic15

The_Conductor wrote: »

They're in for a shock then- a civil service pension is based on 40 years service- and is no longer a final salary pension. Its also reduced by the contributory old age pension. Life balance and family friendly policies- a PO is oncall, 24-7, they're not a CO you know.......... Honestly, it sounds like someone has been sold a fairy story..........

the 40 years doesn't have to be served. service can be bought. On call does not mean at work. Those who have left professional firms to become PO's find their working hours are much less than the private sector. The pensions is only reduced by the OACP actually paid, and the average earning clause for a PO entrant will ensure a good pension.

The_Conductor

4ensic15 wrote: »

the 40 years doesn't have to be served. service can be bought. On call does not mean at work. Those who have left professional firms to become PO's find their working hours are much less than the private sector. The pensions is only reduced by the OACP actually paid, and the average earning clause for a PO entrant will ensure a good pension.

Have you had to put through any pension calculations for staff lately?
I've over 20 people turn down buying notional service- when the price was spelt out to them- since June of last year. I'm sure anyone else who deals with superannuation queries has the same. Also there is a max of notional service that can be purchased.

Vis-a-vis the hours being less- honestly, and speaking as someone who has come from the private sector myself- it depends on what Division and what section you find yourself in- it also depends on what is happening in the outside environment- I could show you dozens of paychecks where my sanctioned overtime was higher than my core salary (none of them recent- but all civil service).

You can't say that people can expect better hours, a better work life balance- or any other platitudes that you hear the whole time in the media- it depends on where someone gets, and the situations they find themselves in...........

Also the pension is reduced by the full amount of the prevailing old age contributory pension using the COPC formula- its at council with two very different unions at the moment- for obvious reasons.

The rosy scenarios the media love to portray- are not to be taken at face value.

4ensic15

The_Conductor wrote: »

Have you had to put through any pension calculations for staff lately?
I've over 20 people turn down buying notional service- when the price was spelt out to them- since June of last year. I'm sure anyone else who deals with superannuation queries has the same. Also there is a max of notional service that can be purchased.

I know an EO who is looking at paying about 100k for 12 years service. Not a lot really.

AndrewJRenko

The_Conductor wrote: »

Have you had to put through any pension calculations for staff lately?
I've over 20 people turn down buying notional service- when the price was spelt out to them- since June of last year. I'm sure anyone else who deals with superannuation queries has the same. Also there is a max of notional service that can be purchased.

I got in to Notional Service Purchase before the price increases around 2007. The pensions consultant who reviewed my status told me that I was getting good value for my investment, but that he was advising current applicants who would be paying the higher current prices to put their money into a standard AVC instead for better value.

This is also the issue of diversification to reduce risk. Do you really want to have ALL your pension eggs in the public sector basket, where a future Government can reduce your benefits at the stroke of a pen? It might be better to put your spare money into an AVC, so the risk becomes the market risk - not future government risk.

The_Conductor

4ensic15 wrote: »

I know an EO who is looking at paying about 100k for 12 years service. Not a lot really.

12 years service at (for arguments sake) the max of the EO scale (lets round it up to 50k) = pension entitlement of 25k - contrib rate of 12k = civil service pension of 13k.

Using the actuarial 4% discount table- 13k @ 4% with a purchase date of 28 years is an interesting proposition.

The value of your 100k in todays terms- is 300k in terms of 28 years hence (302k @ 4% discount rate)

Presuming the holder is on the max of the EO salary scale and it increments @ 2.5% per annum (rather generous)- this results in a civil service pension of 26k in 28 years hence.

This indicates a 8.65% ROI - which is pretty ok, its smack bang in the middle of investment grade (closer to 10% would be preferable, but its reasonable enough).

The above assumes a 4% discount rate (pretty standard) and a 2.5% rate of salary inflation which may or may not be realistic- the happenings of the last 25 years would suggest its 12-15% overvalued over a 28 year period- which is within the realms of statistical norms.

I'd argue that for your EO- if he/she has 100k sitting in their bank account and doesn't know what to do with it- the purchase of notional service is a reasonable manner of investing their 100k- however, if they have to borrow the 100k- it doesn't make any sense whatsoever (i.e. the discounted purchase price is significantly higher than the officer could expect in inflation adjusted disbursements 28 years hence).

Also wholly ignoring the contributory old age pension and what may happen with it over time (for example our dependency rate is projected to double over the next 12 years- never mind 28 years- as our COAP is completely unfunded- it beggars belief that it'll be maintained at current levels- which in turn could mean the civil service pension is worth a lot more- if the schemes aren't reformed again, for pre-existing office holders, in the intervening period of time......... (which is probable, not just possible- as civil servants make excellent whipping boys for the politicians).

Its not a cheap purchase- and there are too many unknowns to try and say whether its good value, or not- in today's terms- personally- I'd probably try and buy a small property in a provincial Portuguese town for my 100k- and use it for holiday purposes for the next 28 years, before retiring there on a reduced Irish pension (about a 68-70% pension). Everyone unto themselves- there are just too many unknowns for me to be comfortable investing 100k in notional service at moment.

Wonder when PED will be redoing the actuarial tables again and what presumptions they will be making- I'd give my right arm to FOI the paperwork on it.

Grey AP

In the absence of any reply from PAS on the state of the panel (to be fair, they have been prompt until now, so I assume the relevant person is on Easter leave), here are the stats for my department since this panel began.

POs appointed since 7.2015 - 15
Appointments from internal panels - 6 (last place on previous panel, all five places on latest panel)
Appointments from open panel - 9

This is a 2:3 ratio internal to external, a bit below the agreed 1:3, so either this dept had internal places stored up or it now owes the open panel. I would suspect that quite a few depts have been busy emptying their own panels since the big rush off the open panel in December/January.

Ever the optimist, I am hoping this will mean a steady flow from our panel, though I hear that the AHCPS (also noted by the Conductor above), as ever representing the interests of not all of its members, is pushing to close us down. Any info on your own departments would be welcome, as well as any confirmation or refutation of the rumoured AHCPS position. Also, any emailing of the AHCPS to ask them if they are actively seeking to prevent the promotion of their members, and if so why, would be very useful, I feel.

Public2015

Grey AP wrote: »

Also, any emailing of the AHCPS to ask them if they are actively seeking to prevent the promotion of their members, and if so why, would be very useful, I feel.

An excellent idea. Here is the email address info@ahcps.ie . No harm asking them to support the panel rather than trying to close it down.

Grey AP

Public2015 wrote: »

An excellent idea. Here is the email address info@ahcps.ie . No harm asking them to support the panel rather than trying to close it down.

Done.

4ensic15

The_Conductor wrote: »

12 years service at (for arguments sake) the max of the EO scale (lets round it up to 50k) = pension entitlement of 25k - contrib rate of 12k = civil service pension of 13k.

Using the actuarial 4% discount table- 13k @ 4% with a purchase date of 28 years is an interesting proposition.

The value of your 100k in todays terms- is 300k in terms of 28 years hence (302k @ 4% discount rate)

Presuming the holder is on the max of the EO salary scale and it increments @ 2.5% per annum (rather generous)- this results in a civil service pension of 26k in 28 years hence.

This indicates a 8.65% ROI - which is pretty ok, its smack bang in the middle of investment grade (closer to 10% would be preferable, but its reasonable enough).

The above assumes a 4% discount rate (pretty standard) and a 2.5% rate of salary inflation which may or may not be realistic- the happenings of the last 25 years would suggest its 12-15% overvalued over a 28 year period- which is within the realms of statistical norms.

I'd argue that for your EO- if he/she has 100k sitting in their bank account and doesn't know what to do with it- the purchase of notional service is a reasonable manner of investing their 100k- .

The €100k is tax deductible in full so this means it is only going to cost less that €50k. Not much one can do with 50k these days.

The_Conductor

4ensic15 wrote: »

The €100k is tax deductible in full so this means it is only going to cost less that €50k. Not much one can do with 50k these days.

The quantity of it that is tax deductible depends on your age and your net relevant earnings- however, for an EO, aged 30, on net relevant earnings of 50k (probably optimistic, but hey)- 20% of their net relevant earnings are allowable as a pension contribution for tax purposes (that is 10k in total).

The maximum percentage for tax purposes allowable for an individual depends entirely on their age- so someone:

Up to 29 years - can pay up to 15% of their net relevant earnings

30 to 39 years - can pay up to 20% of their net relevant earnings

40 to 49 years - can pay up to 25% of their net relevant earnings

50 to 54 years - can pay up to 30% of their net relevant earnings

55 to 59 years - can pay up to 35% of their net relevant earnings

60 and over - can pay up to 40% of their net relevant earnings

Its not as simple as saying the entire 100k is tax deductible- thus it only costs the individual 50k- unfortunately, its not that simple- though many of us wish it were.........

4ensic15

It is deductible against the notional earnings the 12 years represents.

Grey AP

Good news update - the AHCPS advises that it has not sought the closure of the open PO panel. As PAS still has no closing date, I think we may be all right for a while yet. Indeed, even if a new competition were to be opened in Q4 this year (they are flat out with APs/AOs/HEOs at the moment), it is unlikely that there would be a new panel until end Q2 2018. If there is an average of 6 appointments a month, I would expect our own panel to be exhausted by Q2 next year.

Given what appears to be a retirement torrent starting this summer, and the fact that many of the internal panels put in place since the open comp are already emptied, I think that a six a month average is quite realistic. So far this year, though it has been very slow lately, there have been 27 appointments in 3.5 months, an average of just under 8.

Fellow panel members, it is now our duty to persuade our older colleagues of the benefits of maximising their use of that gold-plated PO pension.

Grey AP

Two appointments in April. These people had better start retiring or getting promoted quickly, or there'll be trouble.

Uriel.

Grey AP wrote: »

Two appointments in April. These people had better start retiring or getting promoted quickly, or there'll be trouble.

Think there's a few assistant secretary./equivalent competitions ongoing or coming up.

Most people on po panel that I know are starting to give up on foot of recent slow down but Still hopeful though

Grey AP

Uriel. wrote: »

Think there's a few assistant secretary./equivalent competitions ongoing or coming up.

Most people on po panel that I know are starting to give up on foot of recent slow down but Still hopeful though

Yep, there is no doubt that optimism is becoming a bit scarce at the thin end of the panel. What we do know is that there is a retirement cliff this summer, as well as a TLAC promotion waterfall (well, more of a weir, really), but that either or both departments and DPER are a bit sluggish in seeking to fill them through things like planning ahead and applying to fill the posts as they fall vacant (why, after all, would anyone try to do something ahead of a known event).

However, it is out of our control, so I am just going to keep posting monthly progress reports until it ends one way or the other.

bobbysands81

4ensic15 wrote: »

I hear a lot of people are taking salary cuts to become POs. It seems to be improved life balance, family friendly working arrangements and gilt-edged pensions outweigh the drop in earnings for some people.

They're going to be in for a shock when they realise that the Irish Independent's view of the Civil Service is not actually reality.

Grey AP

Update - the panel is up to 90, with four more in clearance, so that's 3 appointments in May.

PAS advises that there are still "a small number" of those between 1 and 90 waiting for regional offers. However, if you are looking for a Dublin post, that won't affect you, as these will continue to be filled, however painfully slowly.

Have a nice summer.

Grey AP

On a positive note, as ever, the three appointments in May represent a 50% increase on the previous month.

The_Conductor

Grey AP wrote: »

On a positive note, as ever, the three appointments in May represent a 50% increase on the previous month.

I love your sense of humour.......

patmagee

The_Conductor wrote: »

I love your sense of humour.......

Morning all...long time lurker here...first time poster...serving AP in the CS and have been following this thread with great interest for the past 4 or 5 months...as I am currently languishing down in the mid 120s on the panel....champagne is definitely not on ice yet....and may never be...though trying to remain optimistic...

Some news of note is that a reliable source informs me that at the CS HR Managers' Forum on 1 June, PAS set out their stall in relation to the next PO Competition - and they plan on advertising this in July, with a view to a panel being in place in November.

So at best this gives us a possible window of 4-5 months for Depts/Offices to draw down a few more bodies from the panel...so you never know...given the retirement cliff...A/Sec Competitions...assumed massive debts to external panels across the system etc...so while things may well slow down again during July/August...there will hopefully be a rush on the panel in September to fill some posts...though some Depts may then opt to wait until November for the fresher meat from a new panel....but let's be honest...who knows

SingingScout

I too am a sometime poster / longterm lurker (and lurking even further down the panel)...the thought of having to go through another process (once more with feeling!) does not imbue me with either optimism or hope, but with the resilience that we APs are known for, I guess it is likely to be a case of 'mamma mia, here we go again'!!

Riskymove

with a new Depaertment of Rural Affairs to be set up, a number of new posts at all grades will be required - may be good news for this panel

bobbysands81

Grey AP wrote: »

Given what appears to be a retirement torrent starting this summer

Grey AP wrote: »

What we do know is that there is a retirement cliff this summer,

patmagee wrote: »

so you never know...given the retirement cliff...

Would someone mind explaining to me what this 'retirement cliff' is all about???!!!

Thanks.

Riskymove

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Would someone mind explaining to me what this 'retirement cliff' is all about???!!!

Thanks.

a suggestion that lots of POs are due to retire this year

The_Conductor

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Would someone mind explaining to me what this 'retirement cliff' is all about???!!!

Thanks.

Demographics- there are more current POs in the 63-65 year old group- than other grades- the average age of a PO is 58 (whereas the average age in the civil service in general is 51).

There is a retirement cliff coming in all grades- however, POs are a little ahead of the posse.

bobbysands81

Riskymove wrote: »

a suggestion that lots of POs are due to retire this year

Is there some pension cut-off point this year that if people retire they get a more favourable pension?

Riskymove

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Is there some pension cut-off point this year that if people retire they get a more favourable pension?

Not really as pay will be restored in Jan 2018 so not much of a difference

it is more to do with age as others have mentioned

Grey AP

Hi Bobbysands81

Because of a lack of promotion during the financial crisis, the senior CS has, to put it politely, acquired a somewhat advanced age profile, and there is a significant cohort of POs approaching or with 40 or more years on the clock, as many started their CS career straight out of school, and they can go any time. Of course, this is not confined to POs - we are seeing people exit in most grades in larger numbers than might be expected, for this reason. There has also been quite a lot of promotion to AS in the last while, from the PO ranks.

Sadly, I don't think the retirements and promotions in the next few months will be of much use to me, given the massive lag between vacancies arising and being filled, but if you are under 130 on the panel, I'd say you have reasonable cause for optimism. For the rest of us, it looks increasingly like it's going to be hope for the best but prepare for another comp. Whatever happens, it's out of our hands.

Bray Head

PAS have just launched a campaign for Open PO (higher scale) limited to Finance, DoT, PER and DFA.

There is a somewhat confusing paragraph which suggests that it will be run in conjunction with an inter-departmental competition open only to serving, standard-scale POs.

It is planned to hold a competition to fill vacancies in the Departments of An Taoiseach, Finance & Public Expenditure and Reform at Principal Officer Higher level. Eligibility for this competition is limited to existing civil servants at the grade of Principal Officer and equivalent, and to the sixty candidates ranked top in this Principal Officer competition. Any existing civil servant at a grade below Principal Officer or equivalent who wishes to be eligible for the Principal Officer Higher competition should therefore ensure that they apply for this Principal Officer campaign.

The_Conductor

Its a straightforward head-to-head transfer for pre-existing POs who might like a transfer to one of the listed Departments. I.e. its not a confined competition at all- its a transfer panel for pre-existing POs (or equivalents- the 'or equivalents' is probably the interesting part- I'd suggest its intended to try and draw PO equivalents from the HSE and elsewhere, into the civil service proper).

If any pre-existing civil servant who isn't a PO (thus far)- but would like to be considered for a PO post- please queue up with the external candidates- there is no internal competition for you guys.........

It sounds like they think they've identified a number of public sector employees at PO grade, who they reckon could be released without triggering a need for replacements- that what I'd read into it.

The Veteran

I read the Information Booklet (quickly) that came out this morning.There is a new open PO Competition launched. Open to all to apply for and from that there will be a panel.

Separately but subsequently, there will be a competition for PO Higher with the eligibility for that limited to:

- serving POs and equivalents in the civil service; and,
- the top 60 on the panel for PO.

The equivalents is a reference to equivalents already in the civil service so people who occupy posts such as solicitors, accountants, scientists, and a whole myriad of other specialist or professional posts.

Riskymove

The_Conductor wrote: »

Its a straightforward head-to-head transfer for pre-existing POs who might like a transfer to one of the listed Departments. I.e. its not a confined competition at all- its a transfer panel for pre-existing POs (or equivalents- the 'or equivalents' is probably the interesting part- I'd suggest its intended to try and draw PO equivalents from the HSE and elsewhere, into the civil service proper).

it is a competition as PO1 is a higher paid level

Bray Head

The Veteran wrote: »

I read the Information Booklet (quickly) that came out this morning.There is a new open PO Competition launched. Open to all to apply for and from that there will be a panel.

Separately but subsequently, there will be a competition for PO Higher with the eligibility for that limited to:

- serving POs and equivalents in the civil service; and,
- the top 60 on the panel for PO.

So there is essentially a two-stage process for anyone wishing to come in from the outside?

This is as clear as mud on a first reading.

Riskymove

Bray Head wrote: »

So there is essentially a two-stage process for anyone wishing to come in from the outside?

This is as clear as mud on a first reading.

A. There is an open competition for PO

B. If you happen to get in the top 60 of that you can be considered for PO1

PO1 is a PO in Finance, DPER or Taoiseachs.

Bray Head

The booklet was online (very early) this morning. It has been taken down now.

I suspect an error needs correcting.

The_Conductor

Riskymove wrote: »

A. There is an open competition for PO

B. If you happen to get in the top 60 of that you can be considered for PO1

PO1 is a PO in Finance, DPER or Taoiseachs.

Are there not Higher '1' grades in every Department- like AP1/HEO1/EO1?
Normally there is sanction for a set percentage of posts at each grade to be upgraded to '1' posts?

JD1763

The_Conductor wrote: »

Are there not Higher '1' grades in every Department- like AP1/HEO1/EO1?
Normally there is sanction for a set percentage of posts at each grade to be upgraded to '1' posts?[/quote

From my reading of it those three are the only ones recruiting directly into the higher grade. There are higher scales in other departments but as a set percentage based on the relevant grades seniority list.

tea and coffee

I see a DPER ad for POs and Counsellors in DFA on PJ now with today's date.

Riskymove

JD1763 wrote: »

The_Conductor wrote: »

Are there not Higher '1' grades in every Department- like AP1/HEO1/EO1?
Normally there is sanction for a set percentage of posts at each grade to be upgraded to '1' posts?[/quote

From my reading of it those three are the only ones recruiting directly into the higher grade. In other departments it's a set percentage of the most senior in the grade that are on the higher scale and based on the relevant grades seniority list.

Two types of Higher grades at AP and PO

They can be directly recruited to Finance, DPER and Taosieachs and all are at Higher grade from day 1


seperately, there are a certain amount of higher grade uplifts in other departments but are specific to the person not the role being done

patmagee

Riskymove wrote: »

JD1763 wrote: »

Two types of Higher grades at AP and PO

They can be directly recruited to Finance, DPER and Taosieachs and all are at Higher grade from day 1


seperately, there are a certain amount of higher grade uplifts in other departments but are specific to the person not the role being done

Most Departments award those uplifts to AP1 and PO1 on a "personal basis" to individuals on a senior/suitable basis, with the salary differential drawn down from the PCW 1% Allowance Funding (something that must be well past its shelf life at this stage!?? It's been around since 1999...).

Personally I think it is high time that the AHCPS (and IMPACT) showed some serious interest in analysing and pursuing (with DPER) precisely why the three 'Central' Departments continue to pay APs and POs on the relevant Higher Scales, from day one of taking up a post. With all this talk of CS Reform/Renewal, ONE Vision, professionalisation etc, the higher scales should be open to APs and POs across the entire service, where higher duties are being performed, and the higher salary can be justified, without resorting to the PCW Allowance scenario (which in itself is an antiquated and unfair process - completely out of reach for newer recruits - many of whom are highly qualified and competent).

Clearly such a move would be fraught with union objections, Departmental Council huffing and puffing, and indignant snorts from DPER itself - but this is a can of worms that needs to be opened. Good luck to those that have been anointed AP1 or PO1 in DPER/Finance/Taoiseachs, but those responsible for running the Merrion Street sweetshop must be pressurised to let us all have access to the goodies that they avail of without question or scrutiny.

Clearly any mechanism to appoint AP1s and PO1s must have a competitive element to it, and if that is (for POs anyway) being linked to the new Open PO competition then that is a step in the right direction - but not if successful candidates will only be assigned to the Central Departments - don't those of us out in the line Departments deal with strategy, policy, Ministers etc to the same high level???

My two cents.....

ShellyMCD

The info booklet mentions significant management experience at a senior level. Any point in going for this unless you have 5+ years as an AP?

Riskymove

ShellyMCD wrote: »

The info booklet mentions significant management experience at a senior level. Any point in going for this unless you have 5+ years as an AP?

yes you should apply

Unless the process has changed your performance at test and interview is what counts

I know of at least one AO who got PO last time

ShellyMCD

Riskymove wrote: »

yes you should apply

Unless the process has changed your performance at test and interview is what counts

I know of at least one AO who got PO last time

Thanks

wopbop22

The information booklet has still not been put back up. Would anyone who downloaded a copy this morning be willing to post it here?

ShellyMCD

Strange that they took it down.

Apologies can't post it at the moment as on my phone. Will try this evening at home

Riskymove

The booklet is now back