Principal Officer in the Civil Service

Grey AP

Uriel. wrote: »

Cheers for that bit of an increase in pace alright. GreyAP, you might be in with a shout yet

Cheers, Uriel - stranger things have happened. It certainly looks quite likely now for two of my department colleagues, who are above 100 but ahead of me.

Being positive, I'm not any worse off if the panel should fold before it gets to the lower reaches (still have a job, remnants of my health, my sanity and my hair etc), but I have always struggled in internal competitions (ie never got anywhere), so it's this one or wait for the next open competition. Fingers, toes and eyes crossed.

Speaking of internal panels, this may be my own bias but it seems to me that there is a disparity between external and internal promotion success - there are few enough who succeed in getting onto panels for both. Any views?

Uriel.

what do people find as the best approach to contacting PAS for an update - phonecall or email? I am guessing phonecall would elicit more info - any particular section or person to talk to?

Uriel.

Grey AP wrote: »

Speaking of internal panels, this may be my own bias but it seems to me that there is a disparity between external and internal promotion success - there are few enough who succeed in getting onto panels for both. Any views?

Not sure really, in some ways they are very different beasts - taking the PO competition for example (But also AP, HEO etc.) you have the online exercises and the job simulation stuff. That weeds out a lot of competition. I know a good few APs that went for the Open PO and didn't get through the online stage - in my view they would make great POs and have loads of good and varied experience at AP level.

I do think with internals it depends on the size of the Department and it depends on whether anyone on the interview panel is familiar with you, or at least familiar with some of the work/projects described in your competency examples. I think there is likely some bias there (mostly unconscious). But you can imagine if an interview panel member is familiar with a project you worked on they'd be thinking or saying to the other panel members, "yeah that project was massive for the Departments at the time, very high profile and complex, it was a great success", or "yeah I am familiar with X he's a really good worker, great potential, the example he gave is spot on, I remember him/her working on that project, he did an amazing job".

All of those things I am sure have some influence. Whether that's good or bad is another thing.

I personally think you need to take different approaches to internal and external competitions.

Grey AP

Uriel. wrote: »

what do people find as the best approach to contacting PAS for an update - phonecall or email? I am guessing phonecall would elicit more info - any particular section or person to talk to?

It's a bit hit and miss. I have phoned the odd time, but there has been no one available. Emailing direct from your PAS account seems best in getting a response, but you only get a standard reply ie what place the panel is up to. That is better than nothing, but it doesn't tell you how many are appointed - they might be up to 75, but if 10 refused an non-Dublin post, the real number is effectively 65. Also, it doesn't include dropouts which, if there are any beyond the most recent appointment, will be of interest. Looks like a phone call is the best bet.

FlyingTiger

I know as of last Friday that a Dublin offer had been made to someone in the early 70s. I don't think at this point there will be any further news as yet. Emailing is usually the best way to get a response but it tends to be vague enough.

Uriel.

FlyingTiger wrote: »

I know as of last Friday that a Dublin offer had been made to someone in the early 70s. I don't think at this point there will be any further news as yet. Emailing is usually the best way to get a response but it tends to be vague enough.

Sounds like there's only a handful of clearance requests going out then if offers are at early 70s and clearance just mid 70s. That could be just 2 or 3 people in clearance. Might suggest that they are in end game territory for the panel. Or could be just that they are behind on clearance requests - maybe another batch of clearance is coming up, but that depends on when the last clearance requests were actually made

FlyingTiger

Could be or it could be that clearance requests have gone out higher than the mid/late 70s. I can only be sure about that number due to a few people I know through work who have been contacted.

FlyingTiger

And that contact was just in the last week. If anyone knows of someone higher than that contacted for clearance hopefully they will post and advise.

Uriel.

I'll lash off an email and see if there's any other info available. Don't see an option for emailing directly from my PAS account, am I missing something?

FlyingTiger

The PAS usually just comment on the number of assignments. My experience is they generally won't comment on numbers with offers or going through clearance.

Riskymove

FlyingTiger wrote: »

Could be or it could be that clearance requests have gone out higher than the mid/late 70s. I can only be sure about that number due to a few people I know through work who have been contacted.

I know someone in high 70s who has not heard anything at all to date

FlyingTiger

Well maybe they are just one or so places behind the person I know. They should have reason to be optimistic in that case.

Riskymove

FlyingTiger wrote: »

Well maybe they are just one or so places behind the person I know. They should have reason to be optimistic in that case.

My mate has also been contacted now

Grey AP

Riskymove wrote: »

My mate has also been contacted now

Excellent news. Is that for clearance or with an offer? I am reliably informed that number 70 started in post yesterday.

Riskymove

Grey AP wrote: »

Excellent news. Is that for clearance or with an offer? I am reliably informed that number 70 started in post yesterday.

no just clearance, no offer yet

Riskymove

Grey AP wrote: »

Excellent news. Is that for clearance or with an offer? I am reliably informed that number 70 started in post yesterday.

is 70 a dublin post?

Uriel.

It is nice to see that the momentum is being maintained.
Hopefully there is continued progress on the panel in the coming months and it stays open for a bit longer.
It will be interesting to see the pace of offers and where they are located. It seems that it has been predominately Dublin which makes sense clearly. I wonder if there is in the region of 10 people now in clearance who are waiting offers if that means the next batch of offers, if any, will be Dublin. Somebody mentioned on here earlier that they received offers/request for expression of interest for regional positions before they went to the clearance phase.

Riskymove

Uriel. wrote: »

Somebody mentioned on here earlier that they received offers/request for expression of interest for regional positions before they went to the clearance phase.

that's how they do it

they go down the list until someone is interested. they are not going to clear 15 or 20 people who are not interested in the job

Grey AP

Riskymove wrote: »

is 70 a dublin post?

Yes, that is a Dublin post.

I am not sure about a cluster of non-Dublin offers coming up - PAS is request-dependent, so can only offer what it gets offered by departments. It may be that there are a number of those posts that haven't been filled and so there is a backlog. Given that it takes me about 50-55 minutes door to door in Dublin at the moment, I'd be quite happy to go to a post up to an hour outside the city, but a lot of people I've talked to, including those who drive into the city centre every day, aren't very keen. I guess if you see yourself going beyond PO, then you'd want to stay in the thick of it. Not so much of an issue for me.

Uriel.

I imagine that there is not a backlog of regional offers pending as those 10 or so people in clearance would have been offered them already, either before their clearance started or during the clearance phase.

Clearly the next requests from Departments could include regional posts.

Grey AP

True, and I hope so. It gives a bit of an advantage to those not so wedded to the city centre.

Uriel.

Confirmed up to and including 79 in clearance and up to and including 72 appointed. There are no active offers in play at the moment.

Grey AP

Uriel. wrote: »

Confirmed up to and including 79 in clearance and up to and including 72 appointed. There are no active offers in play at the moment.

Good news, and there will be active offers coming shortly. Most of the bigger departments are rolling out their internal panels to make sure that they can get as many people as possible upstairs within the current ratios (as you would expect), but from what I've seen (which answers the question I asked above, I guess, about success in internal and external comps) there are quite a few on this panel who are also on their own department's panel. For those of us in the upper reaches, who thought initially that these were separate groups, this is encouraging, as the dual candidates are still reducing the waiting list for us if they are promoted internally.

In my own shack, there are several vacant posts (four or five, depending on who you talk to) due to be filled internally, but probably another four or five arising, from a variety of causes, before the summer, in particular retirements. I would think that the situation is not dissimilar elsewhere. Accordingly, anyone up to the 120s, as long as DPER doesn't fold the panel early, should be fairly confident, and those beyond that a little less despairing than before Christmas. Perhaps there is a Santa.

Uriel.

Grey AP wrote: »

Good news, and there will be active offers coming shortly. Most of the bigger departments are rolling out their internal panels to make sure that they can get as many people as possible upstairs within the current ratios (as you would expect), but from what I've seen (which answers the question I asked above, I guess, about success in internal and external comps) there are quite a few on this panel who are also on their own department's panel. For those of us in the upper reaches, who thought initially that these were separate groups, this is encouraging, as the dual candidates are still reducing the waiting list for us if they are promoted internally.

In my own shack, there are several vacant posts (four or five, depending on who you talk to) due to be filled internally, but probably another four or five arising, from a variety of causes, before the summer, in particular retirements. I would think that the situation is not dissimilar elsewhere. Accordingly, anyone up to the 120s, as long as DPER doesn't fold the panel early, should be fairly confident, and those beyond that a little less despairing than before Christmas. Perhaps there is a Santa.

I assume your Department is Dublin based.

If your Department is looking at filling five PO Posts internally, they must have taken a lot from the external given the ratio or does the dualists (those on internal and external) solve that problem for them?

The_Conductor

Uriel. wrote: »

If your Department is looking at filling five PO Posts internally, they must have taken a lot from the external given the ratio or does the dualists (those on internal and external) solve that problem for them?

Home Departments get 'first-refusal' on any candidates being appointed/promoted from external panels- without it impacting on their internal ratios- regardless of whether, or not, the candidate is also on an internal or interdepartmental panel.

Uriel.

The_Conductor wrote: »

Home Departments get 'first-refusal' on any candidates being appointed/promoted from external panels- without it impacting on their internal ratios- regardless of whether, or not, the candidate is also on an internal or interdepartmental panel.

Does that mean if Candidate X is a serving civil servant in, for example Department of Social Protection and he or she is next on the external panel and is about to be offered a vacant position in the Department of Agriculture (as an example) that PAS will first contact Social Protection first and ask if they wish to keep Candidate X and have him or her as a PO in their Department?

So if Social Protection have a vacancy they can keep one of their own but it won't affect the numbers owed to external?

The_Conductor

Uriel. wrote: »

Does that mean if Candidate X is a serving civil servant in, for example Department of Social Protection and he or she is next on the external panel and is about to be offered a vacant position in the Department of Agriculture (as an example) that PAS will first contact Social Protection first and ask if they wish to keep Candidate X and have him or her as a PO in their Department?

So if Social Protection have a vacancy they can keep one of their own but it won't affect the numbers owed to external?

Yes- they get to keep one of their own- without it affecting their internal promotional panel........

Uriel.

The_Conductor wrote: »

Yes- they get to keep one of their own- without it affecting their internal promotional panel........

Never knew that that existed. Thanks for that

Grey AP

Uriel. wrote: »

I assume your Department is Dublin based.

If your Department is looking at filling five PO Posts internally, they must have taken a lot from the external given the ratio or does the dualists (those on internal and external) solve that problem for them?

I think that is the pattern - that they appoint their own off the external panel, and those appointments are, for the purposes of the ratio, external appointments. Also, and it gets a bit complex, there are historic obligations in and out of departments, and varying head counts are used strategically to reduce liability to open panels at various times. To be fair, though, a look down the staff directory here shows a quite a few new faces at PO level in the last year, certainly more than I had realised (and also at AP).

Of course, if your number comes up, your home department would need a sanctioned post to retain you. That may be problematic for smaller departments.

Uriel.

Grey AP wrote: »

I think that is the pattern - that they appoint their own off the external panel, and those appointments are, for the purposes of the ratio, external appointments. Also, and it gets a bit complex, there are historic obligations in and out of departments, and varying head counts are used strategically to reduce liability to open panels at various times. To be fair, though, a look down the staff directory here shows a quite a few new faces at PO level in the last year, certainly more than I had realised (and also at AP).

Of course, if your number comes up, your home department would need a sanctioned post to retain you. That may be problematic for smaller departments.

Internal panelists might be a bit miffed by that though, as while it counts as an external appointment in the ratio, the reality is that that department is down a vacancy. Imagine a scenario of three vacancies and the fourth person on the internal gets the third vacancy via the open panel ahead of the 3rd person on the internal panel

The_Conductor

Uriel. wrote: »

Internal panelists might be a bit miffed by that though, as while it counts as an external appointment in the ratio, the reality is that that department is down a vacancy. Imagine a scenario of three vacancies and the fourth person on the internal gets the third vacancy via the open panel ahead of the 3rd person on the internal panel

Well- if they fill them with a person new to the civil service altogether- or in the case of an indepartmental appointment- from a different home Department- they're still down a post no-mater how you look at it.

The main pro in this- is any given Department has first dibs on one of their own people- someone who doubtless is familiar with the work of the Department and in a position to hit the decks running- rather than taking months to get themselves up to speed on the Divisions they find themselves with charge of.

Grey AP

The_Conductor wrote: »

Home Departments get 'first-refusal' on any candidates being appointed/promoted from external panels- without it impacting on their internal ratios- regardless of whether, or not, the candidate is also on an internal or interdepartmental panel.

Does the candidate get approached or get given a choice on this? I would imagine that there are plenty of people who choose the external route in order to go somewhere else.

The_Conductor

Grey AP wrote: »

Does the candidate get approached or get given a choice on this? I would imagine that there are plenty of people who choose the external route in order to go somewhere else.

I don't know the answer to that- it might be best to clarify this with PAS- and indeed, if you'd rather move from your home Department- you could of course advise them of this upfront.

Riskymove

Uriel. wrote: »

Internal panelists might be a bit miffed by that though, as while it counts as an external appointment in the ratio, the reality is that that department is down a vacancy. Imagine a scenario of three vacancies and the fourth person on the internal gets the third vacancy via the open panel ahead of the 3rd person on the internal panel

thats just life really

if the person 4th on the internal is ahead of the 3rd person on an external panel, so be it...good luck to them

Grey AP

The_Conductor wrote: »

I don't know the answer to that- it might be best to clarify this with PAS- and indeed, if you'd rather move from your home Department- you could of course advise them of this upfront.

For my last promotion, admittedly quite a few years ago, neither the mother ship nor I sought to retain our relationship, though to be fair they were tighter times and they didn't have any vacant posts when I came off the panel. The current starship is definitely more of a holder of its own staff.

I tend to think that, as generalists, we should move between departments more - new approaches, fresh eyes and ways of thinking and so on, as well as variety for the employee - but then I have never been in a mega-department and there may more more scope for career variety in those.

Grey AP

Uriel. wrote: »

Internal panelists might be a bit miffed by that though, as while it counts as an external appointment in the ratio, the reality is that that department is down a vacancy. Imagine a scenario of three vacancies and the fourth person on the internal gets the third vacancy via the open panel ahead of the 3rd person on the internal panel

That's a bit of a delicate position. I haven't heard of it happening but it must do from time to time. There are certainly plenty of cases where people get on an open panel but not the internal one, so that would be quite straightforward - take it as it comes, according to the department's HR policy. The situation above, though, would raise a bit of angst about leapfrogging, even if it is, as Riskymove notes, likely to be the way it goes. One candidate did better internally, the other externally. It'll depend on which panel the department owes for that vacancy.

Riskymove

Grey AP wrote: »

It'll depend on which panel the department owes for that vacancy.

That is where I was coming from

If the vacancy is owed to the external panel, then that's that, regardless of if it is an outsider or someone internally who happens to be below me on an internal panel

I tend to think that, as generalists, we should move between departments more -

I agree but nothing much has been done to facilitate it despite general views that it should happen under renewal


There is anecdotal evidence of people already at say, AP, doing an Open AP competition as a way of moving Departments. This shouldnt need to be the option

luckyboy

Riskymove wrote: »

There is anecdotal evidence of people already at say, AP, doing an Open AP competition as a way of moving Departments.

This has definitely been done on a number of occasions. Aside from the moving of departments, it can help an existing AP in Location X to get to a more desirable Location Y. If that means changing department, so be it ...

Uriel.

Grey AP wrote: »

For my last promotion, admittedly quite a few years ago, neither the mother ship nor I sought to retain our relationship, though to be fair they were tighter times and they didn't have any vacant posts when I came off the panel. The current starship is definitely more of a holder of its own staff.

I tend to think that, as generalists, we should move between departments more - new approaches, fresh eyes and ways of thinking and so on, as well as variety for the employee - but then I have never been in a mega-department and there may more more scope for career variety in those.

It sounds to me from what the other posters describe that as your own Department has first refusal you don't get a say in the matter (unless your Department discusses it with you before claiming you).

The next vacancy ready to be offered to you from the external panel might be a Department or location (within Dublin for example) or specific job that might be of specific or particular interest to you, but that offer gets withdrawn, without choice/consultation because your Department wants to keep you.

Maybe that's fair and maybe that's life but I don't think the civil service, as a whole does itself any favours in these matters

Riskymove

luckyboy wrote: »

This has definitely been done on a number of occasions. Aside from the moving of departments, it can help an existing AP in Location X to get to a more desirable Location Y. If that means changing department, so be it ...

I understand why people do it, but I think if there was a more practical way of getting mobility/changing departments, people wouldn't have to do this

They are blocking other people form a job/promotion

Riskymove

Riskymove wrote: »

no just clearance, no offer yet

UPDATE

My friend in high 70s got an offer

Nocrac

Riskymove wrote: »

UPDATE

My friend in high 70s got an offer

Was it Dublin or regional? Thanks

Riskymove

Nocrac wrote: »

Was it Dublin or regional? Thanks

Dublin

Grey AP

Becoming a rawhide panel (rolling, rolling, rolling...).

Uriel.

great news. the momentum continues apace.

quad_red

There doesn't seem to be a separate thread for it but I was wondering is anyone on here applying via the APO/First Sec competition being run at the moment?

Omnishambles99

quad_red wrote: »

There doesn't seem to be a separate thread for it but I was wondering is anyone on here applying via the APO/First Sec competition being run at the moment?

Here you go

http://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057671941/21/#post102329984

Grey AP

A little-known wrinkle that will increase your starting pay if and when you get appointed from this panel.

Anyone on this panel who has been on the second LSI of the APO scale for more than two years should look at the 1977 pay on promotion circular (google it). This says that, if you are in that position, your starting pay is the higher of (i) the minimum point in the new grade or (ii) your current salary plus two increments on the new scale.

If you are an AP on the top LSI for 2+ years, this means you should start on the second point of the PO scale, not the first, which is another 3k in your back pocket. I'd say you would have to point this out to HR in your new job and argue your case, because they may not even know about the circular, which is still current.

If you are already appointed and didn't know about this, you should be able to get it anyway - rules are rules and, in this case, they are DPER/Finance's own rules. You should get it backdated too. Happy hunting and let us know how you get on - the more people who get this, which they are entitled to, the more successful others will be.

Grey AP

The pay on promotion circular works like this (I have used the post-1995 scale in this example).

You are on the second AP LSI = 76,224

The first three points on the PO scale are 79,401, 82,587 and 85,750

The first two PO increments = 6,349 (85,750 - 79,401)

If you have been on the top AP LSI for more than two years:

Your starting point on promotion = current pay plus two PO increments or the first point on the PO scale, whichever is higher
= 76,224 + 6,349 or 79,401
= 82,574 (>79,401)


As this is higher than the first point on the PO scale, you go to the nearest point on the scale, which is the second point. So your starting pay, under the 1977 circular, is 82,587, not 79,401.

You go to this immediately if you have been on the second LSI for three years. If you have only been on it for two years, the above applies when you would have hit three years.

midsummer21

Is there not a difference as to how pay on promotion is calculated if you are assigned off an internal / interdepartmental and open panels? As is open assignment is less favourable and the accrued plus 2 only applies to internal / interdepartmental?