Principal Officer in the Civil Service

Grey AP

midsummer21 wrote: »

Is there not a difference as to how pay on promotion is calculated if you are assigned off an internal / interdepartmental and open panels? As is open assignment is less favourable and the accrued plus 2 only applies to internal / interdepartmental?

Good question. Paragraph 2 (2) is the part I did the example from. This sets out the mechanics of pay on promotion and it is silent on whether you come through a civil service only or open competition.

Paragraphs 3 and 11 deal with promotion involving open recruitment and it gets a bit ugly. Maybe only two or three people in the world have ever understood paragraph 3. However, I read 3 as for promotion to grades with open entry, but not promotion by open competition - in other words, promotion to a recruitment grade at that time, such as EO - so not to this panel as we are by open competition.

Paragraph 11 (below) deals with our situation - current civil servants who get promoted by open competition. In the past, this would have been to CO, EO or AO only, as the likes of SO, HEO, AP or PO were only open to civil or public servants. the circular probably never envisaged an open PO contest.

Paragraph 2 itself is not qualified by the method of promotion and is silent on it. Paragraph 11 could be seen as casting doubt, but I don't know what "above the minimum of an off scale point" actually means, and chances are neither will HR. It is up to you to argue your case - what do you have to lose? You start on point one anyway, but you might do better. Overall, if you were refused, or even before you ask, try getting advice from the AHCPS.

Of course, this is my own view only, and all or any other views are welcome.

III OFFICERS WHO SECURE HIGHER POSTS BY OPEN COMPETITION
11. The starting pay of officers who secure higher posts by open competition is determined by the entry pay provisions of the Conditions of Service prescribed for the competition. Any such officer who enters the scale of his new grade above the minimum on an off-scale point should subsequently be put on scale on the basis provided for in paragraph 2.

Here is the circular - http://circulars.gov.ie/pdf/circular/finance/1977/34.pdf.

Owlet

Has anyone in the 80s heard anything yet about security clearance or been made an offer?

Thanks.

noodler

Owlet wrote: »

Has anyone in the 80s heard anything yet about security clearance or been made an offer?

Thanks.

I have heard of someone in the 40s getting placed recently.

Uriel.

noodler wrote: »

I have heard of someone in the 40s getting placed recently.

It's moved on considerably from the 40s. That must have been someone holding out for a specific non Dublin location.

Last I heard was offers were being made for the late 70s. The panel is moving at a decent pace now, fingers crossed it keeps going

Grey AP

Out of curiosity, has anyone heard of a panel member who has moved on - found another job in the meantime, been promoted internally, emigrated, thrown their hat at it because of the delay etc - and has effectively left the panel?

Owlet

Grey AP wrote: »

Out of curiosity, has anyone heard of a panel member who has moved on - found another job in the meantime, been promoted internally, emigrated, thrown their hat at it because of the delay etc - and has effectively left the panel?

Yes a few. Several have taken internal promotions. But I don't know anyone who has left because of the delay.

Grey AP

Owlet wrote: »

Yes a few. Several have taken internal promotions. But I don't know anyone who has left because of the delay.

That's interesting (and good news for those still standing and waiting), and not what I would have guessed, as my experience in general has been that there is very little crossover between external and internal panels, and I would have thought that some of the private sector applicants (I can't remember the exact percentage on the panel - was it somewhere around 20%?) would have lost patience by now and gone elsewhere. However, it is a very big panel for a PO contest and it is largely the same pool of people, I would imagine, going for both. In any event, anything that shortens the queue is welcome.

Grey AP

Up to number 77 have been assigned to vacancies, with up to number 79 in clearance.

Uriel.

Grey AP wrote: »

Up to number 77 have been assigned to vacancies, with up to number 79 in clearance.

is that coming from PAS or another source? surprised they haven't move on with clearance

Grey AP

Uriel. wrote: »

is that coming from PAS or another source? surprised they haven't move on with clearance

Direct from PAS this afternoon.

Grey AP

And now up to 79 assigned to vacancies, though I don't know how many of those are in their post yet or how many more are in clearance. All corrections accepted, but I think that was 20 or 21 assigned in January. Be interesting to see if that was a seasonal surge or if a steady outflow continues in February.

Uriel.

Grey AP wrote: »

And now up to 79 assigned to vacancies, though I don't know how many of those are in their post yet or how many more are in clearance. All corrections accepted, but I think that was 20 or 21 assigned in January. Be interesting to see if that was a seasonal surge or if a steady outflow continues in February.

That's a huge increase alright. Great news really for those on the panel. It'll be interesting to see if that momentum continues.

I wonder why there's been such a surge. Departmental budget cycles?

Grey AP

Uriel. wrote: »

That's a huge increase alright. Great news really for those on the panel. It'll be interesting to see if that momentum continues.

I wonder why there's been such a surge. Departmental budget cycles?

Perhaps DPER finally bit the bullet and accepted that it should exhaust this panel, as running a new comp isn't going to attract any more private sector people than this one. Also, there were a lot of vacant posts last year (and there still are), and as you say, budget cycle promotion - most depts are slow enough at filling them, as it keeps the year's pay bill down a bit. Though it could be that Christmas focussed the retirement mind for a lot of people.

Oh, and now mid 80s in clearance, I'm told.

Owlet

I am mid 80s and got a call to ask if I was still interested in positions, but PAS did not say they were starting security clearance. Hope to hear more on that soon.

The_Conductor

Uriel. wrote: »

That's a huge increase alright. Great news really for those on the panel. It'll be interesting to see if that momentum continues.

I wonder why there's been such a surge. Departmental budget cycles?

Nope- Personnel sections send DPER lists of all upcoming vacancies twice a year. Its sort of like car registrations- you get a surge in January- before a more normal pattern resumes. Some of the January appointments were requested as far back as last September- more than you'd imagine- its not all Dec/New Year requests (by a long shot).

Grey AP

The_Conductor wrote: »

Nope- Personnel sections send DPER lists of all upcoming vacancies twice a year. Its sort of like car registrations- you get a surge in January- before a more normal pattern resumes. Some of the January appointments were requested as far back as last September- more than you'd imagine- its not all Dec/New Year requests (by a long shot).

I didn't know that. Applying for sanction from DPER to fill posts just twice a year seems a bit clumsy, but explains why we can be left hanging with no PO for long periods. The next stage, on getting sanction from DPER, is notifying PAS of a vacancy. From what I understand, many (but not all) depts tend to trickle out the PAS notifications fairly slowly, which can reduce that year's salary bill (same principle as announcing a tax cut in the budget but not implementing it until the following June). So the January surge to around 20 assignments could be either or a combination of delayed sanctions from DPER and delayed notice to PAS from departments, meaning that many H2 2016 vacancies were clustered around the end of the year and start of the new year.

All the same, I think we can expect postings from the panel to continue at somewhere around 8 a month, given the existing vacancies, retirement rate and new posts being created. Hand me over that half full pint.

wopbop22

Hi everyone,

I didn't make it into the top 333 but got a result in the 400s. I know in the 2015 AP comp PAS continued to call candidates who did not score in the first few hundreds in batches to the later stages. Does anyone know if that might happen here?

Uriel.

wopbop22 wrote: »

Hi everyone,

I didn't make it into the top 333 but got a result in the 400s. I know in the 2015 AP comp PAS continued to call candidates who did not score in the first few hundreds in batches to the later stages. Does anyone know if that might happen here?

Honestly, no can't see it. Less po positions compared to AP. It's up to around 79ish on the panel after 18 months. It is unlikely to survive past 2 years. It will probably reach somewhere in the 100s on the basis of recent momentum but that's it

Grey AP

Owlet wrote: »

I am mid 80s and got a call to ask if I was still interested in positions, but PAS did not say they were starting security clearance. Hope to hear more on that soon.

Shouldn't be too long, then. No point in vetting someone who has moved on, so they ask if you are still interested, then send you the vetting forms after that. Job offers depend on when PAS receives notice of vacancies from departments. Like the rest of us, PAS has different priorities at different times (AO interviews, I hear, and more AP panels, are the top priorities at the moment), so it may all happen quickly or it might take a bit longer than expected, depending on that workload. Good luck, Owlet, and keep us posted.

Grey AP

Uriel. wrote: »

Honestly, no can't see it. Less po positions compared to AP. It's up to around 79ish on the panel after 18 months. It is unlikely to survive past 2 years. It will probably reach somewhere in the 100s on the basis of recent momentum but that's it

Would tend to agree about the call-up. The current panel, which has no expiry date, will either be folded early or exhausted fully (though it effectively started in 1.16, as the union and DPER wrangled for 6 months over internal/external appointment ratios, and even then, sanctions to fill vacancies were thin on the ground until mid 2016). If it is run out, that would likely be end of this year or Q1 2018 at the most. Whether it is folded or exhausted, it would, by 2018, be coming up for three years since the last competition and time for a new one, so I can't see a second panel being taken off this competition.

On the other hand, being the eternal optimist that I am, I think this panel will be exhausted. Even if it trickles along at 8 placements a month, it'll be emptied by year end. It took the best part of ten months from applications to first appointments from the 2015 comp, so presumably a year from the comp being set up by PAS to the first seats being filled. If the panel were folded, say, in June, and a new comp set up, it could be Q2 2018 before the new panel starts. That's a lot of PO vacancies swinging until they could be filled from a new panel, particularly given the upcoming workload of Brexit and the 2016/17 retirement surge.

Given all this, I think they will start a new comp mid to late summer, with a view to using up the current panel while that is in progress. However, this is my own view only, and all discussion is welcomed.

wopbop22

I heard that PAS are planning a PO Higher interdepartmental and open comp in late Q1 or early Q2 2017

The_Conductor

wopbop22 wrote: »

I heard that PAS are planning a PO Higher interdepartmental and open comp in late Q1 or early Q2 2017

Plausible after the fuss the AHCPS made of the current competition- and the lack of internal panels in several departments.

Grey AP

FYI, PAS advised last week: "There is no date yet as to when the current panel will close or when there will be a new campaign."

Given that it would take a while to set up a new competition, and they are currently heavily focused on other grades (AP and AO in particular), I'd be surprised, if a new comp is to be announced, that it would before May/June at the earliest. Even if that happened, unlikely to be a new panel before October, judging by the pace of the last one. And that is IF there is a new comp. Given their current priorities, and the presence of a reasonable sized panel remaining, I'd guess no new comp before Q3.

The_Conductor

Grey AP wrote: »

Given their current priorities, and the presence of a reasonable sized panel remaining, I'd guess no new comp before Q3.

Perhaps a small internal/interdepartmental- in view of the lack of internal panels in several Departments? Anyhow- its speculation one way or the other.

Grey AP

The_Conductor wrote: »

Perhaps a small internal/interdepartmental- in view of the lack of internal panels in several Departments? Anyhow- its speculation one way or the other.

Interesting about the internal panels, or lack of. Is that bigger departments?

In our gaff, they either just have, or are just about to, empty an internal panel. HR are a bit close but I think that means that, at best, they are all square with the external, though un petit oiseau tells me they now seriously owe the external. I'd guess that, if the former, they won't mind a few outsiders building up so they can empty their next internal panel as soon as it is picked. If the latter, then they just have to wait it out until parity. There will be maybe five or six more PO posts here this year, given retirements and so on, which means three or four panel postings, at the least, in quite a smallish house. I could see this being an issue in large depts, however, especially the widely spread ones, where an internal comp could take quite a while to run.

Anyway, as Conductor notes, this is only speculation. All we do know is that the panel is up to somewhere around 80 to date (any updates?), that 20-odd were appointed in January and that, as of now, there is no end date and no new comp. (Call me Sunshine, but that's better news than a few months ago.)

Keep that half full glass at your elbow.

Owlet

I think they have reached the early 80s now but I don't know for certain. It seems to have slowed up a bit.

Grey AP

According to PAS, there were three appointments in February, as the panel was up to 82 at end Feb, with three more in clearance. I haven't heard anything since then, but am restricting myself to monthly updates from PAS. People may have more recent news.

The_Conductor

Grey AP wrote: »

According to PAS, there were three appointments in February, as the panel was up to 82 at end Feb, with three more in clearance. I haven't heard anything since then, but am restricting myself to monthly updates from PAS. People may have more recent news.

3-4 a month would be pretty standard replacement rates for retirements?

Riskymove

Grey AP wrote: »

According to PAS, there were three appointments in February, as the panel was up to 82 at end Feb, with three more in clearance. I haven't heard anything since then, but am restricting myself to monthly updates from PAS. People may have more recent news.

yes they have hit 85 but only around 65 assignments made (ie 20 turned it down)

Lot of talk that it will close this year and a new competition will be launched by summer to replace it.

Grey AP

The_Conductor wrote: »

3-4 a month would be pretty standard replacement rates for retirements?

That seems reasonable, perhaps even a little low given the demographics - 15 departments, 36-48 retirements a year, so around 2-3 retirements annually per department. This is a smallish department, and there are three definite retirements this year, plus possibly two more, and there has been one kick upstairs so far. There have also been two new PO posts, as far as I know.

Given the above, and with a bit of luck, February was just a slump and things will pick up to maybe 6-10 a month.

Grey AP

Riskymove wrote: »

yes they have hit 85 but only around 65 assignments made (ie 20 turned it down)

Lot of talk that it will close this year and a new competition will be launched by summer to replace it.

Wow - 20 refusals, that's a quarter, give or take. Is that people looking to go outside Dublin, or just straight refusals (moved on, new job already, withdrawal etc)? On a selfish level, given my distant place on the panel, I hope that keeps going.

I have heard that the panel may close (mainly on here, to be fair), but have also been told by several sources that DPER intends to exhaust it, as PAS is focusing on APs, AOs and EOs for the foreseeable. The PAS position is that there is no closing date at this point and no new comp is currently planned.

Riskymove

Grey AP wrote: »

Wow - 20 refusals, that's a quarter, give or take. Is that people looking to go outside Dublin, or just straight refusals (moved on, new job already, withdrawal etc)?

I have only anecdotal info that says:

Mostly people who already got PO but some 5 private sector people who turned down the position ..on financial grounds

SingingScout

Latest update I got from PAS today is that 85 have been assigned. Previous response from them had stated that they generally have approx. 5 in clearance at any time, in order to service upcoming vacancies, which would bring us up to about 90. On a different level, they are also starting to process the recently formed HEO panel, and there are currently 60+ immediate vacancies at that level to be serviced, so I get the sense that they might be happy to let our panel trundle along quietly in the background for another while yet! (*glances nervously over shoulder and starts novena #163...!!!)

The_Conductor

Riskymove wrote: »

I have only anecdotal info that says:

Mostly people who already got PO but some 5 private sector people who turned down the position ..on financial grounds

Why the hell did they enter the competition if they were going to refuse it on financial grounds- the salary scales are widely published- as are all salary scales for all civil service grades. Its not that the salary on offer should be a surprise to anyone.........

tea and coffee

The_Conductor wrote: »

Why the hell did they enter the competition if they were going to refuse it on financial grounds- the salary scales are widely published- as are all salary scales for all civil service grades. Its not that the salary on offer should be a surprise to anyone.........

I'm guessing that they entered as a backup plan and subsequently got offered a position in a higher paying job.

Bobby04

tea and coffee wrote: »

I'm guessing that they entered as a backup plan and subsequently got offered a position in a higher paying job.

+1

... or the location would have a financial downside eg. commute, parking etc.?

The_Conductor

Bobby04 wrote: »

+1

... or the location would have a financial downside eg. commute, parking etc.?

Quelle suprise- those are the downsides that any of us have to accept however- I did my share of 5-6 hour roundtrips for a number of years as a civil servant- before I eventually managed to move to a location that better suited me. Thats part of life.

I honestly saw red and thought 'snowflakes' when I saw the private sector applicants were turning down the posts on financial grounds- particularly when the rest of us are used to having strips torn out of us over our salaries and 'gold plated pensions' in the media. Unfortunately- as most serving civil servants will tell you- those stories are just that- stories..........

The AP results were out yesterday afternoon- I fully expect we'll see a cohort of similar candidates turning down posts too...........

DPER have sold the media a story about how they want to recruit the best and the brightest to the civil service. Unfortunately- they also are complicit in not knocking the constant stories about salaries/pensions/lifestyles etc- on the head- when to be brutally honest- most civil servants see their daily lifes, their jobs and what they have signed up to- and can relate more to Grimm Fairy tales- than most of the stories in the media.

If people are honestly turning down these posts on financial grounds- rather than taking the post and making from it what they can, and giving their country some service, as Whitaker put it- perhaps we're better off without them?

dee75

Didn't the poster above say his comment about 5 private sector people turning it down on financial grounds, was based on anecdotal information only?

Personally I find it hard to believe that someone would go through the whole process and only when they are offered a post realise that the money on offer isn't acceptable to them.

I think it's far more likely that the length of time that has passed since they applied originally has meant their personal or professional circumstances have changed, such as they may have started a new job. If someone is applying for jobs including PO they are motivated to leave where ever they are and if another offer comes up quicker than the PO panel can offer, it's hardly surprising they will take it and move on.

There have been plenty of comments on this thread about how long the whole process is and how much longer this panel is likely to continue.

A lot of external candidates may not have the luxury of staying where they are and waiting it out.

hardybuck

If you're working in the private sector, if you're experienced enough to be in the mix for a PO post, you've got a career developed within a particular field in most cases.

These large open competitions offer vague opportunities, and until you're actually offered a post you haven't a clue what's on offer.

It's far from surprising that people might turn down an opportunity to work in an area they've got no interest or aptitude for. E.g. a Sales Director being made responsible for Sustainable Transport or something random.

cee_jay

The_Conductor wrote: »

Quelle suprise- those are the downsides that any of us have to accept however- I did my share of 5-6 hour roundtrips for a number of years as a civil servant- before I eventually managed to move to a location that better suited me. Thats part of life.

And the 5-6 hour round trip was your choice.
Other people may not be willing to forfeit that time every day for a role at this level, a role which would probably require working a lot more hours than what is stated on paper.
It is a sign of how these competitions are run. Someone may be willing to commute to Dublin for this role, but Dublin as a location preference is an extremely wide catchment area, and the Dublin commute is actually out to Clonskeagh or Swords. That would add a lot of extra time onto a commute, and is not feasible for everyone.

Bray Head

hardybuck wrote: »

If you're working in the private sector, if you're experienced enough to be in the mix for a PO post, you've got a career developed within a particular field in most cases.

These large open competitions offer vague opportunities, and until you're actually offered a post you haven't a clue what's on offer.

It's far from surprising that people might turn down an opportunity to work in an area they've got no interest or aptitude for. E.g. a Sales Director being made responsible for Sustainable Transport or something random.

Exactly.

It should not be very hard to split the jobs into locations and say 7 or 8 policy areas. Ask the top 30 candidates to rank their top 3. Use these criteria (rather than pure rank) to allocate the first 30 jobs. Then start again.

I suspect the Soviet Union had better methods of matching POs to posts than PAS does. It's doubly bizarre when you think about how specific the job descriptions for Assistant Secretary (a mere one grade above) are.

Nocrac

Grey AP wrote: »

Wow - 20 refusals, that's a quarter, give or take. Is that people looking to go outside Dublin, or just straight refusals (moved on, new job already, withdrawal etc)? On a selfish level, given my distant place on the panel, I hope that keeps going.

I have heard that the panel may close (mainly on here, to be fair), but have also been told by several sources that DPER intends to exhaust it, as PAS is focusing on APs, AOs and EOs for the foreseeable. The PAS position is that there is no closing date at this point and no new comp is currently planned.

I refused a few offers due to location but I am still on the panel. I know of others in the same boat.

Bobby04

Nocrac wrote: »

I refused a few offers due to location but I am still on the panel. I know of others in the same boat.

That's really interesting, because when I got offered my AP promotion and hesitated before accepting due to the location being far from ideal for me, I was left in no doubt that I wouldn't be getting another offer if I didn't take it... Bloody hell :mad:

The_Conductor

Bobby04 wrote: »

That's really interesting, because when I got offered my AP promotion and hesitated before accepting due to the location being far from ideal for me, I was left in no doubt that I wouldn't be getting another offer if I didn't take it... Bloody hell :mad:

Ditto.
There seems to be some sort of double standards going on here.........

Nocrac

The_Conductor wrote: »

Ditto.
There seems to be some sort of double standards going on here.........

The difference is that there are no regional panels for PO, unlike the AP. It makes sense if you think about it as there may be no PO positions in the counties a person could select as their preferences. If someone on the PO panel turns down a Dublin offer, then they won't be offered Dublin again.

Grey AP

Been away. Any updates?

Grey AP

hardybuck wrote: »

If you're working in the private sector, if you're experienced enough to be in the mix for a PO post, you've got a career developed within a particular field in most cases.

These large open competitions offer vague opportunities, and until you're actually offered a post you haven't a clue what's on offer.

It's far from surprising that people might turn down an opportunity to work in an area they've got no interest or aptitude for. E.g. a Sales Director being made responsible for Sustainable Transport or something random.

PO posts are largely generalist positions and the recruitment process is structured that way - a group of skills and competencies have been identified as the core minimum required for a PO in any general posting. We all have specialist knowledge and skills, which, in my experience, are required more frequently than might be supposed, but APs and POs are expected to be able to fill any post required at the grade (outside those specifically advertised as specialist, of course, such as legal advisers, economists, statisticians, scientists and so on).

I have no experience of a very large department, so it may be that in those people tend to stay in one area for most of their careers, but out here in the three bedroom semi departments, the expectation is that you will be asked to fill very different roles at different times.

hardybuck

Grey AP wrote: »

PO posts are largely generalist positions and the recruitment process is structured that way - a group of skills and competencies have been identified as the core minimum required for a PO in any general posting. We all have specialist knowledge and skills, which, in my experience, are required more frequently than might be supposed, but APs and POs are expected to be able to fill any post required at the grade (outside those specifically advertised as specialist, of course, such as legal advisers, economists, statisticians, scientists and so on).

I have no experience of a very large department, so it may be that in those people tend to stay in one area for most of their careers, but out here in the three bedroom semi departments, the expectation is that you will be asked to fill very different roles at different times.

I'm aware of everything you've mentioned and wouldn't contradict you.

My point is that this is unlikely to be appealing to those who have developed careers within their professional areas in other sectors.

Some will point to money, but I think the vagueness of the types of jobs that are on offer would require a huge leap of faith to the uninitiated.

Bray Head

hardybuck wrote: »

I'm aware of everything you've mentioned and wouldn't contradict you.

My point is that this is unlikely to be appealing to those who have developed careers within their professional areas in other sectors.

Some will point to money, but I think the vagueness of the types of jobs that are on offer would require a huge leap of faith to the uninitiated.

Added to this you will have the following scenario.

PAS will call you and tell you that you have been allocated to (for example) a big department like the Department of Education. You call up the Department of Education and ask what role you will be allocated to. They say they don't know, as there is lots in the mix including retirements and internal moves, and you'll find out on the day you show up.

This is all very strange and disconcerting to someone who has never spent time in the public service before.

I can see why someone might pass at the last minute.

Grey AP

hardybuck wrote: »

I'm aware of everything you've mentioned and wouldn't contradict you.

My point is that this is unlikely to be appealing to those who have developed careers within their professional areas in other sectors.

Some will point to money, but I think the vagueness of the types of jobs that are on offer would require a huge leap of faith to the uninitiated.

Agreed - the uncertainty is expected for us current foot soldiers, but could be daunting for new entrants. On a purely selfish level, I'm not averse to people effectively withdrawing from the panel, as it ups my chances of getting an offer before the axe drops, but if the numbers are significant then I feel for the people just outside the panel who might have otherwise got on it.

I contacted PAS on progress a little while ago, but haven't heard back. Does anyone have up to date figures, or know anyone who has been appointed in the last couple of weeks? The last report I had, from early March, was up to number 82 appointed, with up to 85 in clearance, but a colleague tells me it was up to 85 three weeks ago, with up to 90 in clearance. All news welcome.