Giving passports to the Chinese if they buy a house for 500k+

Mr. Loverman

I live in China.

A big story here right now is all the Chinese lining up to pay 500k for a house in Ireland so they can get an Ireland passport.

This seems like an awful idea as Hong Kong did this and it destroyed their properly market, and Ireland is seen as a much better destination than HK.

Are people talking about this back in Ireland?

People should be worried about this, as there are so many rich Chinese people who will do anything to get out of China.

Mr.McLovin

any links to this story? (in English please )

snubbleste

It's not just Ireland.
Bulgaria, Malta, Latvia, Cyprus all engage in the same 'buy citizenship' scheme.

The Latvia real estate option is the cheapest way to get residence permit in Europe but bank term deposit is the fastest method with minimal formalities. http://best-citizenships.com/latvia-residence.htm

Tefral

This cant be right can it?

If it is, we have truly lost our way as a country, that's tantamount to selling our citizenship... madness.

stevedublin

It is not something people here are aware of generally, afaik.
Do they intend to live here (with their families?)
Do they intend to get a job or set up a business if they get here?
They

Roger_007

cronin_j wrote: »

This cant be right can it?

If it is, we have truly lost our way as a country, that's tantamount to selling our citizenship... madness.

We did this in the past. Wealthy Arabs got passports if they agreed to invest money here. There's nothing new under the sun!

Mr.McLovin

Earlier in the summer (2013), Ireland reduced its minimum investment requirement by 50 percent; it now stands at $675,000 as well. It gets you a residency and, if you are patient enough, an Irish passport five years later.

seems to be old news

seamusmacc

here is the link

http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Guidelines%20for%20Immigrant%20Investor%20Programme.pdf/Files/Guidelines%20for%20Immigrant%20Investor%20Programme.pdf

conorhal

Selling citizenship has been the done thing for our politicians since Haughey introduced the scheme to flog passports to rich Arabs in the 80's. The only difference is that the 'value of Irish citizenship' has greatly depreciated in the time being, it used to cost a couple of mil, now it's down to the price of your average three bed semi-d in Dublin. Say what you like about that 'ol hoor Charlie, a least he was a 'high class prostitute', the current shower are nothing but a bunch of busted streetwalkers.

K.Flyer

seamusmacc wrote: »

here is the link

http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Guidelines%20for%20Immigrant%20Investor%20Programme.pdf/Files/Guidelines%20for%20Immigrant%20Investor%20Programme.pdf

So its not quite as simple as buying a house for 500k

Application for Immigrant Investor Programme
3. What Residency Permission is available to successful applicants under the Immigrant Investor Programme
Successful applicants and their nominated family members will be granted residence in Ireland for two years which will be renewable for a further three years. After 5 years residence participants under the programme will be entitled to apply for long term residence in Ireland. Where required the applicant will be granted a multiple entry visa for Ireland for the same duration. This will allow successful candidates to reside in Ireland and to travel freely to Ireland for the duration of the permission. The conditions of residence and the conditions for renewal are detailed below.
[Note: This Programme does not confer Irish citizenship on successful candidates. Persons granted residence under the Immigrant Investor Programme may apply for Irish citizenship under the terms of the Irish Nationality and Citizenship Acts and will be assessed according to the criteria provided for in that legislation.]
What investments will qualify for residency under the Immigrant Investor Programme?
Non-EEA nationals who are interested in acquiring residence in Ireland through the Immigrant Investor Programme can do so under any of the following eligible investment options.
1) Immigrant Investor Bonds
• A minimum investment of €2,000,000 in the immigrant investor bond issued by Ireland acting through the National Treasury Management Agency. The immigrant investor bond has a term of 5 years and an annual interest rate of 1% per annum.
Please note that any bonds referred to in these guidelines have not been, and will not be, registered under the U.S. Securities Act of 1933, as amended (the “Securities Act”), and, subject to certain exceptions, may not be offered or sold within the United States (as those terms are defined in Regulation S under the Securities Act).
or
2) Enterprise Investment
• A minimum investment of €1,000,000 in a single Irish enterprise or spread over a number of enterprises for a minimum of 3 years. The enterprise may be a start-up established by the investor or an existing business registered in Ireland. The enterprise must be registered and headquartered in Ireland. The investment must support the creation or maintenance of employment1.
• The investment must be made in the name of the individual seeking residence under the Programme2.

Mr. Loverman

That's something else.

The Chinese are currently just buying houses for 500k.

I read about some success stories (in Chinese) earlier today.

MayBea

I can see one million euro being mentioned:

..an investment in property will be considered eligible for the
programme. In order for the property investment to be the basis for qualification
for residence the property in question must ...be a residential property in which the applicant and their family intend to reside in Ireland (residential properties purchased for rental income
will not be eligible). In such cases a minimum investment of €1,000,000 will apply and this investment must be diversified between residential property and immigrant investor.

Supercell

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

That's something else.

The Chinese are currently just buying houses for 500k.

I read about some success stories (in Chinese) earlier today.

Linky, in Chinese is ok ?

Mr. Loverman

It's on Weixin so I don't know how to link to it.

The thing is this:

The Chinese are masters at bending the rules (or breaking them) so they may be using a loophole.

K.Flyer

FOR SALE
IRELAND
€500,000 ono

seamus

Not citizenship, residency. Big difference.

I don't see any issue with allowing people with substantial wealth to live here if they invest in the economy. Isn't that generally how we provide visas - get a job, contribute to the economy, and we let you live here.

seamusmacc

hmmmm.... See the "Mixed investment"

http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/New%20Programmes%20for%20Investors%20and%20Entrepreneurs

MayBea

It also mentions that

Note: This Programme does not confer Irish citizenship on successful candidates.
Persons granted residence under the Immigrant Investor Programme may apply for
Irish citizenship under the terms of the Irish Nationality and Citizenship Acts and
will be assessed according to the criteria provided for in that legislation.

Which means that they would require to reside in Ireland for some time before obtaining a passport.
More controversially, I have a colleague from China who said that Chinese national can't have dual nationality.

Mr. Loverman

seamus wrote: »

Not citizenship, residency. Big difference.

I don't see any issue with allowing people with substantial wealth to live here if they invest in the economy. Isn't that generally how we provide visas - get a job, contribute to the economy, and we let you live here.

Hong Kong is currently being destroyed by this.

Good things won't happen, I'm sorry to say that.

MayBea wrote: »

It also mentions that

Which means that they would require to reside in Ireland for some time before obtaining a passport.
More controversially, I have a colleague from China who said that Chinese national can't have dual nationality.

Many Chinese have dual nationality. It's a "don't ask, don't tell" sort of thing.

stevedublin

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

Hong Kong is currently being destroyed by this.

By driving property prices sky high?

Bob24

seamus wrote: »

Not citizenship, residency. Big difference.

True - but I guess with some pretty safe path to citizenship after a few years.

Assuming this story is true, it wouldn't work if people didn't feel that can get more than residency.

We are also using this to attract non EU students to pay full fees and fund our universities.

They know that once they graduate they will be automatically allowed to stay on a one year work visa, and that if they do find a job during that year they have a decent chance of staying here and getting citizenship after a while (nothing is guaranteed and this is not as safe as the investor path, but they are bringing less money to the table).

I am not convinced such policy indeed exists in Ireland (would like to see more evidence than "I have read on social media"), but if correct I don't think it is the smartest idea. A new 500khouse owner doesn't do much for our economy, and compared to students the ability of your average buyer to integrate into society will be much lower. Plus it could indeed create social tensions if it was pushing property prices up (see Western Canada where this type of policy was implemented and relationships between local communities and they newer richer neighbours and not super friendly).

Mr. Loverman

stevedublin wrote: »

By driving property prices sky high?

Yes, young HK residents really struggle to buy a home now.

Bob24

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

Yes, young HK residents really struggle to buy a home now.

While I agree foreign investor's programs are a factor, let not forget the fact that HK has one of the highest population densities in the world (and a population that doubled in the past 50 years) ... it must not help with increasing property prices either :-)

seamus

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

Hong Kong is currently being destroyed by this.

Good things won't happen, I'm sorry to say that.

It's a very different situation though in all aspects. Hong Kong is an enormous city for all intents and purposes - about the same size as county Dublin, and a population density 1.5 times that of Dublin city centre.

This kind of incoming investment driving property prices sky high lies on the issue of there being very little space to build new properties. So not only does it mean that new entrants to the city creates more demand for property, driving prices up, but it makes property a very safe bet in HK - "They're not making any more land" is actually true in HK. So this encourages investors to HK property.

We don't have the same in Ireland, we have demand issues on a smaller scale, but which are easily overcome by our vast tracts of undeveloped land, even in urban areas. And our property market is far from a safe bet, so the appeal of throwing down a million euro on property is far less than the equivalent investment in HK.

Or to put it another way, Ireland would need a population of over 400m before the supply/demand issues destroying HK become a reality.

Bob24

seamus wrote: »

Or to put it another way, Ireland would need a population of over 400m before the supply/demand issues destroying HK become a reality.

If one third of China takes-up the offer, we're screwed ;-)

gaius c

Is there a Daily Mail sub-forum this thread could be moved to?

gozunda

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

Yes, young HK residents really struggle to buy a home now.

We are already at that stage here ...

HandsomeDan

Why exactly would we be opposed to hard working Chinese moving here?

Sooner chinese than africans/ arabs

gozunda

Bob24 wrote: »

If one third of China takes-up the offer, we're screwed ;-)

There are over a million millionaires in China at present. Inward investors would need this as a minimum for the Irish Investment scheme.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/101995843

http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/New%20Programmes%20for%20Investors%20and%20Entrepreneurs

Now there are approx 1.4 billion people in China - most would not even get near the cut off point

It is of note that we are not the only country offering this type of inducement

http://m.ibtimes.com/troubled-european-economies-portugal-spain-greece-lure-wealthy-chinese-willing-invest-millions

The student residency scheme is going to a much bigger puller in terms of numbers in my opinion. Both China and India have potentially huge numbers of students who if they graduate here can apply for residency and eventually citizenship. This scheme also carries a right of residency for family members.

Mr. Loverman

Bob24 wrote: »

If one third of China takes-up the offer, we're screwed ;-)

As someone else already said, look what happened to Vancouver.

China is going backwards, they all know this, so they all want to leave.

Also, generally, the rich in China are undesirable.

They were all talking about it on Weixin today. Many are considering Balbriggan. Seriously, this is real.

Bob24

HandsomeDan wrote: »

Why exactly would we be opposed to hard working Chinese moving here?

Different debate, but there might be a significant proportion of rich Chinese who are only hard working when it comes to collecting bribes or talking to they government friends to secure public funding or restricted market access for their companies ;-)