Defence forces : A wider ceremonial role ?

cruasder777

If you go to any European capital you see the militaries of the said countries performing a full time ceremonial role at places/buildings of significance.

Except in Ireland.

It would be nice to see the army and air corps having this role in a few designated places, good for tourists too. Also raise the profile.

Heres the aer corps performing a ceremonial. And blatantly ripping off the RAF regiment, lol. But thats a compliment.

Firstly officer has a poor command voice... DLIPS: Distinctness, Loudness, Inflection, Projection, and Snap.....Is how drill commands should be given.


A fairly decent job, the drill could be sharper, I think raising the knee higher would look better, the arm raised higher when marching looks crisper, defence forces drill looks a bit too relaxed, the hand on the hips when aligning/dressing looks like mincing (1 min), the hand lower down, not on the hip, looks better, the belts on some look sloppy, and get rid of the sling, it serves no purpose. The defence forces needs a few drill Sgts if such a role happened . Such duties would be good all round.

and at 5 mins 55secs, court mounting the medals with buckram would prevent them jingling. and blackey segs on soles of shoes create a much better sound effect.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-t2kEaIY6wA


And civvys should nor be allowed to walk through the ceremony when its taking place.

cruasder777

3o secs, a great method of getting civilians out of the way.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpieDsRJAts

Manic Moran

Given that there aren't that many troops to begin with, they probably have better things to be doing.

That said, I've seen them do a ceremonial guard mount on Merrion Square, they could do with a little more polish when they try it.

Jawgap

It's basically down to the fact that Oglaigh na hEireann had a different genesis from most other militaries. It grew out of a revolutionary movement and a guerilla force and as a consequence it's heritage and traditions differ from militaries who have been involved in more 'traditional' pitched battles.

Second, 'ceremonial' is strongly associated with the British so in the early days of its existence the National Army was not keen on emulating the British (even though lots of other militaries do ceremonial) and even if they wanted to the politicians and senior civil servants wouldn't have stood for it.

The history of the Blue Hussars illustrates the point - they were formed as a mounted escort for the President before being disbanded because......

......motorbikes, the civil servants decided, would look more impressive

and, this always makes me laugh......

.....no horses of suitable quality could be sourced...........in Ireland!!! - at any given time over 90% of the horses in the Household Cavalry are Irish or bred from Irish draught stock.

Personally, I'd like to see a cavalry guard mounted at the Gardens of Remembrance - the daily sight of a 'short guard' of 12 Irish 'blacks' starting out from Stephen's Green, down Kildare Street, around by Trinity and clippity clopping down O'Connell Street, saluting the GPO before proceeding to Parnell Square would, in my opinion, rival anything that takes place in any other capital.

Also during State Visits etc a cavalry escort would surely look more impressive?

cruasder777

Its odd that a country so connected to the horse does not use them in ceremonial.

A ceremonial role would cost nothing to implement, so its a win, win situation.

Now that the CIT protection role has finished, the manpower is there.

Yes, the household cavalry's horses are sourced in the republic, my uncle used to be a buyer, cant go into detail for security reasons.

And lets not forget it was an Irishman from Waterford Garrison Sgt Maj George Stone who wrote the British armies modern drill manual and the modern day troop in the colour ceremony etc.

Jawgap

cruasder777 wrote: »

Its odd that a country so connected to the horse does not use them in ceremonial.

A ceremonial role would cost nothing to implement, so its a win, win situation.

Now that the CIT protection role has finished, the manpower is there.

Yes, the household cavalry's horses are sourced in the republic, my uncle used to be a buyer, cant go into detail for security reasons.

And lets not forget it was an Irishman from Waterford Garrison Sgt Maj George Stone who wrote the British armies modern drill manual and the modern day troop in the colour ceremony etc.

Your uncle was in the RAVC?

The process of how they acquired their remounts here is pretty well known - so I'm not sure what security reasons you're referring to!

cruasder777

Jawgap wrote: »

Your uncle was in the RAVC?

The process of how they acquired their remounts here is pretty well known - so I'm not sure what security reasons you're referring to!

Queens Royal Irish Hussars then head of Royal mews, who use the same horses and go over with representatives of the household cavalry. Obviously I can go into detail about breeders, where they are sourced etc.

Jawgap

cruasder777 wrote: »

Queens Royal Irish Hussars then head of Royal mews, who use the same horses and go over with representatives of the household cavalry. Obviously I can go into detail about breeders, where they are sourced etc.

Actually it's the RAVC's 'Buying Commission' who sourced the remounts.

And the full details of what they bought and from whom (and how much they paid) can be seen in the records of the Household Cavalry held at Combermere Barracks (Windsor).

cruasder777

Jawgap wrote: »

Actually it's the RAVC's 'Buying Commission' who sourced the remounts.

And the full details of what they bought and from whom (and how much they paid) can be seen in the records of the Household Cavalry held at Combermere Barracks (Windsor).

Obviously the horses are checked over by RAVC vets and I dont know whos account payment goes through. But the sales and breeders are dealt with by household cavalry and Royal mews representatives. I know this for a fact, not because I read something in a museum :rolleyes:



....And to prove my point....
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=0kt-AwAAQBAJ&pg=PA149&lpg=PA149&dq=household+cavalry+buying+remounts+ireland&source=bl&ots=z7YdwOyJcA&sig=EwKkGm9Z1kNSwF-TEScWHuZlZs8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=m2DoVIPrE4bm7gbYvIHgCA&ved=0CD8Q6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=household%20cavalry%20buying%20remounts%20ireland&f=false

Jawgap

cruasder777 wrote: »

Obviously the horses are checked over by RAVC vets and I dont know whos account payment goes through. But the sales and breeders are dealt with by household cavalry and Royal mews representatives. I know this for a fact, not because I read something in a museum :rolleyes:



....And to prove my point....
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=0kt-AwAAQBAJ&pg=PA149&lpg=PA149&dq=household+cavalry+buying+remounts+ireland&source=bl&ots=z7YdwOyJcA&sig=EwKkGm9Z1kNSwF-TEScWHuZlZs8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=m2DoVIPrE4bm7gbYvIHgCA&ved=0CD8Q6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=household%20cavalry%20buying%20remounts%20ireland&f=false

Well the 'something' I read in a museum was the records and correspondence between various Riding Masters, Squadron Leaders and the RAVC Buying Commission, the records of shipment and movement, regimental order and day books, statistical returns as well as the usual ledgers etc - this was done in the context of researching 'livestock' movements in Ireland which led into some work I did on the Remount Service which was merged into the RAVC .

In fact, if memory serves, the idea of regiments buying or procuring their own mounts directly went out with either the Cardwell reforms or the Childers reforms.

IrishTrajan

What really rustles my jimmies, is how the Irish Army does marches. They don't really march in step, they just try to swagger around. I can understand that it seems a superfluous request, but I would quite like to see the Army actually marching in tandem like every other First World country does.

cruasder777

Jawgap wrote: »

Well the 'something' I read in a museum was the records and correspondence between various Riding Masters, Squadron Leaders and the RAVC Buying Commission, the records of shipment and movement, regimental order and day books, statistical returns as well as the usual ledgers etc - this was done in the context of researching 'livestock' movements in Ireland which led into some work I did on the Remount Service which was merged into the RAVC .

In fact, if memory serves, the idea of regiments buying or procuring their own mounts directly went out with either the Cardwell reforms or the Childers reforms.

You seriously think army vets go over to Ireland to buy horses with no representative from the household cavalry, who will be using the horses with them ?

Jawgap

cruasder777 wrote: »

You seriously think army vets go over to Ireland to buy horses with nobody from the household cavalry, who will be using the horses with them ?

No, there is a rep from the Household Cavalry, but you said "my uncle used to be a buyer" - not "my uncle was in XXXX Regt and travelled as part of the buying commission" - now you seem to be backtracking.......

Also when you say your uncle was "head of Royal mews" - do you mean he was the Sovereign's Master of the Horse the person - according to the British Monarchy's website - who "is the senior officer responsible for the Royal Mews, and the carriages and horses of the Sovereign."

Or to put it another way - do you seriously expect me to believe that you are the nephew of a Duke, and Earl or a Lord......

List of Masters of the Horse

20th century

• The Earl of Sefton (1905–1907)
• The Earl of Granard (1907–1915)
• The Earl of Chesterfield (1915–1922)
• The Marquess of Bath (1922–1923)
• The Earl of Granard (1923–1936)
• The Duke of Beaufort (1936–1978)
• The Earl of Westmorland (1978–1991)
• The Lord Somerleyton (1991–1999)
• The Lord Vestey (1999–present)

.......and I thought my granduncle who was kicked out of the Irish Guards for impersonating an RSM was biggest spoofer I'd ever met

dandyelevan

My comments are NOT aimed at any previous posters on this subject.

It's always the same old story when it comes to our military when the subject comes up, whether it's in the pub, on forums, or anywhere else.
(I know what I'm talking about, having served in the PDF for more than thirty years)
Irish people have zero pride in, or respect for our tiny Army.
Zero, and they never had.
Some people go out of their way to find fault with them to back up their own private prejudices.

In their little world; having never donned a uniform or put themselves at risk of course, our Defence Forces are 'a joke.'
They are a 'badly trained waste of space' and use up 'valuable resources which would be better used to' ..... in...etc, etc.

I could go on and on.
God help our troops if Ireland is ever invaded (which I admit is most unlikely) because (imo) they'd have to fight on two fronts.

twinytwo

dandyelevan wrote: »

My comments are NOT aimed at any previous posters on this subject.

It's always the same old story when it comes to our military when the subject comes up, whether it's in the pub, on forums, or anywhere else.
(I know what I'm talking about, having served in the PDF for more than thirty years)
Irish people have zero pride in, or respect for our tiny Army.
Zero, and they never had.
Some people go out of their way to find fault with them to back up their own private prejudices.

In their little world; having never donned a uniform or put themselves at risk of course, our Defence Forces are 'a joke.'
They are a 'badly trained waste of space' and use up 'valuable resources which would be better used to' ..... in...etc, etc.

I could go on and on.
God help our troops if Ireland is ever invaded (which I admit is most unlikely) because (imo) they'd have to fight on two fronts.

just on your last point... if it ever comes to the point where someone actually invades us... i think its safe to assume the entire world is ****ed thus their ability to fight isnt going to matter

cruasder777

Jawgap wrote: »

No, there is a rep from the Household Cavalry, but you said "my uncle used to be a buyer" - not "my uncle was in XXXX Regt and travelled as part of the buying commission" - now you seem to be backtracking.......

Also when you say your uncle was "head of Royal mews" - do you mean he was the Sovereign's Master of the Horse the person - according to the British Monarchy's website - who "is the senior officer responsible for the Royal Mews, and the carriages and horses of the Sovereign."

Or to put it another way - do you seriously expect me to believe that you are the nephew of a Duke, and Earl or a Lord......



....I never said my uncle was in charge of the Royal mews, I stated he went over with reps of the Household cavalry to access and purchase horses for the Royal Mews.

The role you quote administrative, the Royal Mews employees alot of people.

Please stop posting bs.

Head of the Royal Mews horse/carriage stuff on a practical level, yes, not in charge of the Royal Mews, big difference.

IrishTrajan

dandyelevan wrote: »

My comments are NOT aimed at any previous posters on this subject.

It's always the same old story when it comes to our military when the subject comes up, whether it's in the pub, on forums, or anywhere else.
(I know what I'm talking about, having served in the PDF for more than thirty years)
Irish people have zero pride in, or respect for our tiny Army.
Zero, and they never had.
Some people go out of their way to find fault with them to back up their own private prejudices.

In their little world; having never donned a uniform or put themselves at risk of course, our Defence Forces are 'a joke.'
They are a 'badly trained waste of space' and use up 'valuable resources which would be better used to' ..... in...etc, etc.

I could go on and on.
God help our troops if Ireland is ever invaded (which I admit is most unlikely) because (imo) they'd have to fight on two fronts.

No point in even fighting an invasion, really... You'll just have people complain about the lack of hospital beds again.

I would disagree with you, I know a lot of people who just simply don't know enough about the Defence Forces. They're hesitant at spending more money (because lol taxes) but most of them are rather cordial.

I have met a couple people who simply say "nope" to everything you say, but those people I don't direct my argument at, I direct it to the people listening on the sidelines. So long as you're calm, cordial and well-spoken, they're the ones who matter, not the moron screaming about "muh chillerns iraq war 5.0".

Jawgap

cruasder777 wrote: »

....I never said my uncle was in charge of the Royal mews, I stated he went over with reps of the Household cavalry to access and purchase horses for the Royal Mews.

The role you quote administrative, the Royal Mews employees alot of people.

Please stop posting bs.

What?

You posted

cruasder777 wrote: »

Queens Royal Irish Hussars then head of Royal mews, who use the same horses and go over with representatives of the household cavalry. Obviously I can go into detail about breeders, where they are sourced etc.

My apologies if I have offended your grace......or is it your lordship.......:D

cruasder777

Jawgap wrote: »

What?

You posted



My apologies if I have offended your grace......or is it your lordship.......:D

I suggest you read my previous post and stop clutching a straws.

Is it a full moon tonight :rolleyes:

Jawgap

cruasder777 wrote: »

I suggest you read my previous post and stop clutching a straws.

Is it a full moon tonight :rolleyes:

Well if he's not Master of the Horse - was uncle a Gentleman of the Horse/Crown Equerry? or perhaps Superintendent of the Royal Mews? or a Stud Groom? or Comptroller of Stores? or Chief Clerk?

I think if you are going to peddle this kind of rubbish you could at least do some research - maybe pick someone from the Establishment Lists of the Royal Mews and use them as your uncle........

cruasder777

Jawgap wrote: »

Well if he's not Master of the Horse - was uncle a Gentleman of the Horse/Crown Equerry? or perhaps Superintendent of the Royal Mews? or a Stud Groom? or Comptroller of Stores? or Chief Clerk?

I think if you are going to peddle this kind of rubbish you could at least do some research - maybe pick someone from the Establishment Lists of the Royal Mews and use them as your uncle........

Keep goggling and guessing.

As I stated head of the Royal Mews horses and carriages on a practical level with 30 years service, youre half bright, you should be able to work it out without my help.

Why would I have listed an exact position on a thread that would have been meaningless to 99% of posters on here, except trainspotters like yourself ?


I will leave that to you.

Jawgap

cruasder777 wrote: »

Keep googling and guessing

As I stated head of horses and carriages on a practical level, youre half bright, you should be able to work it out without my help.

Well to be honest, the organisational chart and Establishment Lists I have in front of me show the Master of the Horse to be head of the Royal Mews (the role you claimed your uncle fulfilled).

Below the Master is the Crown Equerry (described as the operational manager) for the Mews - and below him is the Superintendent.

Reporting to the Super are the Vet (I assume you're uncle is not a vet or maybe he was when he was in the Hussars); the Horsebox Driver (Windsor); the 2 Stud Grooms; the Comptroller of Stores; and the Chief Clerk.

Are you saying your uncle was the Crown Equerry, who organises and manages the Mews on day-to-day basis?

Oh dear, caught out again! Any sign of those P-Company photos? Maybe your uncle ha them!

Señor Fancy Pants

cruasder777 wrote: »

Keep goggling and guessing.

As I stated head of horses and carriages on a practical level, youre half bright, you should be able to work it out without my help.

Why would I list an exact position on a thread that would be meaningless to 99% of posters on here, except trainspotters like yourself ?


I will leave that to you.

If you bring it up, you back it up. Seems to be a trend with you.

Now hush, how's about you sit back, relax and think of some new things that the MOD should introduce.

*quick steps out of thread, thumbs pointed down, elbows locked out, shoulders rolled back, chest out, head and chin up, eyes front, toes pointed forward, knees up with thighs parallel to the ground*

cruasder777

Truffle Pig wrote: »

If you bring it up, you back it up. Seems to be a trend with you.

Now hush, how's about you sit back, relax and think of some new things that the MOD should introduce.

*quick steps out of thread, thumbs pointed down, elbows locked out, shoulders rolled back, chest out, head and chin up, eyes front, toes pointed forward, knees up with thighs parallel to the ground*

Obviously such things are impossible to prove on the net, I have never regarded it as a big deal.

Further I have given my uncles military background, if I give his exact role, it will ID him, if goggled with a picture. Which is not wise with ongoing connections to the republic.

Señor Fancy Pants

cruasder777 wrote: »

Obviously such things are impossible to prove on the net, I have never regarded it as a big deal.

I am referring to all your *claims*, not just your current one.

Ta ra pet.

Jawgap

cruasder777 wrote: »

Obviously such things are impossible to prove on the net, I have never regarded it as a big deal.

Further I have given my uncles military background, if I give his exact role, it will ID him.

It's quite easy actually.

The lists are in the London Gazette and the Court Circulars are available online.

So far I've looked at all the Crown Equerries - only one had any connection with any regiment of Hussars - and that was Sir Dermot McMurrough Kavanagh - a descendant of the Leinster King - are you claiming to be part of that family?

When I get a chance I'll go through the superintendents.

cruasder777

Truffle Pig wrote: »

I am referring to all your *claims*, not just your current one.

Ta ra pet.

All true, I do drink occasionally in the SFC, just around the corner from Harrods and did do p coy at 17 and passed, but was never a member of the Parachute regiment.

Keep guessing

Jawgap

cruasder777 wrote: »

All true, I do drink occasionally in the SFC, just around the corner from Harrods and did do p coy at 17 and passed, but was never a member of the Parachute regiment.

Keep guessing

......and to that list we can now add the 'fact' that you are - by your own suggestion - a member of an aristocratic family that may or may not be able to trace it's lineage back to pre-Norman Ireland.......

.......did you adopt the moniker "crusader" to honour your noble ancestors

Señor Fancy Pants

cruasder777 wrote: »

All true, I do drink occasionally in the SFC, just around the corner from Harrods and did do p coy at 17 and passed, but was never a member of the Parachute regiment.

Keep guessing

Keep guessing? Guessing what?

Oh fcuk, you actually think I give a fiddlers about you, your claims and your life? Ha deadly.

Right, I'm really gone this time. Toodle pip.

Oh on topic. I do agree that a greater ceremonial presence should be adopted here. Not in the gaudy sense you see by the redcoats and thier big fluffy hats (not a dig and not meant to cause offence to anyone, just don't know the unit title or name of the hat....no interest in knowing either so don't bother educating me)

I have to say, I'm loving the fact that Jawgap is familiar enough with a niche area to counter act someone's claims. Sometimes I do enjoy popping in here

Now, it's time for me to do 8 billion press ups.

cruasder777

Truffle Pig wrote: »

Keep guessing? Guessing what?

Oh fcuk, you actually think I give a fiddlers about you, your claims and your life? Ha deadly.

Right, I'm really gone this time. Toodle pip.

Oh on topic. I do agree that a greater ceremonial presence should be adopted here. Not in the gaudy sense you see by the redcoats and thier big fluffy hats (not a dig and not meant to cause offence to anyone, just don't know the unit title or name of the hat....no interest in knowing either so don't bother educating me)

I have to say, I'm loving the fact that Jawgap is familiar enough with a niche area to counter act someone's claims. Sometimes I do enjoy popping in here

Now, it's time for me to do 8 billion press ups.

The Guards regiments are hardly gaudy :rolleyes:

Such ignorance.

lol you claim to be a soldier. obviously this thread has got your back up.


Go and learn some drill and basic fitness.

riffmongous

Something similar to what they have at Prague Castle would be a good idea I think, not too flashy but popular with the tourists

IrishTrajan

Truffle Pig wrote: »

Oh on topic. I do agree that a greater ceremonial presence should be adopted here. Not in the gaudy sense you see by the redcoats and thier big fluffy hats (not a dig and not meant to cause offence to anyone, just don't know the unit title or name of the hat....no interest in knowing either so don't bother educating me)

Coldstream, Grenadiers, Scots, Irish and Welsh Guard Regiments of Foot.

cruasder777

Big fluffy hats are worn by "ladies" at the races, bearskins are worn by Guardsman.

cruasder777

If the defence forces developed a drill school, it could have a unit which could raise its profile around the world on a tiny budget.


The best option is to copy the Queens colour Squadron RAF regiment, drill from the manual, no special maneuvers, done to perfection with perfect kit.


I really dont like flash drill units twirling rifles like majorettes.

ChicagoJoe

cruasder777 wrote: »

If you go to any European capital you see the militaries of the said countries performing a full time ceremonial role at places/buildings of significance.

Except in Ireland.

It would be nice to see the army and air corps having this role in a few designated places, good for tourists too. Also raise the profile.

Heres the aer corps performing a ceremonial. And blatantly ripping off the RAF regiment, lol. But thats a compliment.

And doing a fairly decent job, the drill could be sharper, I think raising the knee higher would look better, the arm raised higher when marching looks crisper, defence forces drill looks a bit too relaxed, the hand on the hips when aligning/dressing looks like mincing (1 min), the hand lower down, not on the hip, looks better, the belts on some look sloppy, and get rid of the sling, it serves no purpose. The defence forces needs a few drill Sgts if such a role happened . Such duties would be good all round.

and at 5 mins 55secs, court mounting the medals with buckram would prevent them jingling. and blackey segs on soles of shoes create a much better sound effect.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-t2kEaIY6wA


And civvys should nor be allowed to walk through the ceremony when its taking place.

Trojan horse thread

Again the Brits biggest fan boy cruasder777 is up to his little agenda by starting a thread critical of the Irish DF’s and appearing to give an alternative which is always the super, duper Brits of course (RAF regiment in this case ). Then of course goes on to laud the Brits posts 7, 9, 12, 16, 21, 24, 27 as wonderful in every aspect and the most professional military machine possible blah, blah. And of course joined in by more of our unionist friends and Walts such as Jawgap, pablomakaveli, tac foley etc

I wouldn't claim to be an expert but the Aer Corps guys are doing fine, I can't see anything particularly different or poor about it from any other military ceremony you'd see on tv when Obama or Micheal D arrives in some country. As Manic Moran says they probably have better things to be doing. It's not everyone who wants to prance around Buckingham Palace dressed in a stupid over sized hat in an equally stupid bright red uniform looking like a pompous d!ck etc

ChicagoJoe

cruasder777 wrote: »

3o secs, a great method of getting civilians out of the way.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpieDsRJAts

Oh dear, that's the most interesting extraordinary Youtube military video anyone could ever have seen......... ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

Besides that bullsh!t, I always find the French Foreign Legion's marching and singing intriguing. Adds a sort of mystique and mystery to one of the world's best known regiments.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMnDyJZ2ygw

Not that I approve of their brutality but you have to hand it to the German Wehrmacht, the bast@rds were impressive

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsOdaGIXpBo

Jawgap

ChicagoJoe wrote: »

Trojan horse thread

Again the Brits biggest fan boy cruasder777 is up to his little agenda by starting a thread critical of the Irish DF’s and appearing to give an alternative which is always the super, duper Brits of course (RAF regiment in this case ). Then of course goes on to laud the Brits posts 7, 9, 12, 16, 21, 24, 27 as wonderful in every aspect and the most professional military machine possible blah, blah. And of course joined in by more of our unionist friends and Walts such as Jawgap, pablomakaveli, tac foley etc

I wouldn't claim to be an expert but the Aer Corps guys are doing fine, I can't see anything particularly different or poor about it from any other military ceremony you'd see on tv when Obama or Micheal D arrives in some country. As Manic Moran says they probably have better things to be doing. It's not everyone who wants to prance around Buckingham Palace dressed in a stupid over sized hat in an equally stupid bright red uniform looking like a pompous d!ck etc

I'm not sure how you get......

(a) that I agree with the OP
(b) I'm a unionist
(c) I was unfavourably comparing the DF and the British Armed Services in how they fulfill their ceremonial roles



I did suggest that we take something we're known the world over for - our fine horses - and combine them with something else the DF are known for - their consistently high standard of horsemanship - to mount a guard that would be meangingful at the Gardens of Remembrance while adding to the 'offering' of the city centre.

Are you suggesting a dozen black chargers making their way down O'Connell Street wouldn't be a positive addition to the city and a great 'advertisement' for the DF.

And there's no need to opt for the funny furry hats etc - the current uniform used for Escort of Honour duties could be used. Basically, the Cavalry Corps would trade their bikes for horses



Plus I think the Defence Forces showed they can do 'ceremonial' to an extremely high standard during the State Visit in 2011......

cruasder777

ChicagoJoe wrote: »

Trojan horse thread

Again the Brits biggest fan boy cruasder777 is up to his little agenda by starting a thread critical of the Irish DF’s and appearing to give an alternative which is always the super, duper Brits of course (RAF regiment in this case ). Then of course goes on to laud the Brits posts 7, 9, 12, 16, 21, 24, 27 as wonderful in every aspect and the most professional military machine possible blah, blah. And of course joined in by more of our unionist friends and Walts such as Jawgap, pablomakaveli, tac foley etc

I wouldn't claim to be an expert but the Aer Corps guys are doing fine, I can't see anything particularly different or poor about it from any other military ceremony you'd see on tv when Obama or Micheal D arrives in some country. As Manic Moran says they probably have better things to be doing. It's not everyone who wants to prance around Buckingham Palace dressed in a stupid over sized hat in an equally stupid bright red uniform looking like a pompous d!ck etc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5sCaZZm340

Heres the first 90 secs of ....."27 Infantry Battalion perform ceremonial drill at the National Memorial, Merrion Square "

Firstly rope rail needed to separate public and give it a more official feel....

1) 10 secs, Officers uniform obviously too tight Jacket too short, trousers about to split, creased at back behind knees from sitting down :rolleyes:

2) 12 secs,..Poor command voice... DLIPS: Distinctness, Loudness, Inflection, Projection, and Snap.....Is how drill commands should be given.

3) 14 secs Soldier far right, trousers creased.

4) 14 secs obese Soldier second left boots not bulled (they dont even look polished), trousers too short.

5) 14 Secs Soldier second left Belt in wrong position.

6) 1.10 secs Sgt, lanyard wrong position, worn incorrectly.

7) 1.22 secs, Sgt, trousers incorrect length.

8) 1.25 drill movement, present arms, out of synch.

9) 1.29 soldier furthest from camera medals jingling/clinking, incorrectly mounted.

.......Thats the first 90 secs watching a video.

And this is a national commemoration :eek:


.....No drill school or drill sergeants...thats the poor turn out and drill you can expect. There is no excuse for the simple drill done at national commemorations not being done to a decent standard. And turn out not being like below :

Look at the boots


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUmTDMtRZQk

tac foley

http://www.brixmis.co.uk/photos/detained.html

Walt?

I think not.

tac

Jawgap

tac foley wrote: »

http://www.brixmis.co.uk/photos/detained.html

Walt?

I think not.

tac

Was this a wrong turn? Or where you just unlucky to be spotted?

tac foley

We were driving past the column drawn up at the roadside, 'liaising' [wink-wink], with Benny driving like a madman, me calling kit into my recorder, and Major Chris in the back doing what anybody in the back would do, when the ****ers got the grade-crossing operator to close the gates in front of us, by which time the truck you can see, a GaZ-66 comms vehicle, and the BTR-60PA[CMD] - the eight-wheeled thing you can see top left with the HAND RAIL antenna, had joined it to force us off the highway and into the muddy field. Even though we had 4WD, it could not cope with two feet of gloop.

We were there for almost eight hours, being as nonchalant as we could, given the circumstances. The local Kommandatura UaZ-452 arrived with 'Smiler' in it, and we were finally allowed to go after correctly refusing to sign the Akt - a document in which we would admit to spying. I'm looking p*ssed off because I just overheard the two guys to my front discussing using a crowbar on the trunk while our attention was on the release procedures. Only the tour officer - here the late and much-missed Chris hughes - was supposed to be a Russian speaker, but.........

The result of the liaising was a few hundred coup shots of a brand new item of artillery-associated kit - the new BTR-60 Arty Assoc Cmd Vehicle, so like most everything we did, it was well-worth the effort and pain of having to piss in a plastic bag.

The photo, taken by a Sov, appeared out of nowhere about three years ago. On the strength of this tour I got commissioned in August 1984. and retired in 2000.

It was, without any doubt at all, the very best time I ever had in the Army.

Anybody else - you might care to read about it - the unit was called BRIXMIS.

tac

Jawgap

tac foley wrote: »

........
Anybody else - you might care to read about it - the unit was called BRIXMIS.

tac

Just browsing Steve Gibson's book "Live and Let Spy" about BRIXMIS - interesting stuff!

tac foley

Tony Geraghty's book 'Beyond the Front line' is also a good read, although opinions differ about some of the details in it.

tac

John Mongo

IrishTrajan wrote: »

What really rustles my jimmies, is how the Irish Army does marches. They don't really march in step, they just try to swagger around. I can understand that it seems a superfluous request, but I would quite like to see the Army actually marching in tandem like every other First World country does.

You've quite literally just made that up.

That statement isn't even close to the truth.

Ren2k7

We don't need pomp and ceremony, we need a functional and equipped Irish Defence Force that can carry out its mission in the most efficient and effective manner possible. Soldiers in funny hats don't help them do that. Certainly for special occasions like a yearly 1916 remembrance ceremony but little else beyond that.

cruasder777

Ren2k7 wrote: »

We don't need pomp and ceremony, we need a functional and equipped Irish Defence Force that can carry out its mission in the most efficient and effective manner possible. Soldiers in funny hats don't help them do that. Certainly for special occasions like a yearly 1916 remembrance ceremony but little else beyond that.

Who mentioned pomp ? Your attitude is all wrong, its not about the most efficient/effective its about being able to do it as near perfection as possible, if that takes three months on the drill sq 8 hours a day and kit alterations being done by the battalion tailor(if there is one, the Guards and QCS have one, who alters kit to perfection),to get kit looking perfect so be it. You are representing your nation in front of the world.

No pomp, just a unit of soldiers who can do drill to a decent standard, Officers and NCO's who can give drill commands and soldiers who can turn out to a decent standard. I'm not seeing that.

Bearskins are not pomp, they are part of something called tradition. The honor to wear them was won in battle. Nobody has suggested the defense forces do ceremonial like the Guards or wear bearskins.


Heres the video of the ceremonial for the Queens visit, its not HD, but even from afar I can see averagely turned out kit, even on officers and poor drill. I could rip it apart. But Im being nice :-)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHFVNQa39S0

Manic Moran

cruasder777 wrote: »

Heres the video of the ceremonial for the Queens visit, its not HD, but even from afar I can see averagely turned out kit, even on officers and poor drill. I could rip it apart. But Im being nice :-)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHFVNQa39S0

You're also, frankly, being a tad annoying. If the British can afford to spend the time doing 8 hours a day doing drill, and have their own tailor, good for them. I'm sure the Old Guard have similar time and effort available to them before they go out on public display in Arlington every day. Then again, they do the minimum of field time.

Remember the old adage: No battle-ready unit ever passed inspection. No inspection-ready unit ever passed combat. There is a little truth to that.

cruasder777

Manic Moran wrote: »

You're also, frankly, being a tad annoying. If the British can afford to spend the time doing 8 hours a day doing drill, and have their own tailor, good for them. I'm sure the Old Guard have similar time and effort available to them before they go out on public display in Arlington every day. Then again, they do the minimum of field time.

Remember the old adage: No battle-ready unit ever passed inspection. No inspection-ready unit ever passed combat. There is a little truth to that.

Annoying because my point of view is different ? Disagree, the whole point of drill originally was to install an attention to detail that would be passed on in things like weapons training etc. The Guards and RAF Regiment have combat records second to none, ceremonial is just part of what they do and is rotated. Suggesting the defense forces have a unit capable of doing ceremonial to a high standard with the logistics to back that up is quite logical. The problem is they don't see a problem with their standard of ceremonial, drill and turnout, hence why I showed how it could look more professional. If they cant deal with constructive criticism so be it.

tac foley

Manic Moran wrote: »

You're also, frankly, being a tad annoying. If the British can afford to spend the time doing 8 hours a day doing drill, and have their own tailor, good for them. I'm sure the Old Guard have similar time and effort available to them before they go out on public display in Arlington every day. Then again, they do the minimum of field time.

Remember the old adage: No battle-ready unit ever passed inspection. No inspection-ready unit ever passed combat. There is a little truth to that.

You all seem to be missing the point. In the British Army, the personnel that you see performing public duties are also full-time soldiers who spend 'some' of their time performing public duties. ALL the Household Division have spent time in Iraq and 'stan, and recently too. In 2009 the CO of the Welsh Guards was killed by an IED.

In direct contrast to some nations, whose ceremonial guards do little or nothing else, ALL of the British Army's troops seen on ceremonial duties are also soldiers. Likewise, the occasional 'visiting' ceremonial military, like the Royale 22iéme Régiment du Canada, the Brigade of Gurkhas, or the Royal Air Force can be seen on duty at Buckingham Palace.

tac

PS - @ MM - ALL British military units, especially the infantry have a unit tailor, doncha know.

PPS - just in case there is some confusion here about the difference between ceremonial duties and active service, I suggest that the battle honours of the Household Division are looked at.

Ren2k7

cruasder777 wrote: »

Who mentioned pomp ? Your attitude is all wrong, its not about the most efficient/effective its about being able to do it as near perfection as possible, if that takes three months on the drill sq 8 hours a day and kit alterations being done by the battalion tailor(if there is one, the Guards and QCS have one, who alters kit to perfection),to get kit looking perfect so be it. You are representing your nation in front of the world.

No pomp, just a unit of soldiers who can do drill to a decent standard, Officers and NCO's who can give drill commands and soldiers who can turn out to a decent standard. I'm not seeing that.

Bearskins are not pomp, they are part of something called tradition. The honor to wear them was won in battle. Nobody has suggested the defense forces do ceremonial like the Guards or wear bearskins.


Heres the video of the ceremonial for the Queens visit, its not HD, but even from afar I can see averagely turned out kit, even on officers and poor drill. I could rip it apart. But Im being nice :-)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHFVNQa39S0

No, that's precisely what pomp and ceremony is. The Brits can do what they like but quite frankly we have no need for such frivolities, especially at a time when out forces are so chronically underfunded. Perhaps when we have a DF that matches the requirements of the nation's defence and security needs we can come back to this. But right now we have more important things to deal with in our military.....like beefing up our air and naval assets. You know, actual military stuff.

cruasder777

Ren2k7 wrote: »

No, that's precisely what pomp and ceremony is. The Brits can do what they like but quite frankly we have no need for such frivolities, especially at a time when out forces are so chronically underfunded. Perhaps when we have a DF that matches the requirements of the nation's defence and security needs we can come back to this. But right now we have more important things to deal with in our military.....like beefing up our air and naval assets. You know, actual military stuff.

All armies do ceremonial, claiming you dont is not true as is claiming drill and ceremonial are not military activities.