Insuring my first car: Car in dad's name and second named driver on his insurance?

mynameispaul

So basically I'm asking about the pros and cons of:

* Putting the car in my name, and being first-name-driver

V.S.

* Putting it in my dad's name, and being second-named-driver on his insurance?

I'm in my mid 20s, on a provisional licence (having completed my lessons) and I need my own car to get to work. (The alternative is a 5 hour commute on Dublin Bus)
I can afford to buy a reliable, albeit not very fancy car, maintain it, fuel it etc but the insurance is really stretching my budget.
I've been quoted well over €2,000 for the year to be the first named driver on my own car, as a provisional driver (and these are cheap, small, reliable, 1 liter cars like..)
My dad has suggested I put the car in his name, become a second-named-driver on his insurance, and just drive my car that way.
Being a second named driver on his insurance sounds like it would be a lot cheaper... can anyone tell me why this wouldn't work? Is it allowed? Is it insurance fraud? Would it cost just as much?
Basically, it sounds too good to be true... if it's that easy, why doesn't every young man with their own car just do that?

Stheno

It will probably not be much cheaper.

Also what you are proposing is called fronting and frowned on by insurance companies
does your father already have a car?

bazz26

Insurance companies have wised up to "fronting" so these days they will just load the highest risk driver on the policy no matter whether they are the policy holder or just a named driver.

Also another thing to note about being added as a named driver on your dad's policy is that if there is a claim made against you then it's your dad's NCB that can be impacted as it's his policy that is being claimed against. If he has another policy on his own car then this can also be impacted as he has to inform that insurance company of the claim too.

At the end of the day you will eventually have to get a policy of your own in order to build up your own NCB. This is how you prove to insurance companies that you are a low risk by having a policy of your own for x number of years without a claim. Insurance is expensive for everyone at the beginning so it's down to whether you want to suck up the high initial cost now or at a later stage. Insurance will only then start getting cheaper.

mynameispaul

Stheno wrote: »

It will probably not be much cheaper.

Also what you are proposing is called fronting and frowned on by insurance companies
does your father already have a car?

Yeah, he's already insured on his own car, and has a really big no claims bonus, so his insurance is like a couple hundred a year.

mynameispaul

bazz26 wrote: »

Insurance companies have wised up to "fronting" so these days they will just load the highest risk driver on the policy no matter whether they are the policy holder or just a named driver.

Also another thing to note about being added as a named driver on your dad's policy is that if there is a claim made against you then it's your dad's NCB that can be impacted as it's his policy that is being claimed against. If he has another policy on his own car then this can also be impacted as he has to inform that insurance company of the claim too.

At the end of the day you will eventually have to get a policy of your own in order to build up your own NCB. This is how you prove to insurance companies that you are a low risk by having a policy of your own for x number of years without a claim. Insurance is expensive for everyone at the beginning so it's down to whether you want to suck up the high initial cost now or at a later stage. Insurance will only then start getting cheaper.

Yeah the point is really that I want to suck it up at a later stage. Right now I just need to get to work.

How much of a difference would this actually make in cost though?

Say I'm getting quoted 2200 for a car in my own name, with me as first named driver

versus a car in my dad's name, that's ~300 per year now, how much would adding me to that policy up the cost?

slimjimmc

Well for a start, if you're driving while not accompanied by a full licence holder you are in breach of your learner permit conditions and many insurers take issue with that no matter if you're on your own policy or your father's.

Insurance policies generally require the policy holder to be the main driver and the person with an insurable interest in the car (e.g. legal owner or in a lease/hire purchase contract). Failing to declare this information or being dishonest could have serious consequences especially if someone claims against the policy.
Insurance companies are wise to what your father is proposing and will usually quote based on the highest risk driver (you). In addition your father is unlikely to use his NCB on more than one policy so it'll cost him more in the first place.

jimmycrackcorm

How do you propose getting to work driving on a provisional license? Is your dad going to accompany you and sit outside all day until you finish work?

Stheno

mynameispaul wrote: »

Yeah the point is really that I want to suck it up at a later stage. Right now I just need to get to work.

How much of a difference would this actually make in cost though?

Say I'm getting quoted 2200 for a car in my own name, with me as first named driver

versus a car in my dad's name, that's ~300 per year now, how much would adding me to that policy up the cost?

Probably not much less than what you've been quoted for yourself get some quotes online and see

mynameispaul

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

How do you propose getting to work driving on a provisional license? Is your dad going to accompany you and sit outside all day until you finish work?

Sure.

Noccy_Mondy

People say that insurance companies load based on the highest risk driver, and there's nothing in the difference between that and getting your own policy. I know of young lads, and family members who are setting out on permits. Taking one for example, lad on his own, has licence a year, was getting a quote of 1,900. Puts mammy as the main driver and it drops to 900. This was the end of last year. You need to be careful if this is the route you go. There's lots of clauses, such as your dad can't be the main driver of two cars etc. It differs between companies. If money is tight then going this way might be the best for a year or so. Be careful about going out driving on your own, gardai have clamped down on this, not something I'd advise. Do your test asap and then you can drive freely.

mgbgt1978

Your Father can only use his no-claims discount on one policy.
If he was to take out a 2nd policy (as you suggest) then he will have zero no-claims on that policy. He would have to start from scratch and build up a 2nd no-claims discount.

And as already mentioned what you are proposing is called 'Fronting' and Insurers will spot this one a mile away as your Father already has a policy in force.

What's the car, op?
Those quotes seem high?

I started out at 24 with a 1.4 litre Focus hatchback and my quote (third party only) was 1,309 exactly (chill.ie).

Maybe a change of car might help you out?

(I'm 26 now, so that was only two years ago). I also only had a provisional.


I have a friend, he started at the same age (I think.. Maybe 23) in a 206 and despite the smaller engine size, he was paying more than me (we lived in the same place, etc.).

Maybe the focus is looked at as low risk or something? Could be worth taking a reg plate off one for sale, and running it by your Insurance company? Just to see...?

mynameispaul

[Deleted User] wrote: »

What's the car, op?
Those quotes seem high?

I started out at 24 with a 1.4 litre Focus hatchback and my quote (third party only) was 1,309 exactly (chill.ie).

Maybe a change of car might help you out?

(I'm 26 now, so that was only two years ago). I also only had a provisional.


I have a friend, he started at the same age (I think.. Maybe 23) in a 206 and despite the smaller engine size, he was paying more than me (we lived in the same place, etc.).

Maybe the focus is looked at as low risk or something? Could be worth taking a reg plate off one for sale, and running it by your Insurance company? Just to see...?

I was quoted 2300 in a ford focus from chill.ie (I think it was a 1.2).
I'd kill for 1300! I'm also 24. No idea why it's so much.

Mycroft H

mynameispaul wrote: »

I was quoted 2300 in a ford focus from chill.ie (I think it was a 1.2).
I'd kill for 1300! I'm also 24. No idea why it's so much.

You've no driving licence, that's why. Who's going to insure you cheaply on a learner permit

amtc

Don't. You'll never build up a Ncb and hence it'll never reduce your insurance...first question is what is ncb in own name.

Mind you there are weird things with insurance. I am 41 and have my own insurance since 20. However last year it went up (no claims) so the AA suggested I added someone to my policy as a named driver, so I added my mother. She has no claims but doesn't drive my car...we're in different countries....and the price dropped to below 300 euro ...nearly 120 off. I then added my friend...who doesn't drive at all...and another 40 off! This was with Allianz.

mullingar

Breaching the T&C or a learners permit is very serious.

The bottom line is you MUST have a licenced driver with you to forfil the terms of your learner permit. A leaner permit is NOT a licence. Without a licenced driver with you, you technically have NO licence therefore NO insurance.

I have heard a few stories that some newly qualified drivers had their premiums mushroom when they qualified, simply because they are only now legally able to drive on their own.

lollsangel

Would AXA drivesafe policy be of aby use to you. Friend of mine got a fairly decent quote for her son on it.

mynameispaul

Mycroft H wrote: »

You've no driving licence, that's why. Who's going to insure you cheaply on a learner permit

Go away. He specifically said he was on a provisional as well.

corktina

your Father ought to bear in mind that if you crash, his NCB is at risk on his own car

Mycroft H

mynameispaul wrote: »

Go away. He specifically said he was on a provisional as well.

A learner permit is not a licence.

mynameispaul

mullingar wrote: »

Breaching the T&C or a learners permit is very serious.

The bottom line is you MUST have a licenced driver with you to forfil the terms of your learner permit. A leaner permit is NOT a licence. Without a licenced driver with you, you technically have NO licence therefore NO insurance.

I have heard a few stories that some newly qualified drivers had their premiums mushroom when they qualified, simply because they are only now legally able to drive on their own.

I really appreciate your reply, but the real bottom line is that I need to get to work and can't afford to lose my job.

I (and my certified driving instructor) am confident that I'm a safe driver. It's only for a month or so until I have enough road experience to confidently sit the test without just throwing away money on the fees.

corktina

I'd rather you stayed off the roads until you pass your test , i 'm not happy sharing roadspace with unqualified drivers. If you're a safe driver, then do your test,

Mycroft H

Mycroft H wrote: »

A learner permit is not a licence.

mynameispaul wrote: »

Go away. He specifically said he was on a provisional as well.

Yeah, Mycroft: It was me that said I got a €1,309 quote off chill, with no driving experience, and only a learner permit.


A friend of mine started driving there about two months ago (if even that). He's 29, I believe, and is in a 04 Punto that he picked up for about €900. His insurance is around the 2k mark, too (also on a learner permit).

I'm not sure why my quote was so competitive, to be honest, compared to what other people seem to be getting.

corktina wrote: »

I'd rather you stayed off the roads until you pass your test , i 'm not happy sharing roadspace with unqualified drivers. If you're a safe driver, then do your test,

He did. He got his learner permit. Therefore he is qualified to drive a car on the public roads.


It's mad that, although I'm not the most experienced driver, with only two years under my belt, and having only travelled about 30,000km, I've still yet to be cut off, aggressively overtaken, or drove out in front of by an L driver.

But yet all of the above have happened, numerous times, by 'qualified' drivers.

Worst I ever see is cutting out at traffic lights. Jeez, them L drivers really are a danger, on the roads. :rolleyes:

Noccy_Mondy

Oh lord KKV, what have you done! You'll have them off now :P

corktina

so you are saying L drivers on permits are better than qualified drivers?

mgbgt1978

mullingar wrote: »

Breaching the T&C or a learners permit is very serious.

The bottom line is you MUST have a licenced driver with you to forfil the terms of your learner permit. A leaner permit is NOT a licence. Without a licenced driver with you, you technically have NO licence therefore NO insurance.

I have heard a few stories that some newly qualified drivers had their premiums mushroom when they qualified, simply because they are only now legally able to drive on their own.

He would be covered by insurance. They might try to recoup the costs of any claim made on his policy but they would have to pay out initially. That's like saying that any damage caused by a drunk driver is not covered because drink driving is against the law. It's simply not the case.
This is in no way condoning what the OP is suggesting, just pointing out that his insurer would have to pay out in the event of a claim.

mynameispaul

amtc wrote: »

Don't. You'll never build up a Ncb and hence it'll never reduce your insurance...first question is what is ncb in own name.

Mind you there are weird things with insurance. I am 41 and have my own insurance since 20. However last year it went up (no claims) so the AA suggested I added someone to my policy as a named driver, so I added my mother. She has no claims but doesn't drive my car...we're in different countries....and the price dropped to below 300 euro ...nearly 120 off. I then added my friend...who doesn't drive at all...and another 40 off! This was with Allianz.

There's 0 no claims bonus in my own name. I've only driven in my driving instructors' cars.

mynameispaul

lollsangel wrote: »

Would AXA drivesafe policy be of aby use to you. Friend of mine got a fairly decent quote for her son on it.

Don know anything about AXA drive safe. Can you give me the gist?

corktina

corktina wrote: »

so you are saying L drivers on permits are better than qualified drivers?

Substitute word "better" for "safer", and I'd probably agree.


I'd also be interested to see figures (if there are any?) of number of crashes/deaths caused by learner drivers VS drivers holding a full license.

mynameispaul

mynameispaul wrote: »

Don know anything about AXA drive safe. Can you give me the gist?

The idea is that they put a 'black box' in your car that tracks you and your driving. They can see if you're speeding, have lots of sudden stops, or 'racey' take offs, etc.

The idea being that the 'safer' you are, the less you should pay.


The reality of it is they're a business out to make profits. So it'd seem to me that they'd use this information to penalise you in any possible way.

For example, where I live, there's a road that has a speed limit of 50kp/h. If you actually did this speed on the road, you'd be beeped off it and gave abuse. It's a fairly busy road and even buses travel about 60-65 on it.

If you kept with the flow of traffic, Axa would have you down as speeding every day of the week. Thus you'd be a higher risk.

They're not spending money putting a box in your car so they can lose money on insuring you. It's in their interest to get as much money out of you as they can, so they'll do whatever they can to charge as much as they can.

All you're doing is giving them an opportunity to turn around and say "well, actually, you're quite high risk! So you're new quote is..".



(that's all just in my opinion, of course. I wouldn't let an insurance company track me, no matter how cheap they were).

mynameispaul

corktina wrote: »

I'd rather you stayed off the roads until you pass your test , i 'm not happy sharing roadspace with unqualified drivers. If you're a safe driver, then do your test,

I appreciate what you're saying. Honestly I'd prefer to have another option really, but I don't.

If it makes you feel any better, I am qualified to drive on public roads - I've studied the rules of the road, I've passed the theory test, I've spent hundreds on professional driving lessons. Frankly I'd say I've taken learning to drive orders of magnitude more seriously than my peers and previous generations. I don't take the privilege lightly.

If I was even *close* to the biggest danger you faced on the roads, you would be a lot safer.

All I'm doing different is driving to work for a few months until I can (A) get an appointment for the test and (B) have the road experience to lads it confidently, which I'd need to do anyway.

So yeah, sh'up you.