Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2015 Mod Note in OP 9/4

Agent Coulson

So will this be the another summer at rebuilding the team bringing in 5/6 players so how long will it take to bed those players in?


The manager needs to get off to a good start next season this whole after Christmas manager needs to end.

SlickRic

It's quite simple.

Keep rolling the dice on 'could bes' or pay up for some players that will definitely make a difference.

Look at Utd in 2014s transfer windows..

Yes, we haven't quite got their resources, but the principle can be the same, only instead of buying all of Mata, di Maria, Blind and Falcao, maybe even buy one or 2 of those calibre.

That's ignoring the fact they went out and hired a winner in LVG (I'm not even close to saying that Rodgers should be sacked, it's more an example of Utd's mentality).

Pyjamarama

Agent Coulson wrote: »

So will this be the another summer at rebuilding the team bringing in 5/6 players so how long will it take to bed those players in?


The manager needs to get off to a good start next season this whole after Christmas manager needs to end.

I agree that he needs to do better pre Christmas but by the same token it's unfair then to expect him to do as ridiculously good post christmas again.

Charlie19

With no distraction of an international tournament during the summer, Rodgers will have a bit of extra time in preparation for the new season.

The optimism is starting to build.

Gbear

SlickRic wrote: »

It's quite simple.

Keep rolling the dice on 'could bes' or pay up for some players that will definitely make a difference.

Look at Utd in 2014s transfer windows..

Yes, we haven't quite got their resources, but the principle can be the same, only instead of buying all of Mata, di Maria, Blind and Falcao, maybe even buy one or 2 of those calibre.

That's a much bigger risk for us.

Utd basically are doing what we are writ large - youngsters who aren't quite ready to deliver yet, some who've slotted in pretty well, gambles, "established" players not delivering.

They'll have roughly the same success rate with signings. The difference is that they're spending 25m on average while we're spend 12.
That and they had 2 world class players in Rooney and De Gea as well as the remnants of title winning sides who mightn't be as good as they once were or capable of carrying a side but are in and around top 4 quality.

The smaller number of signings you get, the higher the variance in success/failure.

You can absorb that if you already have a quality team, but if we signed Di Maria for 60m or whatever and he had as little impact as he's had for Utd we'd have been left with no squad and no quality.

Sometimes you can afford to risk quality over quantity but I don't think last summer was the time to do it.

Next summer, we could sign 2 players and even if they make no impact we'll still have what it takes to be and around CL qualification.
Signing lots of players next summer would make no sense because we'd have nowhere to put them.

That, of course, is leaving aside the fact that the higher the calibre of player the less likely they are to come here, but I don't think we're any worse a proposition for those sorts of players than we were last summer.
We're still an outside bet with a worse squad and more modest long term prospects. Finishing on par rather than well above ourselves doesn't change the overall state of the club.

brevity

Charlie19 wrote: »

With no distraction of an international tournament during the summer, Rodgers will have a bit of extra time in preparation for the new season.

The optimism is starting to build.

Everyone knew that there was a tournament, why go out and buy so many players and make it hard for us to prepare?

Unless there is a drastic change in how we do business, I'm really not seeing the optimism I'm afraid

gosplan

Agent Coulson wrote: »

So will this be the another summer at rebuilding the team bringing in 5/6 players so how long will it take to bed those players in?


The manager needs to get off to a good start next season this whole after Christmas manager needs to end.

In fairness there was a lot for everyone to adjust to pre-Christmas.

Get Chelsea and take out Costa and Hazard and see what kind of a start they make.

Jesus Wept

SlickRic wrote: »

5th, in reality, is where we should finish given the resources of all the respective clubs.

The problem is, last season's overachieving provided us with a platform to kick on, and actually try to compete consistently with the big boys.

We had a choice. We keep going, unwavering, in the moneyball model, or try to supplement it with at least some proven top quality.

We're paying the price now for very safe decision making.

If you wanted exclusively moneyball tactics in the transfer market, you cannot bitch and moan if we win nothing and finish 5th. Our current model dictates that that will be the norm, unless Rodgers actually is the incredible coach, every year, that the owners want him to be.

There is nothing money ball about spending quite high amounts of cash on ****e to midtable players like Lazar and Allen.

SlickRic

The Rodgers wrote: »

There is nothing money ball about spending quite high amounts of cash on ****e to midtable players like Lazar and Allen.

It is.

We bought Lazar in the hope that he'll be worth a lot more in a few years. He's a regular international from when he was a teenager.

Allen is just Rodgers' love child. I'll concede there was nothing really moneyball about that.

gosplan

http://www.lfchistory.net/Transfers/ByManager/25-1

24 players for 211 million.

For me Sturridge, Coutinho, Can and Mignolet have worked out.

There's a lot of 'miss' there.

But ... With Henderson, Skertl and Sterling, that's 7 out of a first 11 that are good and very young too.

These Americans really need to cop on and realise that money ball doesn't apply. Sell those good players in a few years and you'll have to buy 24 more to replace them.

We aren't that far from having a decent team.

Striker and keeper are the obvious holes in the team, especially strikers.

Yakult

I think the foundations have been set for a great team in the coming years, if we can bring in a few more experienced "star" players we could push on even more and quicker than waiting for the starlets to flourish.
A new striker, midfielder, defender and goalkeeper are needed badly and I will be disappointed to see us buy a rake of young promising players again. One or two great players would transform this team in a feared team, striker and midfield being priority IMO.

Charlie19

brevity wrote: »

Everyone knew that there was a tournament, why go out and buy so many players and make it hard for us to prepare?

Unless there is a drastic change in how we do business, I'm really not seeing the optimism I'm afraid

We had a very thin squad and the number of players brought in was needed, the mistake Rodgers made was trying to bed so many of them in at once. I'd imagine he's learnt from that and if he could do it over again, he would try and bed them in gradually.

Well that's my take on it anyway.

Bobby Baccala

I agree that Liverpool are a team that are only 2-3 top quality players away from being excellent, but it's gonna be hard to attract those type of players to Liverpool given the fact that yous won't be in the champions league next year. The likes of Jackson martinez or Cavani would stay put with the guarantee of champions league football and trophies every year rather than go to Liverpool on a whim

Fowler87

I know alot of people have no time for him but thought it was a decent article by Mr Tomkins..

http://tomkinstimes.com/2015/04/were-all-gonna-die/

Lets buy all the Emre Cans

jesus_thats_gre

rarnes1 wrote: »

There'll be 4 teams with better squads next season too. That excuse is lame tbh and it's one we could use every season.

It's up to the management to overcome this and spend money on the correct players.

If we had spent money on a decent striker I have no doubt we'd be better off than we are now.

Ballotelli and Lambert were brought in and Borini recalled. Talk about starting the season handicapped. Our best spell probably involved playing a non striker up front.

A keeper and at least 2 strikers are needed this summer.

It's a cop out to be honest. Those sort of stats tend to be valid over long periods of time too.

We know why we are in 5th place. It isn't because we have the 5th highest wage bill or anything similar. We have spent a significant amount of money and wasted the majority of it on the wrong players.

Gbear

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

It's a cop out to be honest. Those sort of stats tend to be valid over long periods of time too.

We know why we are in 5th place. It isn't because we have the 5th highest wage bill or anything similar. We have spent a significant amount of money and wasted the majority of it on the wrong players.

You're simply wrong.

Our success rate is similar to our rivals.

We spend less.
We pay less.

It's not complicated.

Shanotheslayer

Gbear wrote: »

You're simply wrong.

Our success rate is similar to our rivals.

Clearly not.

Gbear

Shanotheslayer wrote: »

Clearly not.

If a team signs 10 players and 5 of those are success, they have a 50% success rate. How much the total outlay was isn't relevant - that's a completely different argument and beyond the scope of the people in charge of signings.

Which teams in the league consistently outperform us in the transfer market?

Utd, who I presume are running away with the league after investing £200m in 2 years?

City, who've spent a billion quid to make no changes to their first 11 of note in 3 years?

Arsenal, who with one hand sign some brilliant attackers and with the other, utterly neglect their defence and midfield?
They'd be a club that'd I'd consider to have the least variance in how well their signings perform - they're mostly fine like Podolski and all that. But they seldom excel in the value for money stakes either.

Who was the last player they signed as a relatively unproven player and went on to be world class? They've a few here and there no doubt - Van Persie, or Henry if you want to go back further, and closer to today, the likes of Ramsey have been great investments, but the ultimate litmus test are how the team actually performs and they're perennially disappointing in the league and CL despite being pretty efficient in the market.

It's fine for Chelsea to be able to con their way around FFP by building a ludicrously large base of players to pick the best from and fund their other signings with, but we've missed the boat on such a scheme even if we had a billionaire to fund it.

Spurs have stood still despite everything they've forked over and they've the same problem we do - it's great to be able to get decent players or get the odd bargain like Eriksen but they're just not fishing with the dynamite the top 4 are.

below that you've got teams yo-yoing up and down season after season with budgets and calibres of players that aren't really relevant to us.

LuckyLloyd

We had a platform from which we should have been able to establish ourselves. We squandered it.

I am quite unsure at this point why people are assuming we'll win the cup / finish fifth. A few games left to play and the City game is over a month in the rearview mirror. Securing a EL spot is not a trivial task, lots of work to be done.

gosplan

Gbear wrote: »

If a team signs 10 players and 5 of those are success, they have a 50% success rate. How much the total outlay was isn't relevant - that's a completely different argument and beyond the scope of the people in charge of signings.

Which teams in the league consistently outperform us in the transfer market?

Utd, who I presume are running away with the league after investing £200m in 2 years?

City, who've spent a billion quid to make no changes to their first 11 of note in 3 years?

Arsenal, who with one hand sign some brilliant attackers and with the other, utterly neglect their defence and midfield?
They'd be a club that'd I'd consider to have the least variance in how well their signings perform - they're mostly fine like Podolski and all that. But they seldom excel in the value for money stakes either.

Who was the last player they signed as a relatively unproven player and went on to be world class? They've a few here and there no doubt - Van Persie, or Henry if you want to go back further, and closer to today, the likes of Ramsey have been great investments, but the ultimate litmus test are how the team actually performs and they're perennially disappointing in the league and CL despite being pretty efficient in the market.

It's fine for Chelsea to be able to con their way around FFP by building a ludicrously large base of players to pick the best from and fund their other signings with, but we've missed the boat on such a scheme even if we had a billionaire to fund it.

Spurs have stood still despite everything they've forked over and they've the same problem we do - it's great to be able to get decent players or get the odd bargain like Eriksen but they're just not fishing with the dynamite the top 4 are.

below that you've got teams yo-yoing up and down season after season with budgets and calibres of players that aren't really relevant to us.

Some stuff I'd disagree with here but in the whole it's a very relevant point.

The ultimate indicator of where you'll finish is what you spend and pay.

At the highest level, this kind if advantage is very rarely overcome unless you've basically spent 'enough' like Utd, City & Chelsea.

People love throwing massive expectations on their team but it just doesn't happen that often.

How many times has a club gotten into the CL above someone that was outspending them?

Spurs once? Everton once? Pool this year?

It's this carry on like it's some god given right or reasonable expectation. It's all 'X's' fault we didn't do something rediculously difficult two years in a row'.

5th is a fine season for Liverpool. They didn't over or under-perform, which is good considering the transition going on.

Harry Palmr

Zidane is stirring the pot!

"We know who Raheem Sterling is, and of course we are monitoring him as a player," Zidane told the Daily Mail.

"There are very few players in the world who can improve the Real Madrid squad, so it is going to make sense we monitor the progress of the best young players in the world.

"We monitored [Gareth] Bale for over a year, the same with Isco and also [Raphael] Varane.

"We monitor many of the best young players in Europe, then if we feel they have something to offer Real Madrid we will contact their club and try and make the next step."

Read more at http://www.fourfourtwo.com/news/zidane-real-are-monitoring-sterling#z1zsAwUFl5DIybRD.99

Kerrigooney

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

We had a platform from which we should have been able to establish ourselves. We squandered it.

I am quite unsure at this point why people are assuming we'll win the cup / finish fifth. A few games left to play and the City game is over a month in the rearview mirror. Securing a EL spot is not a trivial task, lots of work to be done.

Are people assuming we'll win the cup? Haven't seen it.

ebbsy

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Zidane is stirring the pot!

Pay us 80m then for him you bald French headbutter.

Agent Coulson

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Zidane is stirring the pot!

"We monitored [Gareth] Bale for over a year, the same with Isco and also [Raphael] Varane.

Well i'd give them £30m and Sterling for Isco & Varane that sounds a fair deal to me.

shamrock55

If we win 5he cup does that guarentee uefa cup football?, i reall y dont want us to be in that damb cup id rather finish 8th then be in that fcuking thing next year

Hollister11

shamrock55 wrote: »

If we win 5he cup does that guarentee uefa cup football?, i reall y dont want us to be in that damb cup id rather finish 8th then be in that fcuking thing next year

Europa League*. Ye, they start the tournament in the group stage.

Mr Alan

shamrock55 wrote: »

If we win 5he cup does that guarentee uefa cup football?, i reall y dont want us to be in that damb cup id rather finish 8th then be in that fcuking thing next year

Being in Europe (even Europa) makes us more attractive to players. And at the moment there's not a lot attractive about us.

We should be getting in at & then try our best to win it next season. If our team/manager isn't capable of doing that for whatever reason, we've got bigger problems.

rossie1977

liverpool have spent £220m or thereabouts under rodgers

how much would they make if they sold everyone of those players tomorrow...i personally couldn't see them even recouping half what they paid.

and no 5th is not a fine season for liverpool. this is the weakest top division in england for a long time and liverpool sit one point ahead of southampton who sold half their team last summer. if 5th (and no trophies most likely unless there is a mark robins around) was considered good three years and nearly a quarter of million pounds into a managerial reign the bar has been set very low for a once great club

Kirby

Agent Coulson wrote: »

Well i'd give them £30m and Sterling for Isco & Varane that sounds a fair deal to me.

But would either move to a team outside the champions league at this stage? Unlikely. Isco perhaps could be persuaded for a ton of money and a guarantee of a starting place but there is no way Varane is leaving Madrid unless its to somebody playing at the highest level.

Agent Coulson

If the club aren't going to take playing in Europe seriously there is no point in being in it.

If we had taken the Europa League seriously we might still be in with a shout of CL football next season.

Agent Coulson

Agent Coulson wrote: »

If the club aren't going to take playing in Europe seriously there is no point in being in it.

If we had taken the Europa League seriously we might still be in with a shout of CL football next season.

We did take it pretty serious I thought? We were just not good enough.

Harry Palmr

loan watch update

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Todays games

S. Ojo

---

Wigan Unused sub - manager sacked
João Carlos----Brighton last 10 mins in 1-0 defeat
J. Williams

---

Notts - unused sub
K. Stewart

---

Burton Albion - full game in 1-0 win
D. Ward

---

Morecambe - full game in 1-2 win
L. Jones

---

Accrington - full game in 3-1 win

Hopefully the back of mckay will mean Ojo gets more game-time, of course it could simply mean the end of his loan.

ricero

rarnes1 wrote: »

We did take it pretty serious I thought? We were just not good enough.

If I remember correctly he dropped a few key players for the return leg against besiktas for the city game which was on the Sunday.

Jesus Wept

SlickRic wrote: »

It is.

We bought Lazar in the hope that he'll be worth a lot more in a few years. He's a regular international from when he was a teenager.

Allen is just Rodgers' love child. I'll concede there was nothing really moneyball about that.

Yea but he won't be. He isnt worth what we paid for him as he is.

Harry Palmr

Besiktas v Liverpool match details

http://int.soccerway.com/matches/2015/02/26/europe/uefa-cup/besiktas-jk/liverpool-fc/1974641/?ICID=PL_MS_28

Kerrigooney

rossie1977 wrote: »

liverpool have spent £220m or thereabouts under rodgers

how much would they make if they sold everyone of those players tomorrow...i personally couldn't see them even recouping half what they paid.

and no 5th is not a fine season for liverpool. this is the weakest top division in england for a long time and liverpool sit one point ahead of southampton who sold half their team last summer. if 5th (and no trophies most likely unless there is a mark robins around) was considered good three years and nearly a quarter of million pounds into a managerial reign the bar has been set very low for a once great club

This line is getting trotted out every year.

LuckyLloyd

shamrock55 wrote: »

If we win 5he cup does that guarentee uefa cup football?, i reall y dont want us to be in that damb cup id rather finish 8th then be in that fcuking thing next year

That dumb ****ing thing that offers another route to the CL?

Anyone who wants Rodgers to continue definitely shouldn't want us to finish 8th as that type of tail off from here would make his position untenable.

LuckyLloyd

Kerrigooney wrote: »

This line is getting trotted out every year.

European performance supports it for this season as an accurate statement.

ricero

ricero wrote: »

If I remember correctly he dropped a few key players for the return leg against besiktas for the city game which was on the Sunday.

Mignolet; Toure, Lovren, Skrtel; Ibe, Can, Allen, Moreno; Sterling, Balotelli, Sturridge.

Should have been good enough to get a draw.

We went out on pens too which can happen anyone.

Hollister11

rossie1977 wrote: »

liverpool have spent £220m or thereabouts under rodgers

how much would they make if they sold everyone of those players tomorrow...i personally couldn't see them even recouping half what they paid.

and no 5th is not a fine season for liverpool. this is the weakest top division in england for a long time and liverpool sit one point ahead of southampton who sold half their team last summer. if 5th (and no trophies most likely unless there is a mark robins around) was considered good three years and nearly a quarter of million pounds into a managerial reign the bar has been set very low for a once great club

We would get around £175 million back in my opinion.
Taking into account Coutinho would fetch around 30, and Sturridge around 25.

Will I Amnt

Hollister11 wrote: »

We would get around £175 million back in my opinion.
Taking into account Coutinho would fetch around 30, and Sturridge around 25.

Who would buy Sturridge for 25m with his injury history?

LuckyLloyd

Agent Coulson wrote: »

If the club aren't going to take playing in Europe seriously there is no point in being in it.

If we had taken the Europa League seriously we might still be in with a shout of CL football next season.

Think we were trying against Besiktas. Just weren't good enough to get through against side that was tonked by Club Brugges in the next round. Our European performance needs to seriously improve. Hasn't been acceptable since 2010.

Harry Palmr

Will I Amnt wrote: »

Who would buy Sturridge for 25m with his injury history?

Oh come on - Arsenal! who else? :pac:

Osmosis Jones

I get that some people see the Europa League as a distraction but with the CL position up for grabs it has to be taken seriously. With the inexperienced squad and manager we have there is a lot to learn from next season's EL campaign.

Charlie19

Osmosis Jones wrote: »

I get that some people see the Europa League as a distraction but with the CL position up for grabs it has to be taken seriously. With the inexperienced squad and manager we have there is a lot to learn from next season's EL campaign.

Well not being in it last year definitely helped towards our good league form, but you're right in saying that the squad along with Rodgers could do with the experience of how to set up in two leg fixtures.

Osmosis Jones

Charlie19 wrote: »

Well not being in it last year definitely helped towards our good league form, but you're right in saying that the squad along with Rodgers could do with the experience of how to set up in two leg fixtures.

Yeah, we'll need the experience of playing in Europe if we want to make an attempt at doing well in the CL the year after anyway.

Iused2likebusts

city losing 1 0 but playing very well. If it stays that way 7 behind city and 8 behind utd and one of them has to drop points next week so the gap if we won would be 4 or 5 pts to one of them.

Kerrigooney

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

European performance supports it for this season as an accurate statement.

I didn't realise we were battling European teams to get top 4.

Relative to other European teams yes the league is poorer but relative to other premier league teams it's the same as it always was and always will be.

Harry Palmr

The Europa League could be a decent training ground for the likes of Ibe, Can, Markovic, (and yes I'm aware he helped get Benfica to one final already!) Ilori, Moreno, Origi and the most promising Academy players (Ojo, Rossitter, Williams, Philips, Wilson). Balancing the PL and EL is the trick