Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2015 Mod Note in OP 9/4

S. Goodspeed

I think Klopp would be mad to come to Liverpool personally. It is a significantly harder role than the one he is leaving, fans demand a regular title challenge (at minimum) even though the club hasn't done that since the very early 90s and has to compete against 4 wealthier clubs (2 of which have a pretty limitless budgets but for FFP).

Within 6 months of the last two times the club mounted a serious title challenge (2009 and 2014) a significant portion of fans were calling for the manager to be sacked. Its mind boggling!

Vicxas

Vicxas wrote: »

..... players don't need to be coddled 24/7, some need a kick up the arse.

He gave Mig, sakho, balotelli & borini firm arse kicks and was criticised for it

Talisman

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Ah now neither you nor I know which players are the work of who, such is the fog that surrounds the transfer policy. Yes we can name Allen as a Rodgers buy but how many others can we be sure of?

The leaks to the media about the transfer committee complete with quotes from unnamed sources came from the Rodgers camp, I think it's a fair assumption given the reaction of Ian Ayre. The transfer committee can work if it is an accepted part of the club structure.

Rodgers has done nothing to demonstrate he should be allowed sole control of transfers - wanting to offer Jordan Henderson in part exchange for Clint Dempsey should be enough evidence of that. In addition to Joe Allen, Fabio Borini and Dejan Lovren are also certainly Brendan Rodger's players. Assaidi, Sturridge, Sakho and Balotelli were not.

noodler

Whats in it for FSG if we keep missing the top 4 though?

Genuine question.

noodler

noodler wrote: »

Whats in it for FSG if we keep missing the top 4 though?

Genuine question.

We got top 4 last year as you well know.

The balance sheet is all important to them, the bottom line. Ultimately selling the club on at a substantial profit is their aim imo, a few years of finishing 5th, profit every year & a bigger stadium could facilitate that.

They aren't dumb though so wouldn't voice that, end if the day, its business to them.

rob316

noodler wrote: »

Whats in it for FSG if we keep missing the top 4 though?

Genuine question.

There's another way to look at it too, why would you blow up the wage bill and spend £50m a season net on players to make back similar by qualifying for the CL? When you could chance your arm on lesser players and wages and hope you reach the golden goose of CL?

FSG is a hedge fund they answer to investors who want a return, this isn't about winning its a business. FSG would be happier with five years of continuous CL qualification and no trophies, than 2 years and 3 trophies.

Chelsea and Man City sack league winning managers because there owners don't care about a measly profit they want to win trophies.

Arsenal, Man United and us need to make money to please shareholders and investors. That's why Moyes was sacked last year and that's why Wenger was never sacked.

Football isn't what it used to be and some fans would do well to realise it.

Benimar

I'm not really sure where I stand on Rodgers to be honest. One minute I think he has huge potential, the next I wonder what he's at. Maybe yesterdays debacle is still too fresh but I wouldn't really mind whatever decision FSG make on him.

What would concern me is, no matter who the manager is, that they back him in the Summer. The squad needs strengthening in key positions and to keep Rodgers but hold back on investment to 'see where we are at Christmas' is the absolute worst case scenario and is essentially writing off next season already. If FSG feel they can't back Rodgers with funds then just leave him go now.

It's clear we need a new striker and midfielder in the summer, but what we need most of all is balls. There were absolutely none on display yesterday (or against Arsenal in another must win game recently). Yes, Suarez gave us goals last year but he also gave us an insatiable will to win. Could you imagine Suarez strolling around the pitch with 15 minutes to go, a goal down in a semi final like some yesterday??

Someone posted on here that we needed a Carragher or Kuyt yesterday to which they got a smart ass reply about them being 'world class'. The original poster was right, they may not have been 'world class' but neither player would accept defeat in the manner it came yesterday and all teams need players with that mentality. I'm not sure we have any at the moment.

We need to sign 'winners' - players who have done it before and won't accept that the other team is better (even if they are). I can handle being beaten by a better team, but abject performances in big games (first half v United, Arsenal and yesterday) is something I cannot stomach.

J Mysterio

NIMAN wrote: »

As a total neutral here (don't support any EPL club) I do find Rodgers slightly delusional in a lot of his post match comments.

He is the master of spin, or talking cr@p as I prefer to call it. He never seems to see the negative in any defeat and listening to his press appearances afterwards without knowing the scores, you'd think they won every game.

After yesterday's game he criticised the team.

smileyj1987

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Oh play another tune ffs. :rolleyes:

Agent Coulson, Brevity and myself have been high volume posters consistently over the past couple of years. I was here starting match threads, etc and having a grand old time with everyone else during the stretch last year.

Exactly everyone wants to see LFC do well !! No one wants to see the team fail and play like they in a semi final yesterday.

J Mysterio

We need another top CB and another Striker.

Harry Palmr

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

The FSG stuff is a problem but none of it is likely to change anytime soon. I guess it's part of what makes a guy like Benitez attractive - he would be constantly pushing and lobbying hard on the investment front. How hard has Rodgers pushed? How effectively has he pushed? Has he compromised himself in how he's managed players he didn't particularly want to begin with ala Balotelli?

Hard to see what bringing in a manager who would clash with the board/owners would achieve that is good! FSG will be aware of Benitez reputation for close control which is why they won't hire him. Klopp in the other hand has always worked in a more collegiate environment esp his close relationship with Michael Zorc.

Talisman

Talisman wrote: »

........
......Joe Allen, Fabio Borini and Dejan Lovren are also certainly Brendan Rodger's players. Assaidi, Sturridge, Sakho and Balotelli were not.

What about coutinho, can, lallana & origi?

Pyjamarama

I find it odd that people could expect instant results from our transfer strategy of signing young players with potential. The hope is that they grow together as a team and we push on. But that will take time, and sacking a manager who regardless of any criticism (many fair) can't be doubted in his ability to improve young players, seems madness to me.

BenEadir

Augeo wrote: »

We got top 4 last year as you well know.

The balance sheet is all important to them, the bottom line. Ultimately selling the club on at a substantial profit is their aim imo, a few years of finishing 5th, profit every year & a bigger stadium could facilitate that.

They aren't dumb though so wouldn't voice that, end if the day, its business to them.

The only two alternatives to "business" oriented ownership are:-

1. Fan ownership - It was a pity this didn't happen - http://www.shareliverpoolfc.co.uk. Would have been an interesting experiment. (I had signed up and would (probably) have ponied up the £5k to go along for the roller coaster ride and to pass the shareholding to my son etc more than in expectation that the experiment would be a success)

2. A rich oil/Chinese/Russian benefactor who toys with the club for a few years, interferes with football decisions, pisses off the fans, gets tired of being the butt end of abuse and/or just gets bored pouring millions into the club year after year and then walks away.

We might think FSG are all about business etc but they may well be the least worse option of the potential ownership options. We may well look back in a few years and marvel at how well FSG ran the club compared to the incumbent. We should be careful what we wish for.

BenEadir

BenEadir wrote: »

..........
We might think FSG are all about business etc but they may well be the least worse option of the potential ownership options. We may well look back in a few years and marvel at how well FSG ran the club compared to the incumbent. We should be careful what we wish for.

I think they are doing very well, a few years back we'd all (aside from a minority) have taken what we have now imo.

The stadium expansion is a huge development for the club, fair play to FSG for getting us here, they deserve lots of credit for that.

They aren't football folk though.

joe123

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Oh play another tune ffs. :rolleyes:

Agent Coulson, Brevity and myself have been high volume posters consistently over the past couple of years. I was here starting match threads, etc and having a grand old time with everyone else during the stretch last year.

Wasn't really aiming it at anyone in particular but you know yourself there are plenty of people around here who go very quiet when times are good and then pop up again calling for heads to roll.

Anyways its been done to death all that.

LuckyLloyd

rob316 wrote: »

So what will we gain by dumping Rodgers? If DeBoer, Rafa or Klopp are given the same players what makes you think we wont finish 5th season on season.
We almost won the title last year because we had the 2 best strikers in the league possibly even Europe. We lost that we didn't replace it. Why? because players like that to buy come with big wages. If we had replaced with the same quality we would have had a similar season.

End of the day you finish where you deserve, the 4 above us in the league can compete on another level entirely.

I'm not anti-FSG but the manager is not the issue here, its the policies in place at the club.

In the post of mine you quoted:

" here and my conclusion is that this is probably a good time for all parties to break the relationship. We need a manager who is able to overcome our limitations and it primarily requires an ability to tactically outfox opponents in the crunch games consistently and have an above average hit rate with the transfer resources made available. My feeling is that this summer may provide a unique opportunity to attain a manager who does better on those points given the high level of flux likely to occur."

joe123

Talisman wrote: »

The leaks to the media about the transfer committee complete with quotes from unnamed sources came from the Rodgers camp, I think it's a fair assumption given the reaction of Ian Ayre. The transfer committee can work if it is an accepted part of the club structure.

Rodgers has done nothing to demonstrate he should be allowed sole control of transfers - wanting to offer Jordan Henderson in part exchange for Clint Dempsey should be enough evidence of that. In addition to Joe Allen, Fabio Borini and Dejan Lovren are also certainly Brendan Rodger's players. Assaidi, Sturridge, Sakho and Balotelli were not.

You nor I can possibly know who were and weren't Rodgers signings.

He should take blame and credit for all signings even if they are committee signings or whatever mad set up they have going on.

At the end of the day, it will be Rodgers who takes the credit/falls on the sword so there's no point speculating to suit one agenda or another.

Talisman

rob316 wrote: »

FSG is a hedge fund they answer to investors who want a return, this isn't about winning its a business.

You really believe that?

LuckyLloyd

S. Goodspeed wrote: »

I think Klopp would be mad to come to Liverpool personally. It is a significantly harder role than the one he is leaving, fans demand a regular title challenge (at minimum) even though the club hasn't done that since the very early 90s and has to compete against 4 wealthier clubs (2 of which have a pretty limitless budgets but for FFP).

Within 6 months of the last two times the club mounted a serious title challenge (2009 and 2014) a significant portion of fans were calling for the manager to be sacked. Its mind boggling!

I'm not sure that's true. I think Liverpool fans demand the club be in the top four and carrying through to be a factor in European competition alongside a trophy every few years. I was more than willing to accept 4th and a post Christmas CL exit for example. We've fallen short of the minimums though despite a great platform to start the season. That's the problem.

Benitez and Rodgers suffered very poor seasons post title challenge for differing reasons. It's counter intuitive but many seem willing to give Rodgers a pass because he has less time in the role and experience when I think it should have been the opposite - i.e. Benitez had done it five years of six; whereas Rodgers has done it one year of three.

the kelt

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

The Kelt: great post this morning.

I suppose I am in the manager out camp, but my position is slightly more nuanced than it may appear. I screamed about him being a chancer, etc at times during his first season and I was wrong in all of that. Overall, while I think he hasn't done a good enough job and I don't believe he's going to take us forward he's definitely done okay overall and has demonstrated an ability to get a side playing great attacking football. Hodgson was a disaster, Rogers is obviously a million miles away from that and it's important to retain a sense of perspective about how managers are doing in relative terms.

I'm trying to look forward at potential scenarios of where we go from here and my conclusion is that this is probably a good time for all parties to break the relationship. We need a manager who is able to overcome our limitations and it primarily requires an ability to tactically outfox opponents in the crunch games consistently and have an above average hit rate with the transfer resources made available. My feeling is that this summer may provide a unique opportunity to attain a manager who does better on those points given the high level of flux likely to occur.

The FSG stuff is a problem but none of it is likely to change anytime soon. I guess it's part of what makes a guy like Benitez attractive - he would be constantly pushing and lobbying hard on the investment front. How hard has Rodgers pushed? How effectively has he pushed? Has he compromised himself in how he's managed players he didn't particularly want to begin with ala Balotelli?

Im in the "careful what you wish for" camp.

People get too emotionally attached to players and managers and fail to see the bigger picture. For example certain people still wont hear a bad word said about Rafa when great and all as he was he still had flaws. The same with Rodgers, i think he has done a good job but has flaws. Every manager does and every manager will. But because of that emotional attachment the job just gets harder and harder.

The problem is if Rodgers goes then who replaces him, as ive said in a further post anyone thinking its going to be a world class manager is deluding themselves. Thats not how FSG operate. Id hedge a bet that it will be another manager with the potential to be world class. Forget Rafa, Klopp or the likes, they would demand too much power for FSG's likening when they get a potentially good manager in who is willing to work under certain constraints.

So what do we have then, realistically its 2 or 3 season for a new manager to get us challenging at the top in Europe and The Premier League. Do we start again with another 3 year plan? Will the fans give the manager that time?

In an ideal world we could bring in world class manager like Ancelottior Klopp and give him the freedom and funds to get us back to the top but thats not going to happen, we dont have that luxury.The FSG model will see another potentially good manager coming in and starting all over again with the fans turning on him comparing him to Rodgers and rafa etc.

If i had faith in FSG to bring the Club forward, to appoint the right people, to set the right systems in place, to back the manager correctly with the right wage structure etc then i wouldnt care less about Rodgers being sacked or not.

My fear is he will be sacked and we will just have the same again only this time a few years further down the line.

As long as FSG keep their current system in place it will be players and managers with the potential to be great rather than just getting in the great players and manager to start with.

Does that mean Rodgers should keep his job, im not so sure but there seems to this ground swell belief that we are going to get a world class manager in to replace him and will be good with the world, im sorry to say i dont see that happening, not even a remote chance of it. Until FSG change their model of running the Club this is it im afraid!

Talisman

Augeo wrote: »

What about coutinho, can, lallana & origi?

What about them? Is it your intention to pigeon hole each player as a Rodgers/Committee signing? I listed the signings that can be with some level of certainty attributed to Rodgers, and others that we know were not.

LuckyLloyd

Pyjamarama wrote: »

I find it odd that people could expect instant results from our transfer strategy of signing young players with potential. The hope is that they grow together as a team and we push on. But that will take time, and sacking a manager who regardless of any criticism (many fair) can't be doubted in his ability to improve young players, seems madness to me.

Unfortunately Sterling looking to get out when he's on the cusp of coming through the whole way shakes my faith in the plan as we all understand it.

There is also the other side though, the fact that we were at the level we wanted to be last year; spent big; went backwards.

Talisman

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

There is also the other side though, the fact that we were at the level we wanted to be last year; spent big; went backwards.

But we weakened the team and padded out the squad.

JohnDaniels

Lucas made 10 tackles during the Newcastle game on his own. Allen, Gerrard and Henderson made one each for a total of three against Aston Villa. We wonder why we were dominated in midfield.

LuckyLloyd

Talisman wrote: »

But we weakened the team and padded out the squad.

I agree, but it's hard right now to conclude the squad is any stronger than it was this time last year. Still lots of gaping holes and depth issues despite a high level of investment.

That is the big problem I think and I said it yesterday: three years in with reasonable backing in transfer fees and the squad still needs a lot of work.

MD1990

Lovren's shot yesterday was like Aspas's corner vs Chelsea.

Harry Palmr

JohnDaniels wrote: »

Lucas made 10 tackles during the Newcastle game on his own. Allen, Gerrard and Henderson made one each for a total of three against Aston Villa. We wonder why we were dominated in midfield.

Not a shock, Gerrard only seemed to get into the game late on. Hendo is a runner not a tackler. I posted about this before when playing three in the middle the ideal set up consists of the breaker/tackler, the recycler/passer and the runner/shooter. Take out Lucas and the whole thing falls apart.

DVDM93

MD1990 wrote: »

Lovren's shot yesterday was like Aspas's corner vs Chelsea.

The ball just flew past my window there.

rob316

Talisman wrote: »

You really believe that?

Doesn't matter its a business, they aren't in it for the love of LFC, they already have the Red Sox to fulfil their sporting passion.

What do you believe so?

Jon Stark

MD1990 wrote: »

Lovren's shot yesterday was like Aspas's corner vs Chelsea.

I am not a Lovren fan at all but at least he had the neck to try something, while the ones with the actual attacking talent were cowering.

Vicxas

Jon Stark wrote: »

I am not a Lovren fan at all but at least he had the neck to try something, while the ones with the actual attacking talent were cowering.

This, at least he tried something.

Chucky the tree

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

The FSG stuff is a problem but none of it is likely to change anytime soon. I guess it's part of what makes a guy like Benitez attractive - he would be constantly pushing and lobbying hard on the investment front. How hard has Rodgers pushed? How effectively has he pushed? Has he compromised himself in how he's managed players he didn't particularly want to begin with ala Balotelli?

The problem is this is the reason a guy like Benitez would never be hired in the first place.

niallo27

JohnDaniels wrote: »

Lucas made 10 tackles during the Newcastle game on his own. Allen, Gerrard and Henderson made one each for a total of three against Aston Villa. We wonder why we were dominated in midfield.

Is this right. I remember Gerrard winning the ball at least 3 times yesterday with decent tackles.

J Mysterio

FSG have done a stand up job this far imo.

Pyjamarama

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Unfortunately Sterling looking to get out when he's on the cusp of coming through the whole way shakes my faith in the plan as we all understand it.

There is also the other side though, the fact that we were at the level we wanted to be last year; spent big; went backwards.

We're not part of the elite anymore. We will lose players and then try to replace them with potential. The hope is that when we have a bigger stadium and can pay more wages then we'll be able to get back to the level we all want the club to be at. I don't think the strategy we currently employ is perfect but unless we're going to change our transfer policy then I see no reason to get rid of the manager.

JohnDaniels

niallo27 wrote: »

Is this right. I remember Gerrard winning the ball at least 3 times yesterday with decent tackles.

I am looking at the stats on whoscored.com for the game.

Jon Stark

My last post just made me realise what it was that pissed me off yesterday: how cowardly the performance was, and unfortunately it's been a hallmark of this season.

It was something that was a hallmark of Rodgers' first season as well but the team seemed to sort it out last season, showing great resilience to still beat the likes of Man City after losing a 2 goal lead and eking out tight wins when the pressure was really on like against Fulham.

That fight and belief has just evaporated unfortunately.

rossie1977

Only man utd and chelsea these past 3 years have spent more money than brendan rodgers (and they both have league titles to show for it). the way people talk its like liverpool have been rubbing noses with the evertons and newcastles of this world in the transfer market since 2012.

rodgers had his 3 years, didn't win anything and its time to move on. give gary monk 3 years, £220m and the most on form player in world football and i doubt he does worse

DVDM93

Well it would seem that some have a... different... view on that Lovren shot. Jesus... I've seen some daft **** on Liverpool fan pages on Facebook.

https://www.facebook.com/LiverpoolFansForum/videos/675507339228043/

super_furry

rossie1977 wrote: »

Only man utd and chelsea these past 3 years have spent more money than brendan rodgers (and they both have league titles to show for it). the way people talk its like liverpool have been rubbing noses with the evertons and newcastles of this world in the transfer market since 2012.

rodgers had his 3 years, didn't win anything and its time to move on. give gary monk 3 years, £220m and the most on form player in world football and i doubt he does worse

And this is what Rodgers has done with all that money.

Talisman

Talisman wrote: »

What about them? Is it your intention to pigeon hole each player as a Rodgers/Committee signing? ...

Not all all, seems to be what you were at though

Talisman wrote: »

I listed the signings that can be with some level of certainty attributed to Rodgers, and others that we know were not.

The some level of certainty is interesting, can replace that with "imo" and to be fair it's not worth sh1t.

NukaCola

super_furry wrote: »

And this is what Rodger's has done with all that money.

We signed Cissokho, Moses and Sahin permenantly?

Talisman

rob316 wrote: »

Doesn't matter its a business, they aren't in it for the love of LFC, they already have the Red Sox to fulfil their sporting passion.

What do you believe so?

From your posts I believe you're just mouthing off about the owners - "their sporting passion" WTF? FSG stands for Fenway Sports Group, they invest in sport and Liverpool FC is the largest element of the conglomerate.

super_furry

NukaCola wrote: »

We signed Moses and Sahin permenantly?

Spent money on bringing them to the club, even if it was only for a season. Moses loan fee to Chelsea was £1million.

NukaCola

super_furry wrote: »

Spent money on bringing them to the club, even if it was only for a season. Moses loan fee to Chelsea was £1million.

True.

Well, he sold 130m worth of players. Is it too early for net spend?

Harry Palmr

super_furry wrote: »

And this is what Rodgers has done with all that money.

My own ratings!

Talisman

Talisman wrote: »

From your posts I believe you're just mouthing off about the owners - "their sporting passion" WTF? FSG stands for Fenway Sports Group, they invest in sport and Liverpool FC is the largest element of the conglomerate.

Do you understand the concept of an investment?
Serious question as you are mentioning you reckon someone is mouthing off when they've consistently stated they reckon FSG are running Liverpool as a business.

They are also American, Red Sox, baseball ......... sporting passion, makes sense to me.

Liverpool, buy at a sensible price, stabilise, increase earnings, cut costs, invest in stadium to ensure future increase in earnings.... yu know invest

rob316

Talisman wrote: »

From your posts I believe you're just mouthing off about the owners - "their sporting passion" WTF? FSG stands for Fenway Sports Group, they invest in sport and Liverpool FC is the largest element of the conglomerate.

Far from it, they have been great for the club but I'm sure you can agree their policies are holding back the club on the pitch.

Take the emotion out of it and look it from a business point of view, anyone who doesn't believe its a business first and foremost is delusional and should go support City, Chelsea, Barca, PSG or Real.

They are an investment firm which is a hedge fund, their goal is to make money for their investors. They love the Red Sox and baseball not LFC and soccer.

Buford T. Justice XIX

rob316 wrote: »

So what will we gain by dumping Rodgers? If DeBoer, Rafa or Klopp are given the same players what makes you think we wont finish 5th season on season.
We almost won the title last year because we had the 2 best strikers in the league possibly even Europe. We lost that we didn't replace it. Why? because players like that to buy come with big wages. If we had replaced with the same quality we would have had a similar season.

End of the day you finish where you deserve, the 4 above us in the league can compete on another level entirely.

I'm not anti-FSG but the manager is not the issue here, its the policies in place at the club.

I am on record as backing Rodgers but he has shown certain deficiencies in his management that are a cause of concern. The almost complete lack of defensive coaching(i'm going to include Morenos lack of positional awareness in this, which may not be fair), the not playing of Borini in games where we lacked any striker before christmas, the 'sicknesses' of Balotelli when he appeared to be getting aware of his responsibility in closing down defenders and then being dropped etc,etc. The blame for not having a decent striker to fill in for Sturridge is wholly on FSG, though, and they appear to not learn from a similar mistake in Rodgers first season.

I would be happy with 2 purchases this year, a good striker(and also Origi) and a DM to cover/alternate with Lucas. Anything else is a bonus in my eyes and anything less is unforgiveable.

super_furry wrote: »

And this is what Rodgers has done with all that money.

NukaCola wrote: »

We signed Cissokho, Moses and Sahin permenantly?

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Teixeira was brought in January 2012 so before Rodgers.

Manquillo is on loan also.