Qatar 2022 Mayhem

Kirby

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

These events rely on local fans to fill the seats in the stadiums

There are not enough people in Qatar to fill those stadiums

And this is why the whole Qatar bid was a joke in the first place and should have been excluded at the first rejection phase.

So you think we'll see half empty stadiums?

Fr Tod Umptious

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

I read somewhere that 300,000 went to South Africa and half a million to Brazil, so that's what I was basing the figure on.

By mass amounts of people, I'm talking 15-20,000 average per country - that's still 20-30 thousand foreign fans to each match and about 300-400 thousand in total. This is what's needed to make it work.

If they get it, they won;t be able to moe them all fast enough around the country eve nthought it;s relavtiely small.

If they don't - and you cuold well be right - then it's a moot point anyway.

Yea those figures seem about right, 200K for SA possibly, and almost 600k for Brazil based on these figures for tickets sold

The link for Brazil also says that 1.3m tickets were sold in Brazil.

But Brazil and SA are far more attractive tourist destination than Qatar will ever be.
As they said on Off the Ball tonight, in Qatar you could possibly get to 3 games a day, but who exactly wants to do that, most want to go to their teams games and enjoy the sights/culture etc of the host nation the rest of the time.

Your not going to get avg. 15-20k fans from a lot of countries.
Places in Africa could not send anything like that amount of fans.

Fr Tod Umptious

Kirby wrote: »

So you think we'll see half empty stadiums?

Oh yea

the place only has a population of 3.3 million, it does not have enough interested people to fill stadiums.

I was at mexico v Croatia in Japan 2002 on a Monday afternoon, there were feck all Mexicans or Croats at it, the majority were locals, and the stadium was 80% full.
Japan has a population of over 120m

How are you going to get a 80% full stadium in a country of 3.3m ?

It just doesn't add up.

Muff_Daddy

Kirby wrote: »

So you think we'll see half empty stadiums?

Well, I think it's time we look at the positive here.



They'll be half full :-)

Kirby

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

How are you going to get a 80% full stadium in a country of 3.3m ?

I'll tell you how, they offer the tickets for free or even pay people to attend.

Lets not be fooled here, this is a vanity project. Its about building their reputation and looking good on a world stage. Empty stadiums looks awful on tv and makes headline news.

This is Qatar. They have the money for it, it wouldn't surprise me if they made sure the stadiums were full, whatever it took.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Yea those figures seem about right, 200K for SA possibly, and almost 600k for Brazil based on these figures for tickets sold

The link for Brazil also says that 1.3m tickets were sold in Brazil.

But Brazil and SA are far more attractive tourist destination than Qatar will ever be.
As they said on Off the Ball tonight, in Qatar you could possibly get to 3 games a day, but who exactly wants to do that, most want to go to their teams games and enjoy the sights/culture etc of the host nation the rest of the time.

Your not going to get avg. 15-20k fans from a lot of countries.
Places in Africa could not send anything like that amount of fans.

You're not goign to get to three games a day unless you have a helicopter.

15-20k is based on the average of the previous world cups. The fans came from somewhere and it's no easier or harder to get to Qatar as it is to get to Brazil from Europe. Probably easier from places in North Afrtica. Egyptians would manage it ok (if the qualify).

Giving tickets away will be noticed and reported, which would be just as damaging as having a half-empty stadium. Not sayign they won;t do it though.

Fr Tod Umptious

Kirby wrote: »

I'll tell you how, they offer the tickets for free or even pay people to attend.

Lets not be fooled here, this is a vanity project. Its about building their reputation and looking good on a world stage. Empty stadiums looks awful on tv and makes headline news.

This is Qatar. They have the money for it, it wouldn't surprise me if they made sure the stadiums were full, whatever it took.

Rough figures here.
48 group games at min 45000 per game is 2.16m people.
Take way 250000 visitors that leaves you with 1.91m seats to fill.
That's almost 60% of the countries population.
Free tickets or not that is just impossible.

Its amazing how collectively FIFA have just lost total and utter sense of reality when it comes to this farce.

Someone has to shout stop.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Rough figures here.
48 group games at min 45000 per game is 2.16m people.
Take way 250000 visitors that leaves you with 1.91m seats to fill.
That's almost 60% of the countries population.
Free tickets or not that is just impossible.

Its amazing how collectively FIFA have just lost total and utter sense of reality when it comes to this farce.

Someone has to shout stop.

That's assuming every fan goes to just one game.

Fr Tod Umptious

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

That's assuming every fan goes to just one game.

OK then let's assume every visitor goes to their countries three group games, that's 750000 seats filled.
You are still looking at 1.4 m to fill which is still huge.
That's about the same as were sold in Brazil, a country of 202m

Kirby

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

OK then let's assume every visitor goes to their countries three group games, that's 750000 seats filled.
You are still looking at 1.4 m to fill which is still huge.
That's about the same as were sold in Brazil, a country of 202m

Yes but tickets were expensive in Brazil. The local populace couldn't afford to go.

Qatar, being not concerned with profits, could pay for their slave plebs to go to the stadium. It's not the same situation.

Listen, I get what you are saying. But there is no way the brass are going to allow empty stadiums. It's just not going to happen. Groups will be bussed in, foreign fans will be given discounted tickets, etc. The commoners are handed flags on the way into the stadium, a few hundred attractive models are hired and bingo bango it all looks great on TV. It's all Optics.

tomaussie

Kirby wrote: »

So you think we'll see half empty stadiums?

No.

The construction workers that are still alive by the time all work is completed will be paid to fill the stadia. That may not be many people.

Small plastic flags will be provided for free but not sure how realistic the Russian 'supporters' (if the qualify) will look without whitening cream also being provided.

Fr Tod Umptious

Kirby wrote: »

Yes but tickets were expensive in Brazil. The local populace couldn't afford to go.

Qatar, being not concerned with profits, could pay for their slave plebs to go to the stadium. It's not the same situation.

Listen, I get what you are saying. But there is no way the brass are going to allow empty stadiums. It's just not going to happen. Groups will be bussed in, foreign fans will be given discounted tickets, etc. The commoners are handed flags on the way into the stadium, a few hundred attractive models are hired and bingo bango it all looks great on TV. It's all Optics.

And I get what you are saying.
I just think that the numbers involved are so big, or small depending on how you look at it, that no amount of bussing, free tickets etc will bridge the gap.

I hope it all works out, I'd love to be heading off for a long weekend to see a WC game in somewhere like Boston, New York or Atlanta

Zebra3

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

The two bits in bold will not happen.

World Cups in far flung places are not very well attended by visiting fans, anecdotal evidence suggests that the biggest set of fans at WC 2002 ere English and Irish, with many of those being ex-pats based in other parts of the world.
There was feck all from elsewhere

A WC in Qatar will not attract a whole lot of visiting fans, very few from Africa or South America will travel and less from Europe than somewhere like the US or even Japan would attract.
You will not have thousands of drunk Paddys in the main square of Doha like you had in the main square of Poznan.

These events rely on local fans to fill the seats in the stadiums

There are not enough people in Qatar to fill those stadiums

And this is why the whole Qatar bid was a joke in the first place and should have been excluded at the first rejection phase.

Far flung? Where is Qatar far flung from? The South Pole?

What makes you think Ireland will even qualify for the tournament or that a tournament without 1,000s of drunken Irish gobsh*tes is somehow missing something "magic"? :rolleyes:

Lovely Bloke

Qataris are richer though, and the Emir will just tell people they have to go to the games, or else.

LaGlisse

One of the worst attended tournaments I've ever seen was euro 96 held in the when football "came home"(lol) to England. Seem to recall an an awful lot of empty seats at that one. All the Qatari bashing is just an extension of the usual borderline racist colonial bashing of the natives ability to pull off running a tournament (see the run up to the last 2 world cups)

LaGlisse

Zebra3 wrote: »

Far flung? Where is Qatar far flung from? The South Pole?
:

Exactly, it's not like loads of south American fans travel over for European world cups,love the sudden concern people seem to have for African and south American fans travelling arrangements, yet in the next breath they'll say the tourney should have gone to Australia.
Wish people would just be honest and admit they want the tourney held in a nice white country full of people that look like them and that they hate arabs

SantryRed

LaGlisse wrote: »

Exactly, it's not like loads of south American fans travel over for European world cups,love the sudden concern people seem to have for African and south American fans travelling arrangements, yet in the next breath they'll say the tourney should have gone to Australia.
Wish people would just be honest and admit they want the tourney held in a nice white country full of people that look like them and that they hate arabs

Wow.

Talk about adding 1 + 1 and getting 10000000000000000000000000000000000.

Muff_Daddy

LaGlisse wrote: »

One of the worst attended tournaments I've ever seen was euro 96 held in the when football "came home"(lol) to England. Seem to recall an an awful lot of empty seats at that one.

You missed the South Africa World Cup then I take it.

If you're a soccer fan living in Ireland, then surly a football tournament staged in England affords you the most ideal opportunity to go and see it, save for actually hosting in Ireland (which I thought was impossible, but now I'm not so sure) so why would anyone living here activly object to England hosting a World Cup, like you so vehemently are.

It just seems like cutting off your nose to spite your face.

LaGlisse

Muff_Daddy wrote: »

You missed the South Africa World Cup then I take it.

If you're a soccer fan living in Ireland, then surly a football tournament staged in England affords you the most ideal opportunity to go and see it, save for actually hosting in Ireland (which I thought was impossible, but now I'm not so sure) so why would anyone living here activly object to England hosting a World Cup, like you so vehemently are.

It just seems like cutting off your nose to spite your face.

I like going to new countries and having new experiences. Qatar and Russia should fit the bill nicely.
Aside from England being a dump, I enjoy watching the English media throw their toys out of the pram when things don't go their way, watching them lose that wc bid was poetry

Leroy42

LaGlisse wrote: »

One of the worst attended tournaments I've ever seen was euro 96 held in the when football "came home"(lol) to England. Seem to recall an an awful lot of empty seats at that one. All the Qatari bashing is just an extension of the usual borderline racist colonial bashing of the natives ability to pull off running a tournament (see the run up to the last 2 world cups)

Did you miss the points raised about;

The flawed competition process whereby Qatar bid for a Summer world cup
The clear level of corruption
Continued use of slave labour in order to build the stadiums
Having to change the whole football sporting calendar
Qatar currently having strict laws against things such as being gay, drinking, in fact many forms of curtailment that the rest of the world would consider normal
Lack of any possibility of legacy in Qatar after the world cup due to lack of population.
Unnecessary impact of other sporting events that will now have to compete with the WC. NFL season for example.
Awarding TV licence to FOX in USA for 2026 without any tender, unusual in itself but particularly given that FOX had been very focal in their displeasure about a winter WC

But yeah, its coz we is racist, init!

Leroy42

LaGlisse wrote: »

I like going to new countries and having new experiences. Qatar and Russia should fit the bill nicely.
Aside from England being a dump, I enjoy watching the English media throw their toys out of the pram when things don't go their way, watching them lose that wc bid was poetry

Just because it is England that you hate doesn't mean it's not racist.

You can't pull the racist card and then shortly after post the above.

LaGlisse

Leroy42 wrote: »

Just because it is England that you hate doesn't mean it's not racist.

You can't pull the racist card and then shortly after post the above.

How is calling England a dump and hating their press racist? It is a dump, that's an objective fact

zl1whqvjs75cdy

LaGlisse wrote: »

How is calling England a dump and hating their press racist? It is a dump, that's an objective fact

Russia and Qatar are hardly paradise by comparison.

Fr Tod Umptious

Zebra3 wrote: »

Far flung? Where is Qatar far flung from? The South Pole?

What makes you think Ireland will even qualify for the tournament or that a tournament without 1,000s of drunken Irish gobsh*tes is somehow missing something "magic"? :rolleyes:

Jesus taking about taking up a post wrong.

My reference to Irish fans was that Qatar does not seem like the type of place you can have an environment like you would have in Europe or the US, lots of bars, restaurants, places to hang out etc.
And as a result it may not be the type of place fans, from any nation, would head off to for 2 weeks in great numbers.

iDave

Cant believe there's any disagreement in this thread. Qatar is quite simply the wrong decision.

LaGlisse

iDave wrote: »

Cant believe there's any disagreement in this thread. Qatar is quite simply the wrong decision.

Its a better decision than Australia

iDave

LaGlisse wrote: »

Its a better decision than Australia

LOL

Augmerson

LaGlisse wrote: »

One of the worst attended tournaments I've ever seen was euro 96 held in the when football "came home"(lol) to England. Seem to recall an an awful lot of empty seats at that one. All the Qatari bashing is just an extension of the usual borderline racist colonial bashing of the natives ability to pull off running a tournament (see the run up to the last 2 world cups)

From Wikipedia:

"the tournament (Euro 96) holds the European Championship's second-highest aggregate attendance (1,276,000) and average per game (41,158) for the 16-team format, surpassed only in 2012."

Fr Tod Umptious

LaGlisse wrote: »

Exactly, it's not like loads of south American fans travel over for European world cups,love the sudden concern people seem to have for African and south American fans travelling arrangements, yet in the next breath they'll say the tourney should have gone to Australia.
Wish people would just be honest and admit they want the tourney held in a nice white country full of people that look like them and that they hate arabs

My point about African and South American fans is that they do not have the same numbers with the amount of disposable income as Europeans that can afford a trip to a world cup.

Its hardly surprising that even though they have big populations they do not send as much fans as European nations.

As a result you cannot extrapolate that visiting countries will send on average x thousand fans because certain countries are just to poor to have that many fans that can afford it.

Guy:Incognito

LaGlisse wrote: »

Its a better decision than Australia

How? Australia fits the bill almost perfectly for the type of place FIFA were banging on about bringing world cups too right up until Qatari brown envelopes started dropping in the letterbox.

iDave

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

How? Australia fits the bill almost perfectly for the type of place FIFA were banging on about bringing world cups too right up until Qatari brown envelopes started dropping in the letterbox.

Pros
June/July their winter so climate not a problem.
Proud history of staging big sporting events (Olympics, AFL, CWC, RWC, Super Rugby, NRL, Lions etc)
Existing stadium infrastructure.
Wont kill construction staff where new stadiums needed.
Competitive population will get behind nation team.
Large cities that can absorb an influx of fans.
Taking football to a country it hasnt penetrated too well.

Cons
Brown envelopes not as big as Qatars

endabob1

Muff_Daddy wrote: »

You missed the South Africa World Cup then I take it.

If you're a soccer fan living in Ireland, then surly a football tournament staged in England affords you the most ideal opportunity to go and see it, save for actually hosting in Ireland (which I thought was impossible, but now I'm not so sure) so why would anyone living here activly object to England hosting a World Cup, like you so vehemently are.

It just seems like cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Are you implying that the South African World Cup was poorly attended?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIFA_World_Cup_records#Total_and_average_attendance


5th best average of 20 world cups and much higher than Japan & Korea which I think would be the most comparable in terms of distance from the main (European & South American) Markets

Leroy42

An objective fact? I think you mean objective opinion.

You may think England is a dump, but if others make claims about Qatar it's because they are racist! Can you not see the problem with your thinking?

England may, or may not, be a dump. But we are talking about Qatar not England. We aren't slating the scenery, or calling into question the people of Qatar and how nice they will be.

This thread is concerned with the whole "Mayhem" of having the world cup there at all. The major issue, as is accepted by FIFA themselves by now changing to a winter world cup, is the inability of Qatar to run summer WC, something they actually bid for.

LaGlisse

It would be winter in Australia too if it was held there in June/July

Guy:Incognito

LaGlisse wrote: »

It would be winter in Australia too if it was held there in June/July

That's generally how the southern hemisphere works, yeah. It doesn't bend time though so football calendars don't need altering.

Tournaments have been held in the Southern Hemisphere before you know. The timing is always the same though.

LaGlisse

Also if you have a smartphone, drink tea or coffee or eat chocolate or buy clothes from pretty much any high street chain you probably benefit from slave labour daily so spare me the sanctimony about the builders

LaGlisse

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

That's generally how the southern hemisphere works, yeah. It doesn't bend time though so football calendars don't need altering.

Tournaments have been held in the Southern Hemisphere before you know. The timing is always the same though.

Yeah they hold it in their winter, so why shouldnt it be held in our winter. Theres a first time for everything

Fr Tod Umptious

LaGlisse wrote: »

It would be winter in Australia too if it was held there in June/July

Australia is a large country and has numerous climates as a result.

The north is tropical where it's either wet or dry. It's dry in June\July

Other parts are desert were it hot all year round

Sub tropical places have more Med./Southern European type climates, warm winter but very warm summers (46c in Jan 2013 in Sydney)

It's no surprise that these places have the largest population centrers. Sydney, Melbourne, Adelaide, Perth.

To suggest that June\July is "winter" in Australia just shows you ignorance of the place.

Guy:Incognito

LaGlisse wrote: »

Also if you have a smartphone, drink tea or coffee or eat chocolate or buy clothes from pretty much any high street chain you probably benefit from slave labour daily so spare me the sanctimony about the builders

The Qatar world cup goes against pretty much everything FIFA said about what world cups should be based around up until, funnily enough, they decided on Qatar. Theres no reason they should have it.

LaGlisse

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Australia is a large country and has numerous climates as a result.

The north is tropical where it's either wet or dry. It's dry in June\July

Other parts are desert were it hot all year round

Sub tropical places have more Med./Southern European type climates, warm winter but very warm summers (46c in Jan 2013 in Sydney)

It's no surprise that these places have the largest population centrers. Sydney, Melbourne, Adelaide, Perth.

To suggest that June\July is "winter" in Australia just shows you ignorance of the place.

But it is winter, thats what they refer to that time of year as themselves????

LaGlisse

I would have objected to an Australia world cup based on their disgraceful treatment of Aboriginals, disgraceful treatment which is ongoing. Not a civilised country

Hyzepher

It's not about summer/winter - it's about the time of year it's held

ArmaniJeanss

Augmerson wrote: »

From Wikipedia:

"the tournament (Euro 96) holds the European Championship's second-highest aggregate attendance (1,276,000) and average per game (41,158) for the 16-team format, surpassed only in 2012."

That was very skewed by the 5 England games in Wembley at ~77000 a pop.
The rest of the competition was poorly enough attended, e.g., a pathetic 43000 at Old Trafford for a semi final, 26000 at Villa Park for a quarter final, as few as 19K in StJames for a group game.

That it remains the second highest overall attendance is due in large part to there being only 5 competitions with 16 teams, and two of those being in setups with smaller stadiums like Switz/Aus and Holland/Belg.

LaGlisse

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

That was very skewed by the 5 England games in Wembley at ~77000 a pop.
The rest of the competition was poorly enough attended, e.g., a pathetic 43000 at Old Trafford for a semi final, 26000 at Villa Park for a quarter final, as few as 19K in StJames for a group game.

That it remains the second highest overall attendance is due in large part to there being only 5 competitions with 16 teams, and two of those being in setups with smaller stadiums like Switz/Aus and Holland/Belg.

I knew i wasnt imagining those half empty stadiums with the atmosphere of a funeral parlour

Guy:Incognito

LaGlisse wrote: »

But it is winter, thats what they refer to that time of year as themselves????

What difference does the name of the season have?

The WC is held in the summer months for where FIFA is based, Zurich.

LaGlisse

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

What difference does the name of the season have?

The WC is held in the summer months for where FIFA is based, Zurich.

And in 2022 it wont be, whats the problem?

Guy:Incognito

LaGlisse wrote: »

I would have objected to an Australia world cup based on their disgraceful treatment of Aboriginals, disgraceful treatment which is ongoing. Not a civilised country

But your ok with Qatar?

Guy:Incognito

LaGlisse wrote: »

whats the problem?

Have you read the thread?

Fr Tod Umptious

Pity this thread is gone to the dogs this morning, it was a good discussion earlier.

I just hope someone in FIFA shouts stop and this is moved to the US (who could handle this at short notice)

I am aware that they are contracts signed etc, but everything in life is negotiable, so I think it's best FIFA start negotiating their way out of this

iDave

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Pity this thread is gone to the dogs this morning, it was a good discussion earlier.

I just hope someone in FIFA shouts stop and this is moved to the US (who could handle this at short notice)

I am aware that they are contracts signed etc, but everything in life is negotiable, so I think it's best FIFA start negotiating their way out of this

Blatter is too pigheaded to backtrack now. Sure he went to the LaGlisse school of calling anyone a racist whos against Qatar getting it .