Good etiquette cycling with another or in a group

theboy1

Lusk_Doyle wrote: »

My, my, you are having a grand time trolling all the forums this evening, aren't you?

I'm straightforward with my opinions and I don't hold back.

Raam

theboy1 wrote: »

I'm straightforward with my opinions and I don't hold back.

Can't wait to see your posts on the gay marriage referendum so.

average_runner

Kaisr Sose wrote: »

You speculate that I drove unsafely (with no knowledge of me or the way I drove) and take a former post out of context to insinuate I am hypocritical?

What's your point or agenda? Cyclist are never wrong? Cyclists are always in the right? I believe no group, or person, me included are perfect or infallible. No doubt will argue the toss on that too!

My point started out as a cyclist safety issue but many seem to believe what I did was worse and want to ignore the cycle safety issue. We ( I include me in that) have to share the road with others and that means give and take on all matters. From a lot of posts here, I see only the desire to take, with no requirement to contribute to road safety. Yes there are loads of bad disrespectful drivers. I meet them too, but there are cyclists who are just as bad and show non respect to other road users.

Look some cyclists are stupid, just like some drivers, walkers and runners.

I had a run in with a cyclist last week running in to work on the n4 by the hermitage.He claimed it was a cycle lane only, but it obviously wasn't. Oh he continued to cycle on the footpath at the Liffey valley exit.

Chips Lovell

@ theboy1 Please read the charter. And don't post in this thread again.

Thank you

RainyDay

theboy1 wrote: »

Nah most of them appear to be overweight middle aged men squeezed into Lycra.

Oooh you could try not staring at the lycra-encased asses? How hard to you have to look to detect what kind of clothing they are wearing?

Raam wrote: »

A 'herd' of cyclists is called a peloton.

Heard of cyclists? Sure everyone's heard of cyclists.

Kaisr Sose wrote: »

You speculate that I drove unsafely (with no knowledge of me or the way I drove) and take a former post out of context to insinuate I am hypocritical?

What's your point or agenda? Cyclist are never wrong? Cyclists are always in the right? I believe no group, or person, me included are perfect or infallible. No doubt will argue the toss on that too!

My point started out as a cyclist safety issue but many seem to believe what I did was worse and want to ignore the cycle safety issue. We ( I include me in that) have to share the road with others and that means give and take on all matters. From a lot of posts here, I see only the desire to take, with no requirement to contribute to road safety. Yes there are loads of bad disrespectful drivers. I meet them too, but there are cyclists who are just as bad and show non respect to other road users.

Can I just check if, everything you overtake or filter past a car driver with their phone in their hand, do you feel the need to wind down your window and correct them? I'm just curious to know if it is genuinely dangerous manouvres that you want to stamp out, or or just minor inconveniences?

theboy1 wrote: »

OP unfortunately most cyclists wont ever admit to blame. A scourge.

Yeah, the ba$tards. And then there is the 200 people each year that they kill and the thousands that they maim. Oh wait no, hang on.....

Lusk_Doyle

Raam wrote: »

Can't wait to see your posts on the gay marriage referendum so.

Happy marriage? Does that exist?

Puggy

Am I missing something here? You approach another road user or group of road users, in the same lane as you. If you want to go pass them, you have no option but to overtake, while not causing any danger to the people you are overtaking, or any other road users. That applies regardless of the type of road user, people, people with livestock, cyclists, children walking to school, farmers driving tractors, slow/wide vehicles. The onus is on you, the person carrying out the manoeuvre, to be mindful of other road users.

If you can't overtake, then exercise some restraint. one day, you will be the road user "causing the obstruction". The road is for everyone.

I often drive the roads I cycle on. There have been times where I've sat behind a group of cyclists or in one case two horses, once for the 10 minutes until it was safe to overtake. It's just the way it is, once I passed them, I had plenty of time to complete my journey.

Be happy you can drive and cycle, there are many who can't.

average_runner

Kaisr Sose wrote: »

You speculate that I drove unsafely (with no knowledge of me or the way I drove) and take a former post out of context to insinuate I am hypocritical?

What's your point or agenda? Cyclist are never wrong? Cyclists are always in the right? I believe no group, or person, me included are perfect or infallible. No doubt will argue the toss on that too!

My point started out as a cyclist safety issue but many seem to believe what I did was worse and want to ignore the cycle safety issue. We ( I include me in that) have to share the road with others and that means give and take on all matters. From a lot of posts here, I see only the desire to take, with no requirement to contribute to road safety. Yes there are loads of bad disrespectful drivers. I meet them too, but there are cyclists who are just as bad and show non respect to other road users.

Look some cyclists are stupid, just like some drivers, walkers and runners.

I had a run in with a cyclist last week running in to work on the n4 by the hermitage.He claimed it was a cycle lane only, but it obviously wasn't. Oh he continued to cycle on the footpath at the Liffey valley exit.

07Lapierre

Raam wrote: »

When I saw the thread title I thought it was gonna be about half-wheeling or making sure your bidons match or something.

+1.. I was really looking forward to having a good rant about cyclist who blow snot or spit all over the place! ( my pet hate when riding in a group)

Lusk_Doyle

07Lapierre wrote: »

+1.. I was really looking forward to having a good rant about cyclist who blow snot or spit all over the place! ( my pet hate when riding in a group)

Now if the 5th rider had just chosen the exact moment when the knowledge was forthcoming to do a snot rocket then we would have a thread worth having!

Puggy

07Lapierre wrote: »

+1.. I was really looking forward to having a good rant about cyclist who blow snot or spit all over the place! ( my pet hate when riding in a group)

How would you know who's snotting or spitting, I thought your place was at the front

07Lapierre

Puggy wrote: »

How would you know who's snotting or spitting, I thought your place was at the front

That's Sunday morning.....On the Saturday morning spin, I'm the one at the back of the group chewing the bars! Then some fecker clears his nose all over the place! Uuuugh!

Wishbone Ash

07Lapierre wrote: »

That's Sunday morning.....On the Saturday morning spin, I'm the one at the back of the group chewing the bars! Then some fecker clears his nose all over the place! Uuuugh!

You'd better avoid the Tuesday night hill repeats!

Kaisr Sose

This has certainly been an eye openinf experience. The vast majority of posters believe it's perfectly acceptable and not at all dangerous to cycle 2m from the left, on a busy road, after night fall.

And woe betide anybody, particularaly a motorist, that would even suggest it might be dangerous doing so. I even suggest that if the motorist was removed from my post, the responses and feelings would still be the same.

That people feel it more right to focus on the drivers behaviour, (which I accept was not perfect, but not dangerous (in this instance) as speculated by some and not illegal either, rather than the cyclist that was rolling the dice for no reason is bizarre.


To those who derail discussion by bringing up hypothetical scenarios, sure, lots of things are possible, life is dynamic. But in this case, one cyclist was cycling out in the middle of a dark roadway for no sensible reason while his 4 buddies were riding with due attention to their and others safety. Fact!

The crossing white lines comment:
My understanding of the rules of the road are that the only occasions you can cross a continuous white line are in an emergency, for access or when directed to do so by a Guard.
Passing a cyclist or other vehicle is not generally regarded as an emergency and fallen trees or blocked roads are not an everyday situation where most of us ride. But of course, using one head to pass in those scenarios would make sense.

Not interfering or impeding other road users:
A cyclist like all other road users has a responsibility to other road users not to needlessly impede or interfere with the safe passage of other traffic that are abiding by the rules of the road. Let's call it a cooperative of sorts. This point has been totally lost by all that think its OK to ride out on the centre of a traffic lane.

I really have nothing to add and further discussion on cycle safety seems to just draw more critisism and hypotheis. Final words - stay safe and rembember that the day you think you have it cracked might be the same day you meet a motorist that thinks they have it cracked too....happy cycling to all!

RainyDay

Kaisr Sose wrote: »

This has certainly been an eye openinf experience. The vast majority of posters believe it's perfectly acceptable and not at all dangerous to cycle 2m from the left, on a busy road, after night fall.

And woe betide anybody, particularaly a motorist, that would even suggest it might be dangerous doing so. I even suggest that if the motorist was removed from my post, the responses and feelings would still be the same.

That people feel it more right to focus on the drivers behaviour, (which I accept was not perfect, but not dangerous (in this instance) as speculated by some and not illegal either, rather than the cyclist that was rolling the dice for no reason is bizarre.


To those who derail discussion by bringing up hypothetical scenarios, sure, lots of things are possible, life is dynamic. But in this case, one cyclist was cycling out in the middle of a dark roadway for no sensible reason while his 4 buddies were riding with due attention to their and others safety. Fact!

The crossing white lines comment:
My understanding of the rules of the road are that the only occasions you can cross a continuous white line are in an emergency, for access or when directed to do so by a Guard.
Passing a cyclist or other vehicle is not generally regarded as an emergency and fallen trees or blocked roads are not an everyday situation where most of us ride. But of course, using one head to pass in those scenarios would make sense.

Not interfering or impeding other road users:
A cyclist like all other road users has a responsibility to other road users not to needlessly impede or interfere with the safe passage of other traffic that are abiding by the rules of the road. Let's call it a cooperative of sorts. This point has been totally lost by all that think its OK to ride out on the centre of a traffic lane.

I really have nothing to add and further discussion on cycle safety seems to just draw more critisism and hypotheis. Final words - stay safe and rembember that the day you think you have it cracked might be the same day you meet a motorist that thinks they have it cracked too....happy cycling to all!

Just in case you missed my question above, I'll repeat it here;

Can I just check if, everything you overtake or filter past a car driver with their phone in their hand, do you feel the need to wind down your window and correct them? I'm just curious to know if it is genuinely dangerous manouvres that you want to stamp out, or or just minor inconveniences?

buffalo

Kaisr Sose wrote: »

The vast majority of posters believe it's perfectly acceptable and not at all dangerous to cycle 2m from the left, on a busy road, after night fall.

Wait, what was dangerous about it? I thought you were suggesting it was bad etiquette.

niceonetom

Kaisr Sose wrote: »

This has certainly been an eye openinf experience. The vast majority of posters believe it's perfectly acceptable and not at all dangerous to cycle 2m from the left, on a busy road, after night fall.

Nope.

You don't get to misrepresent those who disagree with you like that - very few people were saying categorically the cyclists were completely in the right. They were saying whatever their misdeeds were, they were trivial. Something that you should have calmly risen above, proceeded on your journey and quickly forgotten about. Like a normal person.

Kaisr Sose wrote: »

That people feel it more right to focus on the drivers behaviour,

And rightly so seeing as a) you're the one in this scenario we can actually call to account and b) your account makes you sound like a crazy person.

Rolling down your window, while overtaking, to "inform" other road users of what you think to be rude is inherently dangerous... you want us to believe that is safe?

Really?

Come on man.

dashcamdanny

This is why everyone should keep a loaded water pistol handy while driving and cycling.

Anyone that winds down the window gets blasted with ----

:pac::pac::pac::pac:

Tenzor07

dashcamdanny wrote: »

This is why everyone should keep a loaded water pistol handy while driving and cycling.

Anyone that winds down the window gets blasted with ----

:pac::pac::pac::pac:

Yes!

Green&Red

Something which has come up a good bit for me recently amongst cyclists is the following

You're cycling along, say a group of six or even two. It's a windy road and there's a car behind you. Do you single out to let them past?

I'm adamant that you don't, by singling out you're inviting cars to pass you, even with cars coming towards them, they run outta space and you're the one that loses out. If it's safe to pass one it's safe to pass two, cross the White line and pass safely.

Took out a group with the club two weeks ago and had a slow lady on the climb up to powerscourt, a windy road, so I cycled alongside her, another cyclist passed and roared at us that we were holding up traffic and giving cyclists a bad name.

Thoughts??

Hi Ho

"You're cycling along, say a group of six or even two. It's a windy road and there's a car behind you. Do you single out to let them past?"

This has come up before. My own view is that there is plenty of room on the other side of the carriageway if it is safe to pass. The only reason to go single file is to give them room to pass either on a bend or against on-coming traffic, neither of which they should do.

Kaisr Sose

Lots here making big assumptions. Like me being on the wrong side of the road and having a chat. Really? Where was that written? Its single contiuous while lines = meaning no crossing. I waited till they hit the bus lane at the school as someone showed in a photo earlier. No rules broken by me.

I was calm not a ranting raving lunatic like some would like to think. Some posters here come across as having a rant and clueless on safe cycling and respecting other road users. Safety is no laughing matter.

The person that asked about people on phones while driving makes a valid point. No, never did that..I have seen cyclists telling off motorists who are when they have pulled across or out on them. Strange that a cyclist would do such a terrible thing? Yes/No?

I am not the person that advocating agression here (aka squinting water pistols/bottles) I heard it said before that such behaviour can be regarded as assault-maybe one of you will find out one day of that is so. Not to mention that its highly dangerous to squirt water into someone's face while they are driving. Really intelligent behaviour if that is something you have done!

For those that did not read my posts 'dangerous to cycle in the middle of the road at night' was said by me many times. That the whole point but it was derailed into a 'bad motorist' topic by many.

Finally I have been certified sane many times, but thanks for your interest in my state of mind.

Tenzor07

This is the section of road, I know it quite well, usually the narrow cycle lane is full of small branches/twigs, leaf mush, and low hanging branches...not always easy to always stay in the narrow confines of the cycle paint...



"Niceone Tom" hit the nail on the head with his post though!

dashcamdanny

Kaisr Sose wrote: »

Lots here making big assumptions. Like me being on the wrong side of the road and having a chat. Really? Where was that written? Its single contiuous while lines = meaning no crossing. I waited till they hit the bus lane at the school as someone showed in a photo earlier. No rules broken by me.

I was calm not a ranting raving lunatic like some would like to think. Some posters here come across as having a rant and clueless on safe cycling and respecting other road users. Safety is no laughing matter.

The person that asked about people on phones while driving makes a valid point. No, never did that..I have seen cyclists telling off motorists who are when they have pulled across or out on them. Strange that a cyclist would do such a terrible thing? Yes/No?

I am not the person that advocating agression here (aka squinting water pistols/bottles) I heard it said before that such behaviour can be regarded as assault-maybe one of you will find out one day of that is so. Not to mention that its highly dangerous to squirt water into someone's face while they are driving. Really intelligent behaviour if that is something you have done!

For those that did not read my posts 'dangerous to cycle in the middle of the road at night' was said by me many times. That the whole point but it was derailed into a 'bad motorist' topic by many.

Finally I have been certified sane many times, but thanks for your interest in my state of mind.

What did you expect . You posted it in the cycling forum.

RainyDay

Kaisr Sose wrote: »

The person that asked about people on phones while driving makes a valid point. No, never did that.

But you see how strange it looks that you feel the need to 'correct' cyclists who caused a minor inconvenience, but you don't feel a need to correct drivers who threaten the safety of other road users.

Kaisr Sose wrote: »

I have seen cyclists telling off motorists who are when they have pulled across or out on them. Strange that a cyclist would do such a terrible thing? Yes/No?

Did the cyclists in front of you threaten your safety in the way that a motorist pulling out on a cyclist threatens their safety?

Danjamin1

Kaisr Sose wrote: »

The person that asked about people on phones while driving makes a valid point. No, never did that..I have seen cyclists telling off motorists who are when they have pulled across or out on them. Strange that a cyclist would do such a terrible thing? Yes/No?

That's a different matter altogether, if someone is putting someone else's safety at risk by not paying attention and acting stupid/dangerously they deserve a telling off, whereas in the incident you've described the only complaint appears to be that you were temporarily inconvenienced. They're not two comparable scenarios

Wishbone Ash

Green&Red wrote: »

Something which has come up a good bit for me recently amongst cyclists is the following

You're cycling along, say a group of six or even two. It's a windy road and there's a car behind you. Do you single out to let them past?

I'm adamant that you don't, by singling out you're inviting cars to pass you, even with cars coming towards them, they run outta space and you're the one that loses out. If it's safe to pass one it's safe to pass two, cross the White line and pass safely.

Took out a group with the club two weeks ago and had a slow lady on the climb up to powerscourt, a windy road, so I cycled alongside her, another cyclist passed and roared at us that we were holding up traffic and giving cyclists a bad name.

Thoughts??

If a car was behind us for some time and having difficulty passing, a shout would go out to 'tidy up' for a bit to let the car go. If an 'artic' was behind us, we'd probably do it sooner as the driver would have a much more limited opportunity to pass. And if he was still having difficulty passing, we would pull over where the opportunity presented to allow him on his way.

Lusk_Doyle

Finally I have been certified sane many times, but thanks for your interest in my state of mind.

The fact that you feel that you have to make statements such as the above speaks volumes to me.

07Lapierre

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

If a car was behind us for some time and having difficulty passing, a shout would go out to 'tidy up' for a bit to let the car go. If an 'artic' was behind us, we'd probably do it sooner as the driver would have a much more limited opportunity to pass. And if he was still having difficulty passing, we would pull over where the opportunity presented to allow him on his way.

Also known as "using common sense" in the situation that u describe above, the cyclists are in front. They decide when to move over and allow the motorists behind them pass.

laraghrider

dashcamdanny wrote: »

What did you expect . You posted it in the cycling forum.

No not the case at all. The poster came on with a predetermined opinion and answer in his mind. He was very vague about the road, conditions and the situation at hand. The only thing he wasn't overly vague about was pulling up along side a cyclist on a dark and windy road, rolling down his window to offer him some advice. When he realised that he didn't get the universal backing he expected forum wide he has gone completely defensive and offered nothing in the way of clarifications and won't under any circumstances see his own actions as dangerous.

It's nothing at all do to with putting it in a cycling forum but it's all to do with posting a predetermined attitude and refusing to budge even when certain things are pointed out to you. That's called ignorance.

Kaisr Sose wrote: »

Finally I have been certified sane many times, but thanks for your interest in my state of mind.

Maybe it's just me but the only person who can certify anyone sane or insane is a qualified psychiatrist. If you have been "certified" as sane plenty of times tells me you have been to a psychiatrist plenty of times. Should you really be driving?

CramCycle

Kaisr Sose wrote: »

Lots here making big assumptions. Like me being on the wrong side of the road and having a chat. Really? Where was that written? Its single contiuous while lines = meaning no crossing. I waited till they hit the bus lane at the school as someone showed in a photo earlier. No rules broken by me.

Imagine two cars on a dual carriageway, the scecond car winds down its window and attempts a polite conversation with the car beside them. Is this safe? Fair enough, chances of an oncoming car are greatly reduced (although not gone if you look at the dashcam thread in motors), but are you really giving the road the attention it deserves.

I was calm not a ranting raving lunatic like some would like to think. Some posters here come across as having a rant and clueless on safe cycling and respecting other road users. Safety is no laughing matter.

Never said you were raving, although if you had done it to me, I might have thought you were raving.

The person that asked about people on phones while driving makes a valid point. No, never did that..I have seen cyclists telling off motorists who are when they have pulled across or out on them. Strange that a cyclist would do such a terrible thing? Yes/No?

I am not the person that advocating agression here (aka squinting water pistols/bottles) I heard it said before that such behaviour can be regarded as assault-maybe one of you will find out one day of that is so. Not to mention that its highly dangerous to squirt water into someone's face while they are driving. Really intelligent behaviour if that is something you have done!

Its pretty stupid behaviour, I think most of those comments were meant to be humourous, I have had a van throw a bottle of water at me as squirting was clearly too dangerous.

For those that did not read my posts 'dangerous to cycle in the middle of the road at night' was said by me many times. That the whole point but it was derailed into a 'bad motorist' topic by many.

If Tenzors picture is the right place, the middle of the lane is exactly where I would have been at night, that cycle path is a danger. Again, its been 8 pages of people asking for more clarity, the location, etc. Without actual detail from you, all we have is what you say.

Tenzor07 wrote: »

This is the section of road, I know it quite well, usually the narrow cycle lane is full of small branches/twigs, leaf mush, and low hanging branches...not always easy to always stay in the narrow confines of the cycle paint...

"Niceone Tom" hit the nail on the head with his post though!

+1

dashcamdanny wrote: »

What did you expect . You posted it in the cycling forum.

To be fair, if the cyclists sounded like the more moronic of the two on this forum, they would have been slated

Keep_Her_Lit

Kaisr Sose wrote: »

Finally I have been certified sane many times, but thanks for your interest in my state of mind.

Why did you need to be certified sane many times, if you don't mind my asking?

buffalo

Kaisr Sose wrote: »

For those that did not read my posts 'dangerous to cycle in the middle of the road at night' was said by me many times. That the whole point but it was derailed into a 'bad motorist' topic by many.

Was this person cycling in the middle of the road, or the middle of the lane? If the latter, that's not dangerous, they're more visible there, especially on a windy road.

Eamonnator

Remember, Sheldon was also certified sane.
So, all good on that front.

Kaisr Sose

Tenzor07 wrote: »

This is the section of road, I know it quite well, usually the narrow cycle lane is full of small branches/twigs, leaf mush, and low hanging branches...not always easy to always stay in the narrow confines of the cycle paint...



"Niceone Tom" hit the nail on the head with his post though!

Agh, but his 4 mates ahead had no problem riding within it. I cycle it 6 times week, incl the evening referred to and it was clear of debris. I do accept it can be full of twigs after high winds and leaves in Oct/Nov, but it gets swept and I have cut briars off it that I kept hitting.

My point all along was and is, he would be safer within the lane rather that being outside it - especially at night. But most totally disagree for reasons I cant understand.

Kaisr Sose

Keep_Her_Lit wrote: »

Why did you need to be certified sane many times, if you don't mind my asking?

If people really feel the need to question my state of mind, even if joking when doing so, surely its also OK for me to joke? Life is too short not to joke and laugh a bit.

Surely you dont believe everything you read...especially on boards or similar forums?

Kaisr Sose

dashcamdanny wrote: »

What did you expect . You posted it in the cycling forum.

I posted as a cyclist that also drives - like many of you other cyclists here. It certainly got some interesting replies...

Kaisr Sose

Danjamin1 wrote: »

That's a different matter altogether, if someone is putting someone else's safety at risk by not paying attention and acting stupid/dangerously they deserve a telling off, whereas in the incident you've described the only complaint appears to be that you were temporarily inconvenienced. They're not two comparable scenarios

My question or point was whether that was safe cycling. Thats all. I was not bothered about having to wait behind. I was not in any hurry. I just thought it was needlessly dangerous of the cyclist. And that is still my view.

Kaisr Sose

Lusk_Doyle wrote: »

The fact that you feel that you have to make statements such as the above speaks volumes to me.

I joked... In the same way you joke in some of your posts...assuming you were :-)

fat bloke

jinkypolly

Kaisr Sose wrote: »

Agh, but his 4 mates ahead had no problem riding within it. I cycle it 6 times week, incl the evening referred to and it was clear of debris. I do accept it can be full of twigs after high winds and leaves in Oct/Nov, but it gets swept and I have cut briars off it that I kept hitting.

My point all along was and is, he would be safer within the lane rather that being outside it - especially at night. But most totally disagree for reasons I cant understand.

That's not for you to make that call, that's up to the guy riding the bike to decide what is safest/prefered positioning. You riding behind/beside "at night" can't possibly know what's the best position.

You still, as far as I can see, have not pointed out what the rearmost cyclist was doing wrong.

Kaisr Sose

laraghrider wrote: »

No not the case at all. The poster came on with a predetermined opinion and answer in his mind. He was very vague about the road, conditions and the situation at hand. The only thing he wasn't overly vague about was pulling up along side a cyclist on a dark and windy road, rolling down his window to offer him some advice. When he realised that he didn't get the universal backing he expected forum wide he has gone completely defensive and offered nothing in the way of clarifications and won't under any circumstances see his own actions as dangerous.

It's nothing at all do to with putting it in a cycling forum but it's all to do with posting a predetermined attitude and refusing to budge even when certain things are pointed out to you. That's called ignorance.



Maybe it's just me but the only person who can certify anyone sane or insane is a qualified psychiatrist. If you have been "certified" as sane plenty of times tells me you have been to a psychiatrist plenty of times. Should you really be driving?

On a forum there will always be differences of opinion. While some may think, and would be entitled to think from my posts, that I was ignorant or came across as so. I wish to assure you all that is not a view you would form if you met me. I am entitled to a strong view and entitled to defend. Disagreeing does not imply ignorance. Of all the people that posted, I was the only person that was there ( I think? ) and had first hand knowledge. I know dangerous cycling when I see it. This was an examplr of that.

I have already commented on the sanity comment...c'mon, someone that was certified or certifiable is hardly likely to post it here.

Tenzor07

Kaisr Sose wrote: »

Agh, but his 4 mates ahead had no problem riding within it.

B100dy Mountain-bikers! :pac:

Lusk_Doyle

Tenzor07 wrote: »

B100dy Mountain-bikers! :pac:

They could have hit a jogger!

Kaisr Sose

Tenzor07 wrote: »

B100dy Mountain-bikers! :pac:

Roadies actually! :-)

Kaisr Sose

fat bloke wrote: »

On the seventh day...he rests. But you are all contributing too...nah, it's over!

Beasty

Let's leave it there