Heinz 57 Lab/retriever type puppy - where to get one?

BenEadir

Hi all,

I've a wonderful Heinz 57 Labrador/German Shepard/Other type cross bitch who was spayed as soon as she reached maturity. She has German Shepard colouring and hair but a Labrador shape body and a Labrador type character.

She was an unwanted/rescue pup from a farm in early 2005 and is now 10 and slowing down. I'd like to get a similar make up young pup just weaned off it's mother who my current dog can "mother" and show to ropes to and I'm also hoping that the injection of a younger dog into the mix will also give my current dog a new lease of life.

Is this a good/bad plan? Should I wait another year or two before introducing a pup?

If it's a good plan where is a good place to pick up a a genuine unwanted/rescue pup just weaned off it's mother?

Toulouse

How is your dog with other dogs?

I know my 9 year old would hate for me to bring home a pup so before you do make sure it's in the best interests of your existing dog.

Other than that, these kinds of pups are ten a penny in Irish pounds although you never really know what you're getting with a pound puppy - they could turn into anything! If you are going down this route then make sure your own dogs vaccinations, etc. are all up to date.

BenEadir

Toulouse wrote: »

How is your dog with other dogs?

I know my 9 year old would hate for me to bring home a pup so before you do make sure it's in the best interests of your existing dog.

Other than that, these kinds of pups are ten a penny in Irish pounds although you never really know what you're getting with a pound puppy - they could turn into anything! If you are going down this route then make sure your own dogs vaccinations, etc. are all up to date.

My dog is bang up to date with her vaccinations etc and has a super temperament with kids and adults etc but can be a bit territorial with other dogs. I spoke to the vet at her recent annual checkup and he thinks it's a good idea to transition a young pup into the house but it has to be a very young pup who will immediately acknowledge that the existing dog is the boss in the hierarchy. That's absolutely key otherwise it could be a disaster and totally counter productive. The older the pup is the more it will have established it's own identity and will be more likely to challenge rather than defer to the older dog.

tk123

My dog is great with other dogs but he was NOT impressed when his baby sister arrived - he was 4 at the time. It took a good while for him to accept her and almost 2 years on I still have to separate them at times because she torments him and pushes him around. She even bosses my friend's dog who's the same age as my guy!!

Could you foster maybe and see how she gets on with another dog in the house?

ShaShaBear

BenEadir wrote: »

My dog is bang up to date with her vaccinations etc and has a super temperament with kids and adults etc but can be a bit territorial with other dogs. I spoke to the vet at her recent annual checkup and he thinks it's a good idea to transition a young pup into the house but it has to be a very young pup who will immediately acknowledge that the existing dog is the boss in the hierarchy. That's absolutely key otherwise it could be a disaster and totally counter productive. The older the pup is the more it will have established it's own identity and will be more likely to challenge rather than defer to the older dog.

This sounds a bit too much like alpha dog mumbo jumbo for my liking.
A young pup barely weaned off its mother will be nothing but a plague and will absolutely not "defer" to your dog. It will jump, pull at, nip, scratch and generally plague your dog, until she is forced to put manners on the pup. Be that a growl, snap or full-blown attack. If your dog is territorial, I definitely wouldn't recommend throwing something with that much energy on top of a poor dog that could be achy, sore and tired on a daily basis.

BenEadir

ShaShaBear wrote: »

A young pup barely weaned off its mother will be nothing but a plague and will absolutely not "defer" to your dog. It will jump, pull at, nip, scratch and generally plague your dog, until she is forced to put manners on the pup. Be that a growl, snap or full-blown attack.

I wouldn't have any problem with an older dog putting manners on the young pup, that's one of the reasons the the vet thinks it would be a good idea i.e. pass my current dog's good habits and behaviour down to a young pup.

ShaShaBear wrote: »

I definitely wouldn't recommend throwing something with that much energy on top of a poor dog that could be achy, sore and tired on a daily basis.

Well a couple of times a year we look after a friends pure bred Cairn Terrier who is an annoying hyper little yoke. He lives with us and our current dog for up to two weeks at a time and although there has been the odd snap and growl from our lad it usually was enough to make clear to the visitor where the boundaries are. There has never been any fighting or bites etc which I'll take as a positive sign that whilst she might get a bit grumpy with a new arrival she won't tear it to pieces!!

peasant

We brought a 13 week old pup home to three dogs aged 13, 11 and 10.
All of the old dogs are healthy and pain free but nonetheless very set in their ways and routines.

The new pup tried his luck with annoying all of them in succession, received one strong rebuke each (a quick corrective bite over the muzzle) and to this day he respects them (more than us:D) even though by now he's between twice and four times their size and weight.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=94382905&postcount=9634

With an older dog and a pup I wouldn't expect too much in the line of cameraderie and playful friendship (never mind "mothering") but a respectful together should be achievable without too much hassle.

Toulouse

No offence OP but I would not be listening to a vets advice on this matter, they are not usually known for their expertise in behavioural quarters.

There are many more qualified people who post on this forum who will be able to advise.

BenEadir

Toulouse wrote: »

No offence OP but I would not be listening to a vets advice on this matter, they are not usually known for their expertise in behavioural quarters.

There are many more qualified people who post on this forum who will be able to advise.

Exactly what qualifications would trump a veterinary degree when it comes to animal welfare?

VonVix

BenEadir wrote: »

Exactly what qualifications would trump a veterinary degree when it comes to animal welfare?

Vets study the body more than the mind. They are two completely separate areas. It's like posing a doctor with a psychology question.

I do think fostering would be a fab idea for you. You could test run having a puppy in your house and how you dog feels about it without making a lifelong commitment.

tk123

BenEadir wrote: »

Exactly what qualifications would trump a veterinary degree when it comes to animal welfare?

A masters in animal behaviour would be enough for me to trump a short module in vet school.

BenEadir

VonVix wrote: »

Vets study the body more than the mind. They are two completely separate areas. It's like posing a doctor with a psychology question.

Vets may study animal bodies more so than animal minds as you suggest but they do study animal behaviour as part of their training.

What is the qualification which provides more comprehensive animal behaviour training than a veterinary degree?

BenEadir

tk123 wrote: »

A masters in animal behaviour would be enough for me to trump a short module in vet school.

Can you link to such a degree?

tk123

BenEadir wrote: »

Can you link to such a degree?

Well google is your friend but for example

http://www.postgraduatesearch.com/manchester-metropolitan-university/52430388/postgraduate-course.htm

http://www.ed.ac.uk/schools-departments/vet/studying/postgraduate/taught-programmes/applied-animal-behaviour-welfare/

DBB

BenEadir wrote: »

Vets may study animal bodies more so than animal minds as you suggest but they do study animal behaviour as part of their training.

Animal behaviour is not a compulsory part of the veterinary degree: the lectures are not examined upon. In short, vets receive practically no behavioural training.

BenEadir wrote: »

Can you link to such a degree?

There are a number of universities (none in the Republic of Ireland yet) which offer honours degrees in animal behaviour, and a few that offer Master's degrees too. The three most popular universities offering Master's in applied companion animal behaviour are Southampton, Newcastle, and Lincoln. I'm sure there are more, but they're the big three for companion animal behaviour.:) There are quite a few others but they don't specialise in companion animals.

boomerang

As someone who lost their very, very precious doglet to cancer when she just turned eleven - and who was a Shepherd cross, like your girl...

Postpone the puppy. She will only torment your existing dog. Let the dog you have (and who you clearly love) live out her golden years without competition for your attention. Savour every precious minute with her. Plenty of time down the road to get a puppy, when you are ready. Meanwhile I don't think a puppy would be a welcome development in your oldie's life. It sounds as though she has always been an only dog? Then why introduce another now, when she slowing down in her old age and settled in her ways? Concentrate on her now, when she will need you most. For me, taking on a puppy when my dog was in her teens would have been a total distraction just when our time together felt more and more precious.

borderlinemeath

My oldest dog hates jumpy puppies, and she's only 7. She's very accepting of older dogs though, and by older I mean adult dogs. She has a couple of favourites, sighthounds are one and black mongrels/lab crosses are another . We introduced her companion to her when she was 4, who was a year old dog, initially as a foster, now they can't be separated. But I'm mindful that she's not fond of pups and rarely leave her alone with one as she just gets frustrated.

OP if you're determined to get another dog, fostering for a local rescue is the ideal option. Particularly as you're fairly open minded breed wise, and they always find it hardest to rehome the larger mongrels (there's always a lot of fosterers for the cute fluffy ones!) The rescue is always on hand for advice and support and if the dogs don't bond well then you've got back up and the dog can go to another foster. If they do bond then you can always make it a permanent arrangement by adoption.

BenEadir

DBB wrote: »

Animal behaviour is not a compulsory part of the veterinary degree: the lectures are not examined upon. In short, vets receive practically no behavioural training.




There are a number of universities (none in the Republic of Ireland yet) which offer honours degrees in animal behaviour, and a few that offer Master's degrees too. The three most popular universities offering Master's in applied companion animal behaviour are Southampton, Newcastle, and Lincoln. I'm sure there are more, but they're the big three for companion animal behaviour.:) There are quite a few others but they don't specialise in companion animals.

Thanks DBB, that's interesting info and good to know.

I guess in the absence of having access to someone who has acquired a degree in animal behaviour (apparently there are a few on this forum??) the next best qualified person to take advice from is a vet?

BenEadir

boomerang wrote: »

As someone who lost their very, very precious doglet to cancer when she just turned eleven - and who was a Shepherd cross, like your girl...

Postpone the puppy. She will only torment your existing dog. Let the dog you have (and who you clearly love) live out her golden years without competition for your attention. Savour every precious minute with her. Plenty of time down the road to get a puppy, when you are ready. Meanwhile I don't think a puppy would be a welcome development in your oldie's life. It sounds as though she has always been an only dog? Then why introduce another now, when she slowing down in her old age and settled in her ways? Concentrate on her now, when she will need you most. For me, taking on a puppy when my dog was in her teens would have been a total distraction just when our time together felt more and more precious.

Hi Boomerang, thanks for sharing your story. I'm sorry to hear of the distress you went through with your dog, it must have been quite upsetting.

I'm on the fence over this. One part of me says let my ageing lady enjoy her dotage (she's just turning 10 in a few weeks so not THAT old yet) but another part of me thinks she'd be a great mentor for a young pup and it would give her a new focus shot of energy. I honestly don't think introducing a new pup will in any way reduce the affection or care the older dog will receive. Yes there will be a bit of fuss over the puppy but we can pro actively manage that situation by always making more of an initial fuss over the older dog and I really would like the fantastic habits and behaviour from the older dog to be transitioned as much as possible to a young pup.

The "adopt a dog" charity/rescue sites I've been researching pretty much all request that very young pups (6-10 weeks old) are paired with older dogs for companionship and mentoring rather than placed with familes where they will be the only dog and good animal welfare is the entire reason these organisations exist.

I do understand your argument but I don't accept that continuing to love and care for an older dog whilst loving and taking care of a young pup are mutually exclusive or that the latter will be a negative experience for the older dog.

I may be totally wrong but I'm leaning towards getting the pup!!

BenEadir

borderlinemeath wrote: »

OP if you're determined to get another dog, fostering for a local rescue is the ideal option. Particularly as you're fairly open minded breed wise, and they always find it hardest to rehome the larger mongrels (there's always a lot of fosterers for the cute fluffy ones!) The rescue is always on hand for advice and support and if the dogs don't bond well then you've got back up and the dog can go to another foster. If they do bond then you can always make it a permanent arrangement by adoption.

Yes, that might indeed be a good idea. I'll check it out.

muddypaws

BenEadir wrote: »

Hi Boomerang, thanks for sharing your story. I'm sorry to hear of the distress you went through with your dog, it must have been quite upsetting.

I'm on the fence over this. One part of me says let my ageing lady enjoy her dotage (she's just turning 10 in a few weeks so not THAT old yet) but another part of me thinks she'd be a great mentor for a young pup and it would give her a new focus shot of energy. I honestly don't think introducing a new pup will in any way reduce the affection or care the older dog will receive. Yes there will be a bit of fuss over the puppy but we can pro actively manage that situation by always making more of an initial fuss over the older dog and I really would like the fantastic habits and behaviour from the older dog to be transitioned as much as possible to a young pup.

The "adopt a dog" charity/rescue sites I've been researching pretty much all request that very young pups (6-10 weeks old) are paired with older dogs for companionship and mentoring rather than placed with familes where they will be the only dog and good animal welfare is the entire reason these organisations exist.

I do understand your argument but I don't accept that continuing to love and care for an older dog whilst loving and taking care of a young pup are mutually exclusive or that the latter will be a negative experience for the older dog.

I may be totally wrong but I'm leaning towards getting the pup!!

I would run away screaming from any charity or rescue that rehomes pups at 6 weeks. I am intrigued that they pretty much all request the pups are paired, its against the forum charter to post names of rescues, but would you mind pming me with the names of some of them. I and a lot of posters on here are or have been involved in rescue, and its not something I've come across.

I think you're right, 10 isn't a great age, my 11 year old girl is still very playful with other dogs and flirtatious with some I also have a bitch that will be 10 in May that is very tolerant, until she isn't, but I wouldn't have an issue with introducing a young dog to her.

Best of luck in your search

FlowerGarden

BenEadir wrote: »

Thanks DBB, that's interesting info and good to know.

I guess in the absence of having access to someone who has acquired a degree in animal behaviour (apparently there are a few on this forum??) the next best qualified person to take advice from is a vet?

In fairness OP you are the one that came to this forum to ask for advice. The majority of people responded to you in good faith to say that in general older dogs to do not like puppies and it would not be in the best interest of your dog to get one, its not what you wanted to hear and you have been borderline sarcastic in your replies. If you are a follower of this forum you would know that the regular posters always have the best interest of the animals at heart and are not trying to rain on your parade, they are giving you the benefit of their vast experience as you asked them to do in the first place.

doubter

I would go with Muddypaws here, i have 7 dogs, in the ages between 1 and 8 - introducing another dog has never been a problem. OP, fostering is probably a very very good idea before going all the way..if it works out, you may become a ' failed foster' , and if not, the puppy will be rehomed at the appropriate time and you know where you stand. Win-win really in my opinion...

DBB

BenEadir wrote: »

Thanks DBB, that's interesting info and good to know.

I guess in the absence of having access to someone who has acquired a degree in animal behaviour (apparently there are a few on this forum??) the next best qualified person to take advice from is a vet?

I'll be pretty blunt with you on this one. Some vets take a bit of an interest in behaviour, and work alongside qualified behaviourists to establish whether there are medical interactions affecting a dog's behaviour, and if necessary prescribing appropriate psychoactive medication.
But they are in the minority.
Many vets have no more expertise than your average dog owner. There are certain things that owners and vets say about why dogs do x, y and z that exposes their lack of knowledge. I'm afraid your vet is one of them. His talk of your pup finding its place in the pack means that he's working off some very outdated and disproven ideas.

For what it's worth, I would tread carefully about getting a young pup, particularly because your dog has demonstrated that she could take or leave other dogs. Puppies are a pain in the arse for older dogs, there are quite a few threads on this forum from owners who are lamenting the same decision.
I think, on balance, that the proportion of older dogs that become rejuvenated by having a pup around is quite a lot smaller than the proportion who'd thank you not to foist a puppy on them.
You don't know until you try, but your description of how she feels about other dogs makes her more likely to belong to the second category. For this reason, fostering is,a win-win situation.
One thing I will strongly advise if you decide to go ahead (I think you've already made up your mind though!).. Do not get a female pup. The chances of running into trouble with two females when the younger one reaches sexual maturity, spayed or not, is significantly higher than when you introduce a dog of the opposite sex.
For what it's worth, this advice is from one of those qualified behaviourists

BenEadir

FlowerGarden wrote: »

In fairness OP you are the one that came to this forum to ask for advice. The majority of people responded to you in good faith to say that in general older dogs to do not like puppies and it would not be in the best interest of your dog to get one, its not what you wanted to hear and you have been borderline sarcastic in your replies. If you are a follower of this forum you would know that the regular posters always have the best interest of the animals at heart and are not trying to rain on your parade, they are giving you the benefit of their vast experience as you asked them to do in the first place.

Hi FlowerGarden,

Apologies if my replies are coming across to you as sarcastic, that is not my intention.

I challenged the following statement from ShaShaBear "No offence OP but I would not be listening to a vets advice on this matter, they are not usually known for their expertise in behavioural quarters.

There are many more qualified people who post on this forum who will be able to advise."

I thought totally dismissing the input of a vet was a strange attitude to have but was interested to engage with the "many more qualified" people on here. I'm more than happy to take input from people with experience as many of the posters who have been kind enough to share their own experience have but "more qualified" than a vet is a different matter and so far, unless I'm missing something, I haven't seen any input whatsoever from anyone more qualified than a vet.

It's easy for people to dismiss someone who actually has a high level of relevant qualifications but to do so in favour of many more qualified people who don't seem to even exist in Ireland (if there's no such training here) needs to questioned and that's what I was doing.

I don't want to derail the thread with this but I find it really annoying when people make uninformed claims they can't stand over.

BenEadir

DBB wrote: »

For what it's worth, I would tread carefully about getting a young pup, particularly because your dog has demonstrated that she could take or leave other dogs. Puppies are a pain in the arse for older dogs, there are quite a few threads on this forum from owners who are lamenting the same decision.
I think, on balance, that the proportion of older dogs that become rejuvenated by having a pup around is quite a lot smaller than the proportion who'd thank you not to foist a puppy on them.
You don't know until you try, but your description of how she feels about other dogs makes her more likely to belong to the second category. For this reason, fostering is,a win-win situation.
One thing I will strongly advise if you decide to go ahead (I think you've already made up your mind though!).. Do not get a female pup. The chances of running into trouble with two females when the younger one reaches sexual maturity, spayed or not, is significantly higher than when you introduce a dog of the opposite sex.
For what it's worth, this advice is from one of those qualified behaviourists

Thanks DBB, I appreciate your well made argument and (qualified ) advice. I am leaning towards introducing the pup and your point ref making sure it's a male is valuable. Thanks.

BenEadir

muddypaws wrote: »

I would run away screaming from any charity or rescue that rehomes pups at 6 weeks.

Link from charity seeking to rehome a 7 week old pup ideally suited to a home with another dog will be sent to you in a moment but the pup has been homed and the link is now dead. It was live last night be now gone, I promise!! In my research I saw a number of similar comments where the rescue/charity recommended the pup (usually older than 6 weeks in fairness but often in the 8-12 week range) would be best adopted into a home with another dog. I'll see if I can find a couple of the examples for you.

borderlinemeath

BenEadir wrote: »

Hi FlowerGarden,

Apologies if my replies are coming across to you as sarcastic, that is not my intention.

I challenged the following statement from ShaShaBear "No offence OP but I would not be listening to a vets advice on this matter, they are not usually known for their expertise in behavioural quarters.

There are many more qualified people who post on this forum who will be able to advise."

I thought totally dismissing the input of a vet was a strange attitude to have but was interested to engage with the "many more qualified" people on here. I'm more than happy to take input from people with experience as many of the posters who have been kind enough to share their own experience have but "more qualified" than a vet is a different matter and so far, unless I'm missing something, I haven't seen any input whatsoever from anyone more qualified than a vet.

It's easy for people to dismiss someone who actually has a high level of relevant qualifications but to do so in favour of many more qualified people who don't seem to even exist in Ireland (if there's no such training here) needs to questioned and that's what I was doing.

I don't want to derail the thread with this but I find it really annoying when people make uninformed claims they can't stand over.

In defence of the poster - you have really quoted her out of context.

ShashaBear recognised the language used by the vet by talking about hierarchy and place in the pack was outdated and this is what was pointed out. When a vet starts talking about pack leaders, places in hierarchy etc, it clearly shows they've been watching a bit too much Cesar Milan (a completely unqualified quack who got lucky with a tv show) rather than doing any extra curricular studies in companion animal behaviour, because that type of "hierarchy" that the vet spoke of is completely irrelevant to domesticated dogs. It was based on wolf behaviour and has since been disproven, but unfortunately the theory lives on in print and media.

And in fairness the doctor V psychologist comparison is very relevant. If I needed an operation I wouldn't be heading to a psychologist and vice versa if I needed therapy I wouldn't be heading to a surgeon! Vets are qualified in medical procedures and anatomy. They've little or no training in behaviour, or in nutrition, in fact most of their nutritional training comes from the food reps of the foods they stock. Yet people will blindly take advice of the vet that the food that they sell is "the best" when the brands that they usually stock are regularly described as adequate and overpriced.

fathead82

I got a terrier pup (by accident!) a few months ago. I have 3 dogs over the age of 10,2 of them ignore her & 1 of them has taken her under her wing. She sleeps, cleans & plays with the pup, it has defiantly given her a new lease of life.unfortunately she didn't manage to pass any of her good manners onto the pup but she will put her in her place if play gets too rough.
The other dogs ignore the pup & pup has learned to ignore them, they all hang around together but there is very little interaction between them.

muddypaws

BenEadir wrote: »

Link from charity seeking to rehome a 7 week old pup ideally suited to a home with another dog will be sent to you in a moment but the pup has been homed and the link is now dead. It was live last night be now gone, I promise!! In my research I saw a number of similar comments where the rescue/charity recommended the pup (usually older than 6 weeks in fairness but often in the 8-12 week range) would be best adopted into a home with another dog. I'll see if I can find a couple of the examples for you.

They may have had a 7 week old pup, but I doubt they would have rehomed him/her at that age. When someone applies, and then homechecks are done etc, it usually takes a couple of weeks at least.

8-12 weeks is grand for a pup to be adopted. Thanks for the examples by pm

BenEadir

borderlinemeath wrote: »

In defence of the poster - you have really quoted her out of context.

ShashaBear recognised the language used by the vet by talking about hierarchy and place in the pack was outdated and this is what was pointed out.

This may be my faux pas, I wasn't quoting the vet directly and I don't think he used the term "hierarchy" but the message I got was that introducing a very young pup (8-12 weeks) will help the older dog accept the younger dog as it isn't a threat (perceived or otherwise) when it is so young. As it happens the vet in question is in his early 30's so his knowledge and training should be bang up to date.

borderlinemeath wrote: »

When a vet starts talking about pack leaders, places in hierarchy etc, it clearly shows they've been watching a bit too much Cesar Milan (a completely unqualified quack who got lucky with a tv show)

That's an interesting point. Are you suggesting the results he (at least appears) to achieve are somehow related to the fact there is a camera crew present? Did the TV show not get offered to him because of what he was already doing?